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7/24/12 12:49 PM
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Caleb
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Jesus never mentions homosexuality. Now I know he never mentioned lots of things, however, homosexuality was part of the culture, it is a bit weird that he would not have come across a gay man and it is also a bit weird that nothing would have been recorded about it, but we cannot base anything on what he did not say. It is just very apparent that Jesus did say something about marriage, yet we disobey it, while not giving grace to others that Jesus does not speak about. As to the rest of the bible we have some old testament passages, these are problematic as we do not accept much of the old covenant, including diet, worship days (which was extremely important) circumcision which was again extremely important ect. So we wind up in the new testament, and we have only one passage that is not very ambiguous in the original language. So we build a doctrine that condemns an entire people group upon one scripture, which has an alternative interpretation that actually makes much more sense to me. Anyways, my point was not to justify homosexuality, but rather to show the hypocrisy of our churches.

As far as politically correct... isn't is the other way around? in the incredibly liberal California they just struck down a law enabling gay marriage. Isn't it popular opinion that gay people should not have equal rights? At least at this point is certainly is not mainstream.


rev
 Now I know he never mentioned lots of things, however, homosexuality was part of the culture, it is a bit weird that he would not have come across a gay man and it is also a bit weird that nothing would have been recorded about it, but we cannot base anything on what he did not say. "

I don't find it weird at all that Jesus did not specifically mention it himself. Just as he clearly didn't mention anything about pedophilla, pornography, torture, and a lot of others things. I already have a strong opinion based on scripture but am interested in your opinion. Is being Homosexual a sin based on your interpretation of scripture or not?  Based on your response, It appears that you either do not think it is a sin. or almost like you don't want it to be a sin? 

" So we build a doctrine that condemns an entire people group upon one scripture, which has an alternative interpretation that actually makes much more sense to me. Anyways, my point was not to justify homosexuality, but rather to show the hypocrisy of our churches. "

There is certainly a hypocrisy within most modern churches in the example you laid out,  but that doesn't mean all Christians going to that church agree with it. 












 
7/24/12 1:13 PM
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reverend john
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My daughter is marrying her female partner in September, so I have a very personal and close up view of this subject. In all honesty yes, I do want committed monogamous homosexual relationships to not be sin. I love my daughter, I love her no less because of this, and I cannot believe God does either. My daughter loves God, she reads, prays, follows the commands as she sees them. She is waiting to have sex until they are married. She gives to the poor, cares for children, and structures her life to reach out to others for the kingdom of God.

So my desire is that it is not sin. Does that mean they are not sin? Well in the research I have done, (countless hours), I have come to the opinion at this point (though I quite probably will change) is that though it may not be the best, it is not a sin.

This would take a lot of typing to explain, and I am not sure its worth it. In my experience most people have no interest in changing their minds about these things. No offense but it just seems a waste of time.

That said, I find that practically there is no difference. We are told to not try and fix others sin, unless we have fixed our own. Can anyone say they do not sin? No they cannot. We are also told that the man who kneels, does not lift his eyes to God, but beats his breast and cries out, "have mercy on me Lord, a sinner" is justified, but he who thanks God for his righteousness is not. Jesus says go and sin no more, but leaves that to the individual.

So if you believe homosexual marriage is a sin, or if you believe it is not, the call to love, and embrace them does not change.

rev
7/24/12 2:35 PM
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CJJScout
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reverend john - 

So if you believe homosexual marriage is a sin, or if you believe it is not, the call to love, and embrace them does not change.

rev

This is so true. I believe it is 100% sin and I have a Lordship view of salvation so I would questions their christian commitment and walk, but they would be welcome in my house and I could certainly call them friends.
7/24/12 2:40 PM
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CJJScout
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reverend john - 
Yet in the vast majority of our churches remarried couples are not only welcomed, but are allowed to take positions of leadership.

rev

Not in our church. Call us legalistic or dogmatic, but we have rules in place about this and a strong belief in church discipline and shepherding.

Got a buddy going through the process now.
7/24/12 2:42 PM
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colubrid1
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Edited: 07/24/12 3:03 PM
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Grak,
repentance from adultery requires her to try and reconcile the marriage otherwise it is not true repentance..

