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6/5/12 5:20 PM
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reverend john
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I just wondered if anyone thought about the fact that the bible is far more clear that anyone who divorces for any other reason than their spouse cheated, and gets remarried is committing adultery. In other words they are living in a constant state of sin.

Yet in the vast majority of our churches remarried couples are not only welcomed, but are allowed to take positions of leadership.

Yet if you suggest that those people need to stop living together, sleeping together or whatever you are a legalistic jerk. Isn't that complete hypocrisy? Especially when Jesus never even mentions homosexuality, yet does mention divorce specifically.

rev
6/6/12 3:05 AM
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TheHawker
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Rev, Leviticus says it's an abomination, end of story.

*sends wife away from tribe during her menstrual cycle*
6/6/12 8:49 AM
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Ridgeback
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TheHawker - Rev, Leviticus says it's an abomination, end of story.

*sends wife away from tribe during her menstrual cycle*

 This was just plain smart.  Actually, I bet a lot of those women appreciated the week off.  
6/6/12 10:13 AM
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reverend john
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isnt is strange that Jesus says, "Moses gave you divorce because of the hardness of your hearts but it was not in the beginning so"?

In other words, God adapted to the hardness of their hearts???

I know that pushes the envelope a bit, but sounds like what Jesus is saying

rev
6/6/12 9:02 PM
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colubrid1
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reverend john - isnt is strange that Jesus says, "Moses gave you divorce because of the hardness of your hearts but it was not in the beginning so"?

In other words, God adapted to the hardness of their hearts???

I know that pushes the envelope a bit, but sounds like what Jesus is saying

rev



Jesus says "Moses" gave permission for divorce. Jesus clears that up when He said from the beginning it was not so. . "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Not sure if your post is about homosexuality or about divorce?
I made a post recently about 2 christians getting a divorce and how they can't reconcile or bargain with God to get remarried IN HIS COVENANT AGAIN. That is why the disciples said it is better not to get married.


if you are a beleiver and divorce your christain wife or husband. You have to stay single or get reconciled to your christain wife or husband. You can't enter into another covenant a second time whilst leaving the other.
6/6/12 9:03 PM
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colubrid1
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Okay I think i see where you are going with this.
6/7/12 12:32 AM
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Lahi
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Edited: 06/07/12 12:54 AM
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It seems like so many churches have lost all perspective on this. I thought Greg Boyd really nailed it when he said that we've christened this the deal breaker sin, but aren't too worried about things like things like greed, gluttony, and not caring for the poor, that the NT is much more concerned with.

What's really surprised me is how strongly people have disagreed with me when I've shared Ridge's story of the gay orthodox Christian. But divorce? Not a problem; certainly they would never tell a divorcee they weren't welcome to worship. Greed? I can't get people to listen when I ask why we don't hold Christian leaders who neglect, and sometimes abuse the poor, accountable.

I really struggle to get this.
6/7/12 1:31 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Rev, great point.

There are lots of people welcome in churches today who are shaking up with someone they are not married to. I guess if you hide it and look like everyone else, you are welcome. If you act effeminate (which does not mean you are gay) you are a freak....
6/7/12 1:32 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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It is funny, Christians do not want to be around homosexual Christians who say it is ok to marry and have gay sex in a life long relationship. Yet Christians will be around divorcees all the time who are in a constant state of adultery.

I totally understand what Rev is saying....
6/7/12 12:04 PM
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reverend john
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yeah I understand what I am saying too :)

:)

rev
6/9/12 6:36 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Honestly I think the notions of there being a thing called "Christianity" is a fiction.  There is no Christianity, only a myriad of responses to the life and teachings of Jesus.  The communities that reject homosexuals in the way described above aren't simply representational of all Christians but are nevertheless misinformed.  They are their own religions and the way they do things is tied intimately to their teachings.  

Some groups that claim to follow Jesus reject any person with same sex attractions.  Other religious groups that claim to follow Jesus accept these people openly, but challenge them to do battle with their passions as all members of their body are called to do.  Other groups say it was all a mistake and there is no sin in same sex acts (although they might teach that same sex couples should try to be monogamous).  

I think we need to concede this and start conceding that these different religions really have nothing to say to each other.  It is silly for a post-modern "Christian Anarchist" to criticize a black Southern Baptist pastor for coveting his Cadillac.  In the latter's tradition it is fine for the way they interpret the life and teachings of Jesus.  They see no contradiction.  

