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7/7/12 6:42 PM
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reverend john
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No he shouldn't but a CEO shouldn't get over three hundred times what the average worker makes either. Jesus very clearly says you cannot serve God and money

rev Phone Post
7/8/12 12:07 PM
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Grakman
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For those who believe there is nothing wrong with being wealthy, does it matter I'd that wealth is built on donations? I'm thinking here of people like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, etc. Phone Post
7/8/12 12:08 PM
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Lahi
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I think that many Christian-run hospitals and businesses are way, way out of balance when it comes to worker pay.

The denomination I grew up in has a long history of running colleges and hospitals. At some point, the hospitals began operating independently of the church. Now, in most of of them, you have CEO's making high six-figures, and (at least in the ones near me) "low-end" employees being paid terribly, and generally treated as if they are just replaceable bodies who really don't matter.

The colleges, though, are still run by the church. At the one down the road from me, I don't think professors are making much more than 50,000 (pretty sure some are less). Granted its a tight knit community, and they are also given food discounts, and access to affordable housing. But they still manage to to run nationally ranked, and in several cases world-class, programs.

All that to say that I think we need to be approaching this stuff with a mission mind-set. I don't think we should be so quick to compromise with the world here, and put our focus on making money rather than furthering the Kingdom.

Most of the people in the 'unskilled' departments at the hospital where I work aren't lazy. I'm sure every pay grade has people who just want to punch a clock and go home, but most of the grounds keepers, house keepers, maintenance, and security who I know, are hard working people with families and bills. I don't mean to sound condescending here at all, but I think the reality is that not everyone is meant for college and 'prestigious' jobs (of course some are, we need teachers, doctors, and nurses too), and that's OK. And not everyone is meant for the more blue-collar jobs either. There ought to be room for all of us with our particular abilities and talents, especially in the Kingdom.

I don't mean to sound personal on this thread at all, I think I come off that way here with certain subjects I'm very convicted about. I have good friends who are church-goers, who have told me "there's no place for that 'Sermon On the Mount' stuff in the business world." We are still friends, but that thinking really, really bothers me.
7/9/12 6:07 PM
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zealot66
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zealot66 -  One thing to balance the view of the bible and homesexual marraige is that you wont find ancient societies that have gay marraige. It didn't exist. Sure they were partners and known consorts but gay marraige didn't exist to my knowledege. it wasn't an issue because there weren't plebes in the street demanding that they have rights to marry Antonius and Maxmillius

 I think that I am going to reply to my own reply because no one else did. The absence of Jesus speaking on homosexuality doesn't condone it. Jesus doesn't talk about pedophilia or greek pederasty but I doubt he condoned it. Rev, we've discussed it and you know I feel that homosexuality to me isn't a choice so I don't judge sexual orientation but I still find it hard to make a biblical argument to support gay marraige as valid. 

I also really don't think much about it. I believe that civil contracts or unions are appropriate and fair but God's model was adam and eve. The bible doesn't have a gay couple unless I'm missing something.
7/9/12 7:39 PM
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reverend john
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The bible also supports slavery and subservience of women. To say that Jesus didn't speak about pederasty is actually a falsity and misdirection. He did say that any who injur one of these little ones it would be better for a millstone to be around their neck. To tie in consenting adult relationship to victimization for the sake of making a point is not cool

And my point was from the start if it is a sin then why doesn't the church stand against other sins that are specifically called out by Jesus?

Rev Phone Post
7/9/12 11:01 PM
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5pointer
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lol at homosexual christians.. whats next.. im an adulterous christian, or im a pedophile christian.. just love me and realize this is how god made me..

ninja please!

7/10/12 7:30 AM
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PastorJosh
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reverend john - I just wondered if anyone thought about the fact that the bible is far more clear that anyone who divorces for any other reason than their spouse cheated, and gets remarried is committing adultery. In other words they are living in a constant state of sin.

Yet in the vast majority of our churches remarried couples are not only welcomed, but are allowed to take positions of leadership.

