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7/24/12 11:26 PM
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reverend john
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Great post Grakman, really good. Its amazing that when I talk about caring for the poor and marginalized I am "salvation by works" but when they talk about homosexuality, adultery and divorce then it is just what the bible says. Bullshit is bullshit

rev
7/25/12 1:00 AM
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Lahi
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reverend john - Great post Grakman, really good. Its amazing that when I talk about caring for the poor and marginalized I am "salvation by works" but when they talk about homosexuality, adultery and divorce then it is just what the bible says. Bullshit is bullshit

rev


I know I'm a broken record on here, but I just don't get the double standard when it comes to our gay bothers and sisters. Why does believing that they are missing the mark of God's ideal in this area of their lives become a deal breaker, to the point that a person's sincerity and walk with God are questioned? We give people plenty of room to let God work in their lives, in His way and time, on a host of other issues. And I'm sure most of us need the same, and have places where others think we sincerely fall short.
7/25/12 1:03 AM
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Lahi
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And how many Christians, gay or straight, can really say we are living up to Jesus calling when it comes to our sex lives? How many are committed to really even trying?
7/25/12 8:27 AM
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AVClub
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Having been divorced now for 4 years, I've thought a lot about Jesus' teaching on divorce, failt, forgiveness, and re-marriage.

I don't want to sound like it doesn't matter because we can be forgiven. I think it's important that we consider the consequences of Jesus' words very seriously. However, I believe that Jesus was addressing a cultural condition where men were simply stopped caring about their wives and were divorcing them for invalid reasons. Perhaps it was a newer, younger model, or perhaps it was any number of irrational reasons. But men were divorcing their wives and leaving them to fend for themselves and their children, which in the culture of the day was incredibly difficult and marginalizing. I think Jesus was trying to stress the importance of a committed, life long marriage, staying true to your commitments, and the value of wives. I find it hard to believe that Jesus would consider a person who is divorced guilty when they had nothing to do with it. Like me. I was getting a divorce whether I wanted it or not. My wife straight up left for no legitimate reason.
Help me reconcile my opinion on this matter. Phone Post
7/25/12 9:32 AM
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Caleb
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Edited: 07/25/12 11:42 AM
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reverend john -  Some one who victimizes a child someone who takes a life or someone who loves some one else in adult sinful consensual way. 

Yeah that's the same

What do you do with a greedy bastard stockpiling money and cars and houses while 2/3 of the world starves? Enjoy Gods blessing

Rev Phone Post

They are all sins in Gods eyes Rev.. so I'm not sure what your point is exactly.  It's like you are comparing them with the ways of our world in the eyes of the old dead rev that doesn't exist anymore. Were you born again? What does the spiritual rev think? 



 
7/25/12 9:40 AM
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colubrid1
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AVClub - Having been divorced now for 4 years, I've thought a lot about Jesus' teaching on divorce, failt, forgiveness, and re-marriage. <br><br>I don't want to sound like it doesn't matter because we can be forgiven. I think it's important that we consider the consequences of Jesus' words very seriously. However, I believe that Jesus was addressing a cultural condition where men were simply stopped caring about their wives and were divorcing them for invalid reasons. Perhaps it was a newer, younger model, or perhaps it was any number of irrational reasons. But men were divorcing their wives and leaving them to fend for themselves and their children, which in the culture of the day was incredibly difficult and marginalizing. I think Jesus was trying to stress the importance of a committed, life long marriage, staying true to your commitments, and the value of wives. I find it hard to believe that Jesus would consider a person who is divorced guilty when they had nothing to do with it. Like me. I was getting a divorce whether I wanted it or not. My wife straight up left for no legitimate reason. <br>Help me reconcile my opinion on this matter. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>



If you both were christians and you wife left just because she was annoyed with you and never returned i doubt she was a christian to begin with.

But if she did and you found out she is with another. Then you are free. But if she is truly a christian and realizes what she did she would come back to you and ask for forgiveness.

I would reccomend watching this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI50W_RnqGo&feature=related

7/25/12 9:52 AM
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Caleb
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AVClub -  

"But men were divorcing their wives and leaving them to fend for themselves and their children, which in the culture of the day was incredibly difficult and marginalizing. I think Jesus was trying to stress the importance of a committed, life long marriage, staying true to your commitments, and the value of wives."

Hey, that sounds remarkably similar to how marriage is today! 

I wish I could help you reconcile your opinion of scripture on this but I have not studied it enough myself to give a solid response. All I can say is really do you due dilligence and study the word over and over with regards to divorce, pray a lot about it,  and also ask advice from elders from whom you respect their biblical knowledge and then come to your conclustion. At the end of the day, our life is short here on earth, the last thing you want to do is re-marry and find out you were living in constant sin against God. 