Honestly, the pretense behind "Christianity" is that any person claiming to follow Christ is under the authority of teachers from all these different religions.  It is a fiction that is useful for political and financial reasons (as well as truly charitable reasons) but that doesn't change the fact that it is a fiction.  

6/9/12 9:04 PM
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Grakman
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Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery, and taught the woman at the well who had seven husbands and was living with a man to whom she was not married.

How many Christians eat meat with blood still in it, or are circumcised for religious reasons? Didn't the first council at Jerusalem forbid eating meat sacrificed to idols and with the blood still in it, and dispense with the rite of circumcision altogether?

Didn't David commit adultery when he married Bathsheba? He didn't have to divorce or remain single after marrying her.

And when Jesus said call no man father for you have one Father in heaven, what was that about? Was that a command or rhetorical flourish? Phone Post
6/10/12 12:15 AM
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Ridgeback
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 The different responses among different Christianities seem to be 1. same sex attraction is an abomination in and of itself and people who have it should be shunned 2. same sex attraction is one of an endless array of ways that people are fallen in their sexuality and same sex fornication is just another form of sexual sin that a Christian will have to struggle with like any other sinful tendency 3. same sex attraction is a healthy alternative to heterosexuality and so those who are born with this difference do not sin when they engage in same sex acts and they should not only be in full communion with the community but they can be in positions of leadership while openly in sexual relationships.  

I do think response 1. is conflated with response 2. by those who advocate response 3. and see responses 1 and 2 as equally a case of bigotry and religious intolerance.  
6/16/12 9:19 PM
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reverend john
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a lot of people are gay... period

therefore a lot of people that are gay are Christian, and since the church by and large thinks it is the most heinous of sins... those gay people would try to stay in the closet, and hopefully get "healed" of it. I find that there would not be many that would go to the church to help them not be gay anymore. And living in the church for many many years, I can say there is by and large no greater percentage of gay people in the church than outside, even the ones in the closet.

of course you are probably a troll trying to start shit, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt

rev
6/17/12 11:35 AM
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zealot66
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 One thing to balance the view of the bible and homesexual marraige is that you wont find ancient societies that have gay marraige. It didn't exist. Sure they were partners and known consorts but gay marraige didn't exist to my knowledege. it wasn't an issue because there weren't plebes in the street demanding that they have rights to marry Antonius and Maxmillius
6/17/12 12:55 PM
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colubrid1
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http://truthmagazine.com/archives/volume32/GOT032165.html
7/7/12 10:50 AM
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Lahi
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Edited: 07/07/12 10:51 AM
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A lot of Christians who I know don't think divorce is wrong, or that getting rich, and running a company focused only on making money (forget the needs of the employees), is wrong either. I know straight Christians who have no problem lusting after women. But the NT is much more concerned with these issues than with homosexuality.

To tell you the truth I think there are probably things that most of us do that we don't feel like are wrong, and that we consciously justify. How many of us really feel bad when we gossip, aside from worrying what people will think about us if we get caught? I know I struggle with a lot of this stuff.

I still think we have singled this one thing out, become preoccupied with it, and really marginalized a group of people who we should be reaching out to in the process.
7/7/12 10:58 AM
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Lahi
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And I think there is a world of difference between sex acts involving 2 consenting adults (of whatever gender), and pedophilia. IMO comparing homosexual relationships to sex acts involving a child is not right, or fair. If you're going to say that gay acts are a perversion, you have to say that all straight acts outside of a covenanted, Christian marriage are perversions too. So pretty much, the majority of us I would bet are in the same boat here, gay or straight. (And Jesus was very clear that he counted thoughts as sinful acts too).
7/7/12 2:49 PM
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Lahi
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Can a wealthy CEO of a company that is all about making money be a Christian? Living in luxury and paying their low-end employees minimum wage, with crappy benefits? What about someone who gossips all the time, or who eats a lot and very unhealthfully? Or who lusts regularly, and doesn't always make a big effort to surrender that to God?

I would bet that many of us struggle with gossip and lust, anger and unforgiveness, and a whole lot of things scripture is very clear about. That doesn't make us all evil through and through, or mean that God cuts us off or gives up on us. We see the disciples struggling with a lot of things, some that they didn't seem to have a clue were wrong, even as Jesus used them to found his Church and Kingdom here on earth. Why can we be patient with our brothers and sisters when they aren't perfect in other areas, but this issue is a deal-breaker?

