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Weapons UnderGround >> ballistics, etc


6/4/12 11:13 AM
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BshMstr
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Edited: 06/04/12 11:16 AM
Member Since: 10/13/09
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hey, started this thread so as to stop hijacking what i started under the .380 thread (http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&thread=1994245&forum=25&page=1&pc=13)

anyway, been thinking a lot about stopping power in general lately.... i read a couple articles that discuss if there is not an immediate brain shutdown (CNS shot), then you are essentially trying to damage organs and cause blood loss (to cause the bad guy to pass out) or shatter enough bones to cause a mobility kill (can't keep coming due to borken limbs, spine, etc).

as a cop and soldier, i've seen some weird things with bullets, and am currently questioning some of the conventional dogma out there.

right now my big issue is with hollow points (HP) vs full metal jackets (FMJ). i've seen a handful of HP's traveling along bones, and not entering target areas, where i would've thought it would have been a lethal shot. as of right now, my thought is that while a FMJ won't expand, it will react more predictably...

a couple arguments i've seen in HP vs FMJ, are that FMJ's feed better in certain handguns (1911's mainly). i will say i've shot a lot of HP through my Glock, and never had a stoppage, so i'm not sure how big of an issue this is....but a stoppage can be a find ender, IMO.

on the flip side, i've heard people say they carry HP soley for the reduced liklihood of overpenetrating the target, and reduced ricochet potention with a missed shot to protect innocent bystanders. i respect this greatly, as this is an argument to reduce casualties... however, i've never personally seen a round overpenetrate into someone else.

my current issue with overpenetration is, some will argue that a HP expands, causing a wider wound channel. but if the bullet doesn't strike a vital organ, does it matter? i FMJ shoots through and through and collapses a lung, i think that would have a better result in stopping a threat.

anyway, looking for y'all thoughts and input, and i'd like to say i'm not a ballistics/firearms expert, so i appreciate your thoughts.

also, found this link by the FBI: http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2009/data/table_35.html

haven't had a chance to dig in to it completely, but it's interesting that 9mm seems to be the deadlist round to LEO...i suspect more due to the number of suspects that carry it, though.
6/4/12 1:56 PM
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Willybone
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In the context of my other .380 thread, I thought FMJ was still a decent choice for a self-defense round.
This is simply because the veolcity of a regular .380 round (not a +P) coming out a 2" barrel is so low that getting any penetration would be difficult.

Then, I decided to do a search on "ballistic penetration 380".
As you can see from the attached video, FMJ (round and flat nosed) rounds out of a 3.5" barrel, went through 19" of gel and then a few water jugs!

Wow! I had no idea.

6/4/12 2:01 PM
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Willybone
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For comparison, here's a video of the Critical Defense* rounds in a similar test.
This one doesn't go all the way through, and expands to a respectable .43".

I saw another test on YouTube that had a Critical Defense round penetrating only 4" of ballistics gel, but that was after already going through a set of beef ribs, including through the bone.



* - I'm not hung up on this brand, I was just trying to keep the comparison consistent.
6/4/12 9:48 PM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 06/04/12 9:52 PM
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Bullets do some weird things. FMJ's tend to over penetrate in just about every defensive caliber. How much of an issue that is depends on the circumstances of the shoot. If you're in a deserted parking lot at night when some punk attacks you with a knife, overpenetration probably won't be a big issue. But in a crowded mall with some lunatic with an assault rifle and jihad on his lips, a bullet going through his head and continuing on could potentially hit someone else. That little 380 in the vid went through 19" of synthetic flesh (an average of muscle and organs). If you hit a person in a soft spot, like the neck or kidney area, it's still gonna have a lot of oomph coming out the other side. A HP or a pre fragmented round has a better chance of mushrooming or fragmenting. Does more damage to the target and doesn't go as far.

Massad Ayoob has some stories about people shooting someone (good shoots), over penetrating and hitting someone else, then getting sued for it.

I know Chuck Taylor wrote some articles about him using 45's on man sized game (large goats, deer, hogs etc) and having overpenetration with a lot of the HP ammunition of the day.

It really boils down to personal preference and what your gun feeds best. Personally, I carry HPs in my glocks because they feed quite well. If they didn't feed well, I'd probably go with a corbon powerball.
6/5/12 10:06 AM
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BshMstr
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seems to me that the Corbon Powerball and Hornady defense rounds seem to be (while pricey) the best of both worlds...
6/8/12 12:42 AM
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BshMstr
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another quick note i stumbled into...

lethality in the US from gunshot wounds is about 30%.....so shoot 4 times. or more.
6/8/12 12:53 AM
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BshMstr
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a site with some interesting data: http://38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html

i actually use Corbon DPX in my off-duty gun....nice to know, after reading this.
6/8/12 1:49 AM
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BshMstr
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BshMstr - seems to me that the Corbon Powerball and Hornady defense rounds seem to be (while pricey) the best of both worlds...


did some surfin on the net on these two, and they both do not have the best reputations...

Hornady has had some serious issues with failure to fire and underexpansion.

Powerball has had some issues with underpentration.


as of right now, i think i'll stick with my DPX, but keep researching....
6/9/12 11:46 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 Ballistics is NOT an exact science. The Nazis "tried" to work with actual human beings BUT their methods were flawed. The use of ballistic gelatin leaves much to be desired in the context of reality.

Body mass and caliber alone do not constitute "Ballistics". What must be reconciled is:

Intention
Emotion
Motivation
Pain Tolerance
Distance
Inertia (mental and physical)
Spirituality
Drug Use
Physical Fitness

This is a partial list of elements and dynamics that can alter conventional ideas about caliber and stopping power.

SHOT PLACEMENT seems to be most important. A .22 in the eye socket stops a motivated/ideal provoked opponent more than a .45 in the palm of the hand (in general).

A moral/civil and ethical society will find out more about ballistics thru progressive empirical investigation than thru "overt experientation".

This is the hallmark of a good guy trying to operate against a bad guy framework.

6/10/12 10:33 PM
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BshMstr
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Demitrius Barbito -  Ballistics is NOT an exact science. The Nazis "tried" to work with actual human beings BUT their methods were flawed. The use of ballistic gelatin leaves much to be desired in the context of reality.

Body mass and caliber alone do not constitute "Ballistics". What must be reconciled is:

Intention
Emotion
Motivation
Pain Tolerance
Distance
Inertia (mental and physical)
Spirituality
Drug Use
Physical Fitness

This is a partial list of elements and dynamics that can alter conventional ideas about caliber and stopping power.

SHOT PLACEMENT seems to be most important. A .22 in the eye socket stops a motivated/ideal provoked opponent more than a .45 in the palm of the hand (in general).

A moral/civil and ethical society will find out more about ballistics thru progressive empirical investigation than thru "overt experientation".

This is the hallmark of a good guy trying to operate against a bad guy framework.
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well, ballistics is technically what a bullet (or any projectile) does, and why it does that.

from this list (Intention, Emotion, Motivation, Pain Tolerance, Distance, Inertia (mental and physical), Spirituality, Drug Use, Physical Fitness), there are only a handful of things that i can control. for me to worry about something i can't control from a bad guy is kinda dumb, really...

can it affect what happens in an altercation? yeah. can i do anything about his/her drug use, or intentions? no.


however, i do agree about shot placement's importance. but like the point i made before, lethality rates are around 30%, so another obvious factor to me is getting mutliple shots on target. this to me is something i can control, and therefore place training inportance on.

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