Yet if you suggest that those people need to stop living together, sleeping together or whatever you are a legalistic jerk. Isn't that complete hypocrisy? Especially when Jesus never even mentions homosexuality, yet does mention divorce specifically.

rev
Actually what you're doing is called "misdirection". A common tactic used by wolves in sheep's clothing. Phone Post
7/10/12 10:03 AM
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reverend john
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Gee, I wonder what the pharisees called Jesus, and the apostles?

rev
7/10/12 10:11 AM
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reverend john
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5pointer - lol at homosexual christians.. whats next.. im an adulterous christian, or im a pedophile christian.. just love me and realize this is how god made me..

ninja please!



but that was my point, the church has regularly accepted remarried Christians into its ranks, and even into leadership. Jesus is very clear that anyone remarries is committing adultery. This is meaningfully and continuously sinning, with no repentance. Everyone agrees that we all sin, but people say,"yes we all sin, but we repent and don't plan on continuing to sin". Yet, that is exactly what the remarried person is doing.

So... why do we accept the one and not the other? Aren't we infact saying "adulterous Christians"?

rev
7/10/12 11:22 AM
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TheHawker
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Josh, do you think Jesus was crucified for preaching sexual morality?
7/10/12 10:04 PM
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Grakman
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At the risk of sounding like a Sadducee, I have a question about adultery and divorce.

If a person marries, divorces and marries another, and then repents and becomes a Christian, should they divorce or, since the Lord hates divorce, should they remain married but never have sex? Is it the greater sin to remain in the second marriage or to divorce? What if there are children in the second marriage? Since the Lord says it is better to have a millstone hung around one's neck than to harm one of the little ones, would the millstone of an adulterous marriage be better than a divorce and sending the children off to a single parent and weekend visits?
7/13/12 5:16 AM
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effinggoof
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Reading this thread, and Reverend John's comparison between divorce, remarriage and homosexuality, I concede he makes a valid point.

The valid point is not that homosexuality is acceptable as a Christian, but rather that protestant Christianity has sold out to mainstream society on the issue of divorce.

The solution here is not to become more liberal and tolerate or even sanction homosexuality, but to become more conservative and adhere to the biblical teachings on divorce.

7/13/12 12:49 PM
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Grakman
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effinggoof - The solution here is not to become more liberal and tolerate or even sanction homosexuality, but to become more conservative and adhere to the biblical teachings on divorce.


So, what do you do with people who are divorced and remarried? Kick them out of the church and handle it like Paul recommended handling other immoral behavior in I Corinthians 5? If a person is divorced and remarried before they become a Christian, are they acceptable or is their continuing sin of adultery enough to exclude them? If they have small children but are willing to divorce and remain celibate forever, should the church recommend divorcing a second time to end the adulterous relationship, even though divorce itself is a sin (except in cases of adultery?) and the children of the marriage would be adversely affected (harm none of these little ones)?

And does remaining in an adulterous second marriage or getting a divorce put a Christian in danger of eternal hell fire?
7/23/12 4:32 PM
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CJJScout
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Great book: "Washed and Waiting".
7/24/12 9:28 AM
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colubrid1
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Grakman - 
effinggoof - The solution here is not to become more liberal and tolerate or even sanction homosexuality, but to become more conservative and adhere to the biblical teachings on divorce.


So, what do you do with people who are divorced and remarried? Kick them out of the church and handle it like Paul recommended handling other immoral behavior in I Corinthians 5? If a person is divorced and remarried before they become a Christian, are they acceptable or is their continuing sin of adultery enough to exclude them? If they have small children but are willing to divorce and remain celibate forever, should the church recommend divorcing a second time to end the adulterous relationship, even though divorce itself is a sin (except in cases of adultery?) and the children of the marriage would be adversely affected (harm none of these little ones)?

And does remaining in an adulterous second marriage or getting a divorce put a Christian in danger of eternal hell fire?


With marrige Gos is not concerened with two non-chrsitian that enter into His covenant since they don't even beleive in Him.

What he is concerned with are 2 chrsitians being married. he forbids a christian marrying a non christian as the covenant is 3 way. but even in that case the beleiver is not free unless the unbelever leaves. In that case He says "let them leave" that you are free in such case.

But with 2 chrsitian the marrige covenant is for life unless adultery is commited. Not leaving or abandonment. Not a judgement from alegal court. But ADULTERY!

So if one chrisian leaves the other must remain unmarried until he/she hears otherwise ("as opposed to "let them leave' as with an unbelever).

If a person truly belongs to God He will chastize those He loves . Repentance in divorce is not saying "I am sorry to God". That is like I hit the rev over the head and aplogise to you.

Repentance in marrige is to go back to the spouse and ask to reconcile. If there was no adultery the spouse has to take you back. If you commited adutery it is up to the spouse to decide wether they will forgive and continue on with the marriage.