That is not me being skewed by personal circumstances. That is what the word says regarding marriage.

If i take her back even though she slept with another an. That is up to me. If i don't want to. I am free to remarry and she must stay single for the rest of her life because any other relationship would be adulterous for her and any man marying her would commit adultery.

again this is in realation to TWO christians getting married. Not unbeleivers like the woman at the well who got married and didn't even enter into gods covenant because they don't even beleive in God to begin with. How can they enter into Gods marriage covenant when they don't even beleive in God.

Do a word or topic search on all the scriptures on divorce and remarriage in the NT. What it says is quite clear.

John,
I know love your daughter. But could it be at all possible that it is your circumstances with your daughter which causes your views that may be skewed right now? Sometimes love requires a stern hand...

I rememeber talking with you about church discipline. Where one goes to the offending brother and if they don't listen, take witness and if they don't listen to them bring it to the church and if they don't listen to the church to treat them as a gentile...

..And you said.... well how did Jesus treat the gentiles?

It is hard to argue with you sometimes because you are smart. But I think you need to take a harder look at some of the things you are coming up with. I know you mean well. But the heart (not Gods word) is deceitful. A lot of unbeleivers mean well because they think their hearts are good. But it is the word we need to obey. Otherwise you unsurp the word of God
7/24/12 2:49 PM
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Caleb
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Rev, 
Well, that explains it. I can see why you would want it not to be a sin. I understand why you would not want to lay out your reasoning for why you think homosexuality is not a sin,  you are right, quite frankly I would disagree with you no matter what you said because it is very clear to me in scripture that it is 100% a sin and also homosexual marriage is living in constant sin. The same as 2 people living together who aren't married at all. I see it the exact same way. You say that your opinion will probably change, and I'm fairly certain you are right. 

I'm not professing I know more than you or anything like that. I think you are very knowledable, but often times I scratch my head from a belivers perspective with the some of the things you say. I can imagine you get into some interesting debates with some of your local brothers with this subject and others. 




7/24/12 3:30 PM
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reverend john
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I think you misunderstand me, or underestimate me, my dealings with my daughter have personalized things, they have made them more emotional, and I have been able to view things much closer and from the perspective of a father. But I had already adopted this point of view before her coming out.

As to what the scriptures clearly state... I don't think you have done much serious research if you say it is clear. I accept that you have a differing opinion, but I do not think it is clear at all. Like I said, the words used in three of the "homosexual" passages in the new testament were ambiguous. Paul actually made up words, and it is not quite known what he meant. There are many very serious scholars that believe he was speaking of pederasty, and temple prostitution.

What you have is the Romans passage, and if you read that passage carefully, it doesn't fit. It doesn't make sense in normal terms, and it doesn't fit the life of 95 percent of the gay people I have ever met.

The scriptures do however allow slavery, the subjection of women, and child murder.

So... we are face with interpretive work to do. The fact that Jesus constantly and with no regard for the religious leaders of his day embraced and accepted and in fact fought for the rights of those that were sinners, heretics, race traitors, women, unclean and all other outcasts, makes me believe that if I am going to err, I am going to err on the side of the outcast, the sinner, the marginalized and not on the side of the pharisee

rev
7/24/12 3:32 PM
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colubrid1
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reverend john - I think you misunderstand me, or underestimate me, my dealings with my daughter have personalized things, they have made them more emotional, and I have been able to view things much closer and from the perspective of a father. But I had already adopted this point of view before her coming out.

As to what the scriptures clearly state... I don't think you have done much serious research if you say it is clear. I accept that you have a differing opinion, but I do not think it is clear at all. Like I said, the words used in three of the "homosexual" passages in the new testament were ambiguous. Paul actually made up words, and it is not quite known what he meant. There are many very serious scholars that believe he was speaking of pederasty, and temple prostitution.

What you have is the Romans passage, and if you read that passage carefully, it doesn't fit. It doesn't make sense in normal terms, and it doesn't fit the life of 95 percent of the gay people I have ever met.

The scriptures do however allow slavery, the subjection of women, and child murder.