Although I have never been divorced, I do understand your struggle and can only imagine how tough it would be not to re-marry, but If I felt it was scripturally wrong, I would fight it with every ounce of my soul. 




  
7/25/12 2:42 PM
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CJJScout
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Lahi, great book called "Washed and Waiting" on this issue. I think you can get it from Amazon.

I think the issue becomes living in continual, unrepentant sin. It is certainly okay to struggle with something, but never is it okay to just give in and accept sin. To struggle with homosexuality or same sex attraction is okay, but to say, "Hey, that's just the way I am" is not okay.
7/25/12 2:52 PM
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Lahi
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So for the people on the other side of this, (I'm maybe 51%, just barely), how do you answer the Rev's points about the ambiguity of scripture? And that we are denying a loving, committed, emotionally healthy relationship to people?

I can see adultery, and sleeping around before marriage being harmful to people. But one place i am hung up on this issue is that there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason not to be in a committed same-sex relationship. How is it spiritually or emotionally harmful?
7/25/12 3:00 PM
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Lahi
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CJJScout - Lahi, great book called "Washed and Waiting" on this issue. I think you can get it from Amazon.

I think the issue becomes living in continual, unrepentant sin. It is certainly okay to struggle with something, but never is it okay to just give in and accept sin. To struggle with homosexuality or same sex attraction is okay, but to say, "Hey, that's just the way I am" is not okay.


but we are patient with men who lust, and masturbate, and aren't always committed to overcoming it. We let God work with them (us) in His time. No one is sugessting they be kicked out of the church. Same goes for gossipers, gluttons, and people who dont help the poor like God calls them too (again, probably most of us). we are even willing to disagree on these issues.

Why is homosexuality a special issue where we feel we have to treat people differently?
7/25/12 3:21 PM
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Lahi
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For those convicted that same-sex relationships miss the mark, I think Greg Bloyd makes a lot of sense here. Second speaker if you dont know him.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=PkWk1ATYHno
7/25/12 5:06 PM
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zealot66
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 I think that we as a society are hard and seperate homosexuality for specific reasons. The 'contrary to nature' is pretty much the sum of WHY? few and far between are the gays that you cannot tell immediately. I know there are some that act like normal people, the sex that they are but the reality is most gays act very differently from the way they talk, to the way they dress, to the way they walk. You see a man but you are hearing and interacting with something akin to a woman and usually a very flamboyant and bizarre woman. You talk to a lesbian, you get all kinds. I have a friend of 4 years that is a bona fide lesbian and I didn't know for months till she came and told me because she was afraid I would find out and disown her.

I didn't I gave her a hug and said, I don't care, we are friends regardless and then had honest discussions. She was not for gay marraige. She recognized that her lifestyle was different and that she was fine with having a civil ceremony but not wrecking the institution of marraige on a federal level. 

Homosexuals are pointed out because their behaviour is so often over the top. Thats why I say that I can't wrap my brain around it because as a heterosexual, I cannot ever see myself acting in the manner that alot of them do. And quite frankly, there are damn few homosexuals that are monogamous and go on for years in a marraige. I know hetero's are not monogamous anymore or ever but it is almost always behaviour outside the norm. And it is a life altering state of being.

Just random thoughts. I don't have time or care to be involved in peoples sex life. I'm only interested in mine. 
7/25/12 5:16 PM
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Caleb
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Lahi - For those convicted that same-sex relationships miss the mark, I think Greg Bloyd makes a lot of sense here. Second speaker if you dont know him.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=PkWk1ATYHno

 I enjoyed that video. Thx for posting! After I watched it, I saw this one below. His story is so freaking awesome to me. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_333247&feature=iv&src_vid=wD5mFQkenqI&v=7sTNVcRpixI 
7/25/12 6:54 PM
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Lahi
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Caleb, thanks for sharing. I want to first say good for that guy and his testimony. It sounds like God has delivered him from a lot, and done some great things in his life. So my next comments aren't meant to be critical of him, but of a certain mindset prevalent in much of American Christianity.

Fist, I think some might watch that and draw a connection between things like substance abuse, devil worship, and the 'gay community'. these kinds of things can be found in all kinds of groups. As a kid I found them in the evangelical church, and can relate to a lot of his story.

On the other hand, I can't think of a gay friend or acquaintence who is into either of those things. I do know many who seek God daily, and work to care for the less fortunate and hurting.