Should the spouse who commited adultery who tried to reconcile be rejected or the spouse they were married to is now remarried. The offending spouse is not to get remarried. They are in that state of adultery and any future marriage is not recognized in Gods eyes.


That is why the apostles said who Jesus "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” because people WANT to divorce , yet can't .

Bottom line is if you are a christian. God will chastize you and only let you go so far. You will repent. Repentence in marriage is not like other sins. You are stuck that way until you go back to the spouse and try to reconcile. Saying i am sorry to God and ignoring the victim is not repentance because it is Gods covenant bewteen the 3 of you.


As far as bringing the children into it. I go back to whether the person who commited adultery and then had children with the adulterous spouse (anyone who marries the adulterer becomes an adulterer themseleves)...was ever a christian to begin with? If they were , well, then it does not matter if the children were conceived by one or ten different spouses. Going back to preserving a family that God does not recognize because of sin and then say well God will forgive adultery w/o repentance is not biblical and is heresy. What happens when you have a couple of gay people who adopted a child? Do youtink God allows exception for them to be living together because of the child?


Repentance is mentioned.. I don't know how many times in the NT? But a lot. Then most of the OT talks about Gods wrath. We are saved from His wrath. Not from sin. The churches message today is use the grace card by saying a prayer and live you life as rebellious as you want because you don't need to repent because all past, present and future sins are forgiven...

But god chastizes those that are truly His. The problem is not what people beleive. The problem is people don't want to be told what to do.




7/24/12 9:45 AM
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colubrid1
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"And does remaining in an adulterous second marriage or getting a divorce put a Christian in danger of eternal hell fire?"

In a marriage between two christians ... yes! Unless you repent!

My wife is divorcing me now (Aug 6th is final judgement in mans court) and does not have a biblical reason. So lets say she gets remarried in six months and has a child. Whats does that mean for me? I stayed faithful. What week, what day what hour did she stop being my wife in Gods eyes? What night did i go to bed and wake up in the moring and my feet hit the floor and she was not my wife in gods eyes any more?

if she comes back and is tuly repentant. I may choose to forgive her, or not. But if i don't. Does that mean now her second marrige is not recognized in Gods eyes? All she has to do is go back to her adulterous marrige and now it is not adulterous any more/

God is the same yesterday, today and tommorow. not one tittle of the law has passed away. Jesus will forgive. But in marrige...IN THE MARRIGE COVENANT BETWEEN TWO CHRISTIANS!!!! it involves a covenant with God. So you are tied up for life.

This is why i no longer beleive people should get married for feelings. Feelings come and go. People fall into and out of love.
It is a wrong reason to get married because of feelings. It is about honoring god and being obedient to Him and your spouse.

people hate the word OBEDIENCE! They want to hear aboiut forgivness and get their ears tickled to what they want to hear so they can do what they want to do..

7/24/12 10:14 AM
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reverend john
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Sell all you have give to the poor and follow me

Love your enemies

Forgive a brother who repents seven times seventy

I hope you will not be hypocritical in your legalistic understanding of obedience

Rev Phone Post
7/24/12 10:49 AM
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Caleb
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reverend john - I just wondered if anyone thought about the fact that the bible is far more clear that anyone who divorces for any other reason than their spouse cheated, and gets remarried is committing adultery. In other words they are living in a constant state of sin.

Yet in the vast majority of our churches remarried couples are not only welcomed, but are allowed to take positions of leadership.

Yet if you suggest that those people need to stop living together, sleeping together or whatever you are a legalistic jerk. Isn't that complete hypocrisy? Especially when Jesus never even mentions homosexuality, yet does mention divorce specifically.

rev
I think you bring up a great topic and I haven't personally reconcilled divorce from the scriptures yet in my soul, but are you saying Jesus doesn't mention homosexuality in the bible, or that it is not mentioned at all in the bible? 

If man is not to re-marry and he does and is living in constant sin, that would be the same thing to me as a homosexual couple or 2 adults living together who aren't married. But you are right in that MANY MANY churches (as in buildings people go to)  have sold themselves out to mainstream America and try to be PC which is clearly wrong. 



 
7/24/12 11:05 AM
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colubrid1
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"Sell all you have give to the poor and follow me."

I do give everything. I am poor by U.S. standards. I think anyone can say they could follow Him more.

"Love your enemies"
That is a hard one. My wife belongs to me. So how can i love the man who sleeps with her?

"Forgive a brother who repents seven times seventy'
A brother, yes!