So... we are face with interpretive work to do. The fact that Jesus constantly and with no regard for the religious leaders of his day embraced and accepted and in fact fought for the rights of those that were sinners, heretics, race traitors, women, unclean and all other outcasts, makes me believe that if I am going to err, I am going to err on the side of the outcast, the sinner, the marginalized and not on the side of the pharisee

rev



WOW! Just WOW!
7/24/12 3:34 PM
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Lahi
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CJJScout - I believe it is 100% sin and I have a Lordship view of salvation so I would questions their christian commitment and walk, but they would be welcome in my house and I could certainly call them friends.


So what do we do with sincere believers who come down on opposite sides of important issues, and who are both very convicted, and Spirit-filled people?

This has bothered me for a long time, in fact was thinking about it today before reading this thread. It seems like one of the paradoxes of following Jesus is that He will change our lives, forgive us and heal us, convict us of truth...and sometimes we will still get things wrong, even very wrong, and be fully convicted we are right.

Maybe at a certain point it really does go beyond rules to where our hearts are at, and to Grace.
7/24/12 3:35 PM
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reverend john
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colubrid1 - Grak,
repentance from adultery requires her to try and reconcile the marriage otherwise it is not true repentance..

That is not me being skewed by personal circumstances. That is what the word says regarding marriage.

If i take her back even though she slept with another an. That is up to me. If i don't want to. I am free to remarry and she must stay single for the rest of her life because any other relationship would be adulterous for her and any man marying her would commit adultery.

again this is in realation to TWO christians getting married. Not unbeleivers like the woman at the well who got married and didn't even enter into gods covenant because they don't even beleive in God to begin with. How can they enter into Gods marriage covenant when they don't even beleive in God.

Do a word or topic search on all the scriptures on divorce and remarriage in the NT. What it says is quite clear.

John,
I know love your daughter. But could it be at all possible that it is your circumstances with your daughter which causes your views that may be skewed right now? Sometimes love requires a stern hand...

I rememeber talking with you about church discipline. Where one goes to the offending brother and if they don't listen, take witness and if they don't listen to them bring it to the church and if they don't listen to the church to treat them as a gentile...

..And you said.... well how did Jesus treat the gentiles?

It is hard to argue with you sometimes because you are smart. But I think you need to take a harder look at some of the things you are coming up with. I know you mean well. But the heart (not Gods word) is deceitful. A lot of unbeleivers mean well because they think their hearts are good. But it is the word we need to obey. Otherwise you unsurp the word of God


Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, I follow Him, and the word is to be interpreted in light of Jesus, not religious tradition.

Which means quite simply when Jesus says treat them as a gentile or sinner, we do just that, which means we eat with them we love them and we embrace them, which is exactly what Jesus did. The only reason you remove someone from the literal presence of God on earth (the body of Christ) is if they are actually destroying the community (which is why I struggle much more with promiscuity, and divorce and gossip than homosexuality or other issues).

But once again you did not answer me, please answer me

rev
7/24/12 3:40 PM
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reverend john
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colubrid1 - 
reverend john - I think you misunderstand me, or underestimate me, my dealings with my daughter have personalized things, they have made them more emotional, and I have been able to view things much closer and from the perspective of a father. But I had already adopted this point of view before her coming out.

As to what the scriptures clearly state... I don't think you have done much serious research if you say it is clear. I accept that you have a differing opinion, but I do not think it is clear at all. Like I said, the words used in three of the "homosexual" passages in the new testament were ambiguous. Paul actually made up words, and it is not quite known what he meant. There are many very serious scholars that believe he was speaking of pederasty, and temple prostitution.

What you have is the Romans passage, and if you read that passage carefully, it doesn't fit. It doesn't make sense in normal terms, and it doesn't fit the life of 95 percent of the gay people I have ever met.

The scriptures do however allow slavery, the subjection of women, and child murder.

So... we are face with interpretive work to do. The fact that Jesus constantly and with no regard for the religious leaders of his day embraced and accepted and in fact fought for the rights of those that were sinners, heretics, race traitors, women, unclean and all other outcasts, makes me believe that if I am going to err, I am going to err on the side of the outcast, the sinner, the marginalized and not on the side of the pharisee

rev



WOW! Just WOW!


