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7/27/12 6:56 PM
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Caleb
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Yeah, these are just a few videos on youtube. You think the only gays that turned their lives completely around were the ones who were living crazy and getting high on drugs all the time? I seriously doubt that. I also find it interesting that these 2 guys no longer have any attraction to the same sex at all. In fact, they now have attraction to the opposite sex. Amazing how that happens. 









7/28/12 12:22 AM
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colubrid1
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Edited: 07/28/12 12:23 AM
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Wow! those men in the videos are pretty inspirational.


God is so good to us.
7/28/12 9:52 AM
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Caleb
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colubrid1 - Wow! those men in the videos are pretty inspirational.


God is so good to us.
Amen! Made me tear up listening to them. Reminded me of when God revealed himself to me and I became born again. His Grace is something I can't even come close to understanding. Phone Post
7/28/12 3:20 PM
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Ridgeback
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gord96 - It seems though that the guys in the videos are at the far end of the spectrum. The homosexual people I know are in long term, monogamous relationships and don't use drugs and never were prostitutes and didn't get into the occult, etc. Showing them these videos they would probably agree that these guys were messed up and needed to get out of their destructive lifestyles.

 Okay, but people with same sex attraction do have higher rates of drug use, suicide, promiscuity (especially gay men), domestic abuse, and unstable relationships (strangely even lesbians suffer from a higher rate of short term relationships) than their "straight" counterparts.  You could argue that when a person is treated like an outcast and an abomination then he is more apt to go off the deep end, but I think an argument could be made that something is inherently disordered in same sex attraction.

I am not sure how you could know if gay people are "monogamous."  George Michael has been with the same man for years, but he pointed out that being "monogamous" as in sexually exclusive is unheard of with gay men.  Many gay men who live together as a couple nevertheless have multiple, anonymous sexual encounters apart from their main partner.  
7/28/12 3:27 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Having same sex unions in a church is a way of saying that most Christians in most times and places had no idea what they were doing in regards to how same sex acts are to be treated within Christianity.  Setting aside the biblical arguments for a moment (and the Bible is pretty clear on the issue) the idea of gay marriage is non-existent in Christian history. You can argue that Jesus never mentions abortion in the gospels so it should be okay, but it is mentioned in the Didache and many other early Christian writings and historically the two oldest traditions of Christianity (Catholicisim and Orthodoxy) have been unanimously against abortion.  It was one of the appeals to women who joined the early church that their children would not be aborted or killed shortly after birth by the patriarch of their family.

The view of homosexuality across the span of 2000 years of Christian history has been very clear.  If you decide that gay unions are acceptable then you do stand at odds with all those Christians who lived and died for the faith.  But I find that most living Christians don't care about those people and have a very myopic view of the faith anyway.  In fact, a great deal of time is spent on reinventing Christianity to suit modern tastes rather than living out the faith once delivered.  
7/29/12 12:03 PM
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zealot66
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 The founders of Exodus International went back to their gay lifestyle. In fact they were always gay, they just took a break. I think that perhaps a person can change temporarily but the hard wiring is there. Most converted Gay men fall back into the lifestyle. 
7/29/12 10:27 PM
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Ali
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Old prejudices are the best prejudices. The genetic fallacy is preferable to merely fashionable notions of "equality" or "rights".
7/29/12 11:48 PM
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Ridgeback
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Ali - Old prejudices are the best prejudices. The genetic fallacy is preferable to merely fashionable notions of "equality" or "rights".

 One of the strongest "prejudices" is the modern belief that what is new is better and clearly we are superior to all of the people who went before us.  CS Lewis termed this habit of thought "chronological snobbery" and it seems to stem from the observation that since technology appears to improve as it gets newer, then everything else must as well.  

Meanwhile, is there more potential to be arrogant when you stand apart from a wide variety of people living in a wide variety of cultures in a wide variety of times, or when you carefully consider that the sum of their experience may trump our own myopic view of reality?

The vast majority of human cultures never categorized people by their sexual proclivities or attractions.  Making this a primary element of a person's identity is inherently dehumanizing.  
7/30/12 12:24 AM
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Ali
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Appeals to authority are a good option when the genetic fallacy starts to get repetitive, too.
7/30/12 12:57 AM
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Ridgeback
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Ali - Appeals to authority are a good option when the genetic fallacy starts to get repetitive, too.

Disregard my earlier post.  If you reject Christianity you probably shouldn't have a say in how to live as a struggling member of a Christian community.
7/30/12 1:25 AM
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Ali
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Edited: 07/30/12 1:26 AM
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Arrogating authority to oneself is another option when the appeals to authority sound hollow.
7/30/12 2:23 AM
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Ridgeback
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Ali - Arrogating authority to oneself is another option when the appeals to authority sound hollow.