I would say too that same-sex attraction is more than just a temptation, just like being straight is. It is a deep and defining part of one's personality, whether they are celibate, working towards that, or active in a relationship.
7/7/12 3:26 PM
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Lahi
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I've seen people who are Christians run a company, get very wealthy off it and live quite well themselves, but who aren't concerned at all with how those who work for them are living. I've worked for companies run by Christian denominations where this was the case. A CEO making 650,000 a year, and a housekeeper making minimum wage. It just doesn't seem to be very Kingdom-like to me. I think there is a place for everyone. Not everyone is meant to be a PHD, or to hold a job that society deems prestigious. There is nothing wrong with being an honest and hardworking housekeeper, manual laborer, bus driver, or whatever. I've been fortunate to meet some very wise and Godly people who are also very blue-collar, and never went beyond high-school. I think it clearly goes against Scripture to not pay a living wage to ones workers, especially while getting rich yourself at the same time.

Here in the San Francisco bay area, minimum wage is just not enough for a decent standard of living for a single person, let alone someone with children or a family. I believe that Christians are very clearly called to treat workers with fairness and respect, and to care for the poor in our communities. If I'm making money but not doing this, I believe it is very wrong. I think Jesus and the early Church taught this clearly.

There are Christians, and in fact whole movements of Christians, who would disagree with this very strongly. I think they are really, really off here. But as important of an issue as I think this is - and as much as I feel the need to speak out on it - I don't think its my job to tell them that they aren't really Christians, and should be thrown out of church unless they change.

I would say the same with gossiping. The Bible talks a lot about that, and many Christians (me included) often act like it is just fine. I think we've lost our way when we do this, but I don't think God has given up on us, or that we are evil through and through, and should be cast out as unbelievers.

I'm a conservative when it comes to my beliefs about God's call for sexual behaviour to be in a life-long, committed relationship between a man and a woman. As much as I am convicted of that, and as much as a struggle to live that out in my own life, I don't see that making this a line in the sand issue with my gay or straight friends is the thing I should be doing as a believer.

When it comes to my Christian friends who have remarried and divorced, sometimes for reasons that don't seem faithful to scripture, I just don't see my job as a follower of Jesus being to tell them they're not really Christians. And I don't see that I should be treating my LGBT friends this way either. I struggle every day, and need a lot of grace myself. I am convinced that like Billy Graham said "its God's job to judge, the Spirit's job to convict, and our job to love." When we make this one issue a line in the sand one, but are patient with Christians who struggle (or sometimes openly practice) all sorts of other things the Bible is very clear about, I think we've lost our way.








7/7/12 3:30 PM
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Lahi
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Edited: 07/07/12 3:39 PM
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Are there some sins that need to be strongly and directly addressed by the Christian community? I would say for sure. If I am struggling with lust, I don't think it would be appropriate for my community to deal with it in the same way as if I am cheating on my wife. I think both fall short of God's ideal, and cut us off from Him. But they also affect the community in very different ways, and have to be dealt with differently.
7/7/12 3:36 PM
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Lahi
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Not that I am against education at all, but a lot of the people who have been great in the Kingdom have been pretty low on the totem pole when it comes to the World's standards of success and greatness.
7/7/12 4:46 PM
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reverend john
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so are you saying that people that divorce and remarry know they are wrong, and continue to do it, but its ok because at least they admit its a sin that they plan on committing two or three nights a week? Cause that is what it sounds like you are saying.

Also, Jesus is quite clear that we are not to store up treasures for ourselves on earth. That we are to trust God and give our belongings to the poor. That we are to be generous. That we are to treat others as more important than ourselves. So how can you do all of that and pay yourself 300 times what your average employee gets paid? That is sin. And not only is it sin, but it is sin that people continue in each and every day, and plan to continue in. And guess what... they deny that it is sin as well.

How many times did Jesus say that your obedience to him is directly tied to your wallet? Quite a few. How many times did he speak about homosexuality? not once, not a single time. Doesn't mean its all fine and good, but it means he was not as concerned about it as the church seems to be.

rev
7/7/12 5:01 PM
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Lahi
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I just don't see how we can keep the Kingdom out of the workplace, treating someone like they have less value because they don't have a degree or title. That really bothers me.
7/7/12 5:09 PM
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reverend john
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it all bothers me brother, its the two kingdom ethic. There is the "spiritual kingdom" and then there is "real life"

its bullshit of the highest order. We call for the authority and integrity of the scriptures... as long as it doesn't effect my own desire for security and a sense of self worthy.

rev

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