Wow what? I have always said exactly this, I may be wrong, but if I make a mistake it is going to be in the direction of the people Jesus loved, hung out with and spent most of his time with, not the religiously righteous. How is that at all surprising?

rev
7/24/12 3:51 PM
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colubrid1
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reverend john - 
colubrid1 - 
But you did not answer my question, who did Jesus say were going to hell?

rev


mathew 25:31-46
31 “But when (A)the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then (B)He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be (C)gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, (D)as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep (E)on His right, and the goats (F)on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, (G)inherit the kingdom prepared for you (H)from the foundation of the world. 35 For (I)I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; (J)I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 (K)naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you (L)visited Me; (M)I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 (N)The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, (O)to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘(P)Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the (Q)eternal fire which has been prepared for (R)the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [a]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into (S)eternal punishment, but the righteous into (T)eternal life



All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.


2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (NASB)
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power



But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
7/24/12 4:00 PM
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reverend john
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Ok, so I specifically said Jesus, you found one passage that says nothing about "sin" but about how you treat the poor and marginalized.

As for the gospel, that is another long subject. Jesus says the gospel is the kingdom of God is come, and it is about Lordship.

But lets put up some scriptures about who Jesus, here, on earth, in the flesh told were going to hell

you know the truth which is why you tried so hard to get around it

rev
7/24/12 4:04 PM
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colubrid1
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The issue is your heart, I have not heard much love in your heart, just a lot of judgment


I do love people. I just don't beleive in loving them so much you love them into sin.
7/24/12 4:07 PM
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colubrid1
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reverend john - Ok, so I specifically said Jesus, you found one passage that says nothing about "sin" but about how you treat the poor and marginalized.

As for the gospel, that is another long subject. Jesus says the gospel is the kingdom of God is come, and it is about Lordship.

But lets put up some scriptures about who Jesus, here, on earth, in the flesh told were going to hell

you know the truth which is why you tried so hard to get around it

rev



That is why i quoted mathew 25:31-46. I also beleive all scripture is breathed out by God.
7/24/12 4:48 PM
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zealot66
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 I just cannot wrap my mind around homosexuality being any more of a choice than me being attracted to women? No matter what you did to me, I would not be aroused by male on male sex. That's my issue. If it isn't a choice then what do we do with people ? What do you tell a man born with female chromosones and a penis about his orientation or vice versa or literally what do you tell a hermaphodite ? These are real issues!
7/24/12 5:55 PM
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reverend john
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colubrid1 - 
The issue is your heart, I have not heard much love in your heart, just a lot of judgment


I do love people. I just don't beleive in loving them so much you love them into sin.


and how did my love cause anyone to sin? Does God's love make me sin? no it makes me not want to sin.


rev
7/24/12 5:56 PM
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reverend john
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you tell them the loving thing zealot... God loves you so much you cannot have a lasting loving relationship where you share everything with another person forever.

rev
7/24/12 6:05 PM
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Grakman
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Not to derail this topic (not that it will anyway lol) but anyone really interested in the topic of divorce and remarriage in the Bible should read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Divorce-Remarriage-Bible-Literary-Context/dp/0802849431

It explains passages in the Bible in context of those who would have heard them at the time, instead of the context of those who hear them with their modern ears and frame of reference. It's a great book and may give many people peace, e.g releasing people from physically abusive marriages.

7/24/12 6:11 PM
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reverend john
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no dude, Jesus said only adultery

rev
7/24/12 6:32 PM
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Caleb
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zealot66 -  I just cannot wrap my mind around homosexuality being any more of a choice than me being attracted to women? No matter what you did to me, I would not be aroused by male on male sex. That's my issue. If it isn't a choice then what do we do with people ? What do you tell a man born with female chromosones and a penis about his orientation or vice versa or literally what do you tell a hermaphodite ? These are real issues!

 I don't know, what do you tell a pedophile or a murderer? You tell them they were either born or devloped an obvious imbalance and they need to pray to God to help them with it. What you don't do is encourage their sinful behavior and tell them nothing is wrong because they were born that way. 