Yawn.  Once I was rolling with a cadet at the Air Force academy and we were training hard at grappling.  Some guy came along and sat on a bench watching us.  He took it upon himself to tell us what we were doing wrong and I asked him if he trained.  He said "no, but I watch the UFC."  I didn't take anything else he said seriously after that.  




7/30/12 3:20 AM
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Ali
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I once spoke to a guy who gave me all sorts of reading advice. Only he didn't read English. There were no demands on either of our parts to take the other seriously, at least. So we had that going for us.

Old prejudices are the best prejudices. The genetic fallacy is preferable to merely fashionable notions of "equality" or "rights".
7/30/12 7:46 AM
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Caleb
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zealot66 -  The founders of Exodus International went back to their gay lifestyle. In fact they were always gay, they just took a break. I think that perhaps a person can change temporarily but the hard wiring is there. Most converted Gay men fall back into the lifestyle. 
I don't think it is anything to do with their hard wiring, it is more to do with them giving into their sinful desires. Phone Post
7/30/12 9:21 AM
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CJJScout
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Caleb - 
zealot66 -  The founders of Exodus International went back to their gay lifestyle. In fact they were always gay, they just took a break. I think that perhaps a person can change temporarily but the hard wiring is there. Most converted Gay men fall back into the lifestyle. 
I don't think it is anything to do with their hard wiring, it is more to do with them giving into their sinful desires. Phone Post

And I think only one of them went back to their former lifestyle.

Good find, Caleb!
7/30/12 2:21 PM
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Grakman
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Relying on tradition can be helpful, but then again...

Isn't tradition to blame for blood libel against Jews?
Genital mutilation of women is also a tradition handed down for hundreds of generations.

And aren't we all hoping that there will be a global movement to modernize Islam? All those traditional beheadings and what not, you know?

I'd be hesitant to reach back to tradition to deny people what are basically equal rights in a modern society. What is the purpose of the government in regulating marriage anyway?
7/30/12 3:44 PM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman - Relying on tradition can be helpful, but then again...

Isn't tradition to blame for blood libel against Jews?
Genital mutilation of women is also a tradition handed down for hundreds of generations.

And aren't we all hoping that there will be a global movement to modernize Islam? All those traditional beheadings and what not, you know?

I'd be hesitant to reach back to tradition to deny people what are basically equal rights in a modern society. What is the purpose of the government in regulating marriage anyway?

 First of all, if your post is directed at me Grakman, I didn't simply make an argument to rely on tradition.  The Vincentian canon goes beyond that and and your example about the Jews fails to meet it.  Genital mutilation is irrelevant to Christian behavior in the Church.

As far as Islam goes, if it went back to the days of the Ottoman empire that would be an improvement in many parts of the world.  Two of the greatest works of Judaism and Christianity were written under the protection of Muslims.  Furthermore, a lot of modern Islam is the rejection of traditions like the promise of Mohammed to protect Christians.

I made no argument about what the US government does.  My post was clearly pointed at gay marriage inside the Church.  As I have noted many times, I don't care about gay marriage as a government matter.  I don't think government should be in the marriage business, but if it is going to be then probably there should be civil unions for any two or more adults who choose to enter into them.  Maybe your post wasn't directed at me though.  
7/30/12 3:49 PM
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Ridgeback
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Ali - I once spoke to a guy who gave me all sorts of reading advice. Only he didn't read English. There were no demands on either of our parts to take the other seriously, at least. So we had that going for us.

Old prejudices are the best prejudices. The genetic fallacy is preferable to merely fashionable notions of "equality" or "rights".

 The fact that you think the Vincentian canon rises to the level of an "appeal to authority" fallacy demonstrates that you will never avail yourself of a real education no matter what advice you get.  But the real issue is you bring nothing to the table in these conversations.  What could be more lame than a person who rejects Christianity giving advice about how best to live the Christian life?  Share your own theory of reality that you are willing to suffer for (and willing to have your children suffer for) and then we can talk.  As it stands, you are a tourist on a religious forum.  You are certainly welcome, but I won't be responding to your posts anymore.  Actually, it was just a lapse of memory that led to me responding in the first place.  
7/30/12 3:57 PM
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RoidsGracie
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Ali - I once spoke to a guy who gave me all sorts of reading advice. Only he didn't read English. There were no demands on either of our parts to take the other seriously, at least. So we had that going for us.

Old prejudices are the best prejudices. The genetic fallacy is preferable to merely fashionable notions of "equality" or "rights".