"I hope you will not be hypocritical in your legalistic understanding"

If you hate sin you love me. If you love sin you hate me.
7/24/12 11:41 AM
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reverend john
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You have not sold everything you have and given it to the poor, you know this.

Nor have you loved your enemies.

We live in a perpetual state of sin and obedience, grace and mercy as well as being seated with Christ.

But let me ask you a question: who did Jesus say was going to hell? I am not asking about eternal life, but who did he specifically say were going to hell?

rev
7/24/12 11:49 AM
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reverend john
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Caleb - 
reverend john - I just wondered if anyone thought about the fact that the bible is far more clear that anyone who divorces for any other reason than their spouse cheated, and gets remarried is committing adultery. In other words they are living in a constant state of sin.

Yet in the vast majority of our churches remarried couples are not only welcomed, but are allowed to take positions of leadership.

Yet if you suggest that those people need to stop living together, sleeping together or whatever you are a legalistic jerk. Isn't that complete hypocrisy? Especially when Jesus never even mentions homosexuality, yet does mention divorce specifically.

rev
I think you bring up a great topic and I haven't personally reconcilled divorce from the scriptures yet in my soul, but are you saying Jesus doesn't mention homosexuality in the bible, or that it is not mentioned at all in the bible? 

If man is not to re-marry and he does and is living in constant sin, that would be the same thing to me as a homosexual couple or 2 adults living together who aren't married. But you are right in that MANY MANY churches (as in buildings people go to)  have sold themselves out to mainstream America and try to be PC which is clearly wrong. 



 


Jesus never mentions homosexuality. Now I know he never mentioned lots of things, however, homosexuality was part of the culture, it is a bit weird that he would not have come across a gay man and it is also a bit weird that nothing would have been recorded about it, but we cannot base anything on what he did not say. It is just very apparent that Jesus did say something about marriage, yet we disobey it, while not giving grace to others that Jesus does not speak about. As to the rest of the bible we have some old testament passages, these are problematic as we do not accept much of the old covenant, including diet, worship days (which was extremely important) circumcision which was again extremely important ect. So we wind up in the new testament, and we have only one passage that is not very ambiguous in the original language. So we build a doctrine that condemns an entire people group upon one scripture, which has an alternative interpretation that actually makes much more sense to me. Anyways, my point was not to justify homosexuality, but rather to show the hypocrisy of our churches.

As far as politically correct... isn't is the other way around? in the incredibly liberal California they just struck down a law enabling gay marriage. Isn't it popular opinion that gay people should not have equal rights? At least at this point is certainly is not mainstream.

rev
7/24/12 12:32 PM
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colubrid1
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John,
If a pedophile was having sex with adolscent daughter and you could do nothing about it legally. Would you go on loving that enemy? How is that different from marriage and adultery?

He said it would be better if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

That does not sound like loving your enemies? Yet Jesus said that to.

We all fall short as christians. but there is that jezubal sprit running around in the church that makes people fake christians or so called christians.

7/24/12 12:34 PM
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colubrid1
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And i know what you are going to say..but there are a lot of fake christians or "supposed christians" and that is where we don't connect on certain issues.

If someone belongs to Him He will only let them get so far. then if they don't repent. He turns them over to satan. There are a lot of Jezubel spirits in these last days that come in to homes, the church, workplace ect. Gods word in its entirerty is what we need to rely on. Yes we all fall short. A dog has babies they are dogs. A sinner has a baby they are sinners. God has a son , He is God.
7/24/12 12:39 PM
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reverend john
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colubrid1 - John,
If a pedophile was having sex with adolscent daughter and you could do nothing about it legally. Would you go on loving that enemy? How is that different from marriage and adultery?

He said it would be better if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

That does not sound like loving your enemies? Yet Jesus said that to.

We all fall short as christians. but there is that jezubal sprit running around in the church that makes people fake christians or so called christians.



you love your child but you punish them. You love your child but you do not let them continue to hurt your other child. The issue is your heart, I have not heard much love in your heart, just a lot of judgment.

But you did not answer my question, who did Jesus say were going to hell?

rev
7/24/12 12:46 PM
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Grakman
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colubrid1 - My wife is divorcing me now (Aug 6th is final judgement in mans court) and does not have a biblical reason.

if she comes back and is tuly repentant. I may choose to forgive her, or not. But if i don't.


Aren't you required to forgive her if she repents? Seventy time seven, remember?

I'm no psychiatrist but it seems like your views on divorce and forgiveness may be skewed right now because of your personal circumstances.

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