7/24/12 6:55 PM
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reverend john
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Some one who victimizes a child someone who takes a life or someone who loves some one else in adult consensual. Way

Yeah that's the same

What do you do with a greedy bastard stockpiling money and cars and houses while 2/3 of the world starves? Enjoy Gods blessing

Rev Phone Post
7/24/12 7:36 PM
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Grakman
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One of the issues I have with compiling a list of 'thou shalt nots' and using this list as a litmus test to determine who is a 'Christian' is that it ignores the heart. A man could be married to one woman his whole life, never commit adultery, and donate to charity but still have a heart full of hatred towards other people. A man could be quiet, never speak a dishonest word, and appear to be humble but inside he could be full of seething rage and jealousy. He would be as Jesus said a white washed sepulcher full of dead men's bones, clean on the outside and vile on the inside, the only difference is that now we're talking about moral actions instead of ritual actions.

Christianity, in my opinion, is a religion of the heart, best expressed in Jesus's words, "Love God with all your heart and mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself." If you look at the list of sins that Paul categorizes throughout his epistles, you will see that these acts are acts of selfishness, or non-loving acts, committed towards others or even oneself. When we truly begin to love others as Christ loved us, we don't lie, we don't steal, we don't use other people's bodies for own gratification regardless of the consequences, because we LOVE those people as we love ourselves.

We are linking a number of 'sins' together in this thread, like divorce, remarriage, fornication, and homosexuality. The problem is that when we deal in hypothetical examples and what we think the 'Word' says, we forget that there are real people with real problems involved in these situations. Yes, it is an unloving act, a 'sin', for a heterosexual man to misuse women for his own sexual gratification. And it is likewise a sin for a homosexual man to use other men for his own sexual gratification. In my view it isn't the act itself but the intent and the purpose of the act. It's what's in the person's heart that counts. So in my view, showing a homosexual person a better way, to show commitment, to show love and consideration to their partner rather than using their partner and anyone else who comes along as a tool for sexual release is a good thing.

When Jesus tells the woman caught in adultery, 'Go, and sin no more,' is he telling her 'Or else next time these men will stone you,' or 'Or else you will go to hell,' or is he telling her that adultery is a destructive act that will only hurt her and everyone else involved?

What should come first, transformation of the heart or attempting to obey a list of thou shalt nots? Once the heart is transformed, the sinning eventually stops and we become more loving and Christ-like, which I believe is the point of the entire thing.

7/24/12 8:07 PM
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colubrid1
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That first paragraph was actually a pretty god peice grakman. but the sex outside marrige and homosexuality parts are misleading.

What i am seeing here are truths mixed with misrepresentations. Which makes it easy to be swayed away from gods whole word.

if two heterosexuals are having sex and they have not comitted to God, they are in sin.Period. Doesn't matter how much they "love" each other or show love and consideration to their partner. If they are christian yet they ignore the marriage covenant and are having sex they are in sin. Without being married and made that commitment to God to stay together when they don't "feel' that love and therefore show like they might have in th beginning when they don't "feel" considerate.

God warns us about troubles in marriage. We will be blessed to stay in them. Does not say you will be happy. Why do you think God said not to divorce? It is because we WANT divorce. That is why he wrote it down. Adultery is being married to someone and wanting out of that marrige and then either having sex before or after the second illegitamte marriage.

But i agree with the heart being transformed. But it comes through the word of God. It is the law that drives us to repentance and forgiveness. Otherwise our hearts are deceiftul beyond measure. Our hearts can go in a wrong direction. There are people with good hearts and they think they don't need Jesus because they see they are good enough compared to other men. But the fact they reject Jesus is where they then stumble. Tell them that and they get angry and say they don't want nothing to do with a God like that.
7/24/12 8:23 PM
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colubrid1
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reverend john - no dude, Jesus said only adultery

rev



That is right. It also says if a woman does leave (I think maybe beause of giving the option in a case of physical abuse) she must remain unmarried or reconcile with her husband. This will allow the husband to repent or commit adultery with another woman. If he chooses adultery then she is free to remarry. If he turns to God and repents then she can return. But she cannot divorce her husband. At least in Gods eyes. Nowadays the courts will grant a legal divorce for a list of reasons including irreconciable differences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI50W_RnqGo&feature=related


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