I have no doubt at all that God still works miracles, and still heals people today. I've seen this in my own life too. But I think we have to realize that this is usually the exception, not the rule - those seeking deliverence from same-sex attractions included.

I think the research shows most 'Ex-gay ministries' just dont work. And in my experience, people who cry out to God day and night usually aren't healed. I say this with a sister who to God in terror to change her, convinced she was going t Hell, and who really did go through hell after not being healed. My best friend prayed for years that God would change him. When he finally realized this was never going to happen, he eventually found the courage to come out. After the terrible rejection he got from his church, friends, and family, he tried to kill himself, and almost did.

So if we are convicted gay sexual behavior falls short of God's ideal, I believe we must have churches that are places of unconditional welcome and acceptance. Many churches I've been a part of do a great job with straight men who lust. We speak in love, dont make timelines or ultimatums, and let God convict and work in His time.

Just some thoughts.
7/26/12 3:58 AM
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DyingBreed
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He said except for marital unfaithfulness. This includes, but is not limited to cheating. For example, I don't think God wants a woman to endure a man beating the crap out of her everyday...pretty unfaithful if you ask me. Phone Post
7/26/12 9:19 AM
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Grakman
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DyingBreed said: "He said except for marital unfaithfulness. This includes, but is not limited to cheating. For example, I don't think God wants a woman to endure a man beating the crap out of her everyday...pretty unfaithful if you ask me."

I agree. Beating, mentally or physically abusing your spouse, abandoning them, are all acts 'unfaithful' to their vows.
7/26/12 11:39 AM
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gord96
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Grakman - I agree. Beating, mentally or physically abusing your spouse, abandoning them, are all acts 'unfaithful' to their vows.


Agreed. Any type of abuse in a marriage, emotional or physical, pretty much destroys the marriage already in a spiritual sense.
7/26/12 3:21 PM
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CJJScout
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Lahi - 
CJJScout - Lahi, great book called "Washed and Waiting" on this issue. I think you can get it from Amazon.

I think the issue becomes living in continual, unrepentant sin. It is certainly okay to struggle with something, but never is it okay to just give in and accept sin. To struggle with homosexuality or same sex attraction is okay, but to say, "Hey, that's just the way I am" is not okay.


but we are patient with men who lust, and masturbate, and aren't always committed to overcoming it. We let God work with them (us) in His time. No one is sugessting they be kicked out of the church. Same goes for gossipers, gluttons, and people who dont help the poor like God calls them too (again, probably most of us). we are even willing to disagree on these issues.

Why is homosexuality a special issue where we feel we have to treat people differently?

I'm not saying kick those men who lust, etc. out of the church. Nor am I saying kick homosexuals out of the church.

I think the folks that need to get kicked out of the church (or at least face discipline) are the folks that deny their sin contrary to the overwhelming weight of scripture.

Lust is wrong, if you struggle with it you are okay in the church as long as you recognize that it is a sin that you need to be redeemed from and try to abstain from the practices involved. Same as homosexuality. It is wrong and if you realize you need to be redeemed from it and its practice then you are welcome.

Who does not belong is someone that says they lust and it is okay to act on it via sex outside of marriage to either opposite sex or same sex partners. Same as someone that says I'm gay and it is okay.

Even if they say they are gay and it is okay, I want them to come to church and hear the message, but I would withhold membership.

One of my good friends is gay and when my last child is baptized he promised me he would come to my church. Not only do I want him there to hear the message, but he is a good friend and I want him to share in the joy that comes to my family from the baptism ceremony and him being there. Not to be too big of a sissy, but thinking about all that nearly brings tears of joy to my eyes.
7/26/12 5:13 PM
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zealot66
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 This guy is rather remarkable so far

7/26/12 5:14 PM
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zealot66
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7/27/12 2:58 AM
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Ali
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WTF.
7/27/12 5:11 PM
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CJJScout
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Good find, zealot
7/27/12 5:33 PM
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Caleb
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CJJScout - Good find, zealot

 Well, technically I found it and he posted the video. :) but it is a cool story and there are a lot more on there. These people can change with God's help, they just have to understand what they are doing is wrong in the first place even though it might feel right to them. Society is starting to tell them that everything is fine as long as they were born that way, so that just throws fuel on the fire. 




7/27/12 5:35 PM
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Caleb
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 You want to see a good one.. check this one out. 


7/27/12 6:29 PM
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gord96
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It seems though that the guys in the videos are at the far end of the spectrum. The homosexual people I know are in long term, monogamous relationships and don't use drugs and never were prostitutes and didn't get into the occult, etc. Showing them these videos they would probably agree that these guys were messed up and needed to get out of their destructive lifestyles.

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