Sounds like the best option here is to do the same thing if you came upon someone that doesn't speak the same language as you out on the street - just ignore each other's glances and be on your way.
7/30/12 6:57 PM
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zealot66
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 This seems like a transformation. Adam Hood may be having sex with women and I wish him the best but he still acts as GAY as it gets. This whole subject confuses the hell out of me. I think each individual has their own set of WHY's they are gay. I would bet that the ones who can actually overcome it were those who were abused sexually. It seems like a key factor. 

Someone also mentioned to me that they see more success in women than men. Alot of studies show data that women are more ambiguous about their sexuality. I think to be honest that is one reason that there are alot more lesbian porn and such out there. All I know is that I am NOT GAY and I proved it recently. Well about 24 hours ago. I hope it lasts.......:)
7/30/12 6:58 PM
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zealot66
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  http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/08/exodus-unable-to-give-a-numerical-success-rate/
7/30/12 7:11 PM
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zealot66
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 BTW, I think the point of this thread is really that Christians are selective in their interpretation of scripture. Perhaps John is being selective and the others selective. No anal sex-Literal      Give all you have to the poor and follow jesus- Not literal.

Quite frankly, taking the bible literally set me on my course of deconversion from fundamental Evangelical Christianity. Jesus said that you needed to sell what you have and follow him and many other things I am not willing to do at this point in my life. So I no longer live in a fairy tale world of 'rightly dividing the word of truth' or playing church or playing Christian. Once I decided to take the bible literally, I realized that I cant do it. I have a family to take care of, I do not fit in with the church and I gave up the idea of 'selling out for Christ and becoming a missionary'. I tired of the things I found on this thread, figuring out Gayness or what is sin or not. I'm tired. I'm also free to not be a hypocrite anymore. 

hear that again, I am free. I am no longer deciding which passages to take literally based on my personal preferences. The burden is no longer on me to Believe the right thing or risk eternal damnation. Good luck to the rest of you figuring it all out. I had a professor that told me something- quit trying to figure out what is Right and Wrong and you will learn so much more. Hear what the text says, not what you want it to say.
7/30/12 10:05 PM
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Grakman
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Ridge, my post wasn't directed at you per se, although you are more apt to lean on tradition than most of us here. Nothing wrong with that, I just think we have to be careful choosing what traditions to rely on, and I'm not trying to say that about Orthodoxy, just in general. In hindsight I realized later that I was making comments about the government and homosexual unions rather than sticking to the thread topic, which is homosexual Christians. I agree with your statements about government regulation of marriage. I'm against forcing churches to ordain or marry gays as well, I see that as an abridgment of religious freedom. There are plenty of other churches and places for gay people to worship as Christians without forcing churches that disagree with the lifestyle to accept them.

Not to derail the thread, but has anyone ever heard of a movement to recognize gay Muslims? Or is a Christian phenomenon?
7/30/12 10:10 PM
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Grakman
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zealot66 -  BTW, I think the point of this thread is really that Christians are selective in their interpretation of scripture. Perhaps John is being selective and the others selective. No anal sex-Literal      Give all you have to the poor and follow jesus- Not literal.

Quite frankly, taking the bible literally set me on my course of deconversion from fundamental Evangelical Christianity. Jesus said that you needed to sell what you have and follow him and many other things I am not willing to do at this point in my life. So I no longer live in a fairy tale world of 'rightly dividing the word of truth' or playing church or playing Christian. Once I decided to take the bible literally, I realized that I cant do it. I have a family to take care of, I do not fit in with the church and I gave up the idea of 'selling out for Christ and becoming a missionary'. I tired of the things I found on this thread, figuring out Gayness or what is sin or not. I'm tired. I'm also free to not be a hypocrite anymore. 

hear that again, I am free. I am no longer deciding which passages to take literally based on my personal preferences. The burden is no longer on me to Believe the right thing or risk eternal damnation. Good luck to the rest of you figuring it all out. I had a professor that told me something- quit trying to figure out what is Right and Wrong and you will learn so much more. Hear what the text says, not what you want it to say.<br type="_moz" />


I hear you on all counts, zealot. I think there are many here who would not even consider me to be a Christian, since I do not believe in the penal substitution theory of the atonement, an eternal hell fire (or any hell 'fire' at all actually), the Trinity, etc. Sometimes I wonder myself if I should even call myself a Christian anymore lol. I take my cue from Ziggy Marley - Love is my religion! :D
7/31/12 12:28 AM
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Ali
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RoidsGracie - Sounds like the best option here is to do the same thing if you came upon someone that doesn't speak the same language as you out on the street - just ignore each other's glances and be on your way.


Well of course, RoidsGracie -- you make a good point. Except I wasn't talking to one person, in this case, whoever responded and "personalized". 

My statements were perhaps short and gnomic and applicable, but my intention wasn't to provoke anything unfriendly.  I didn't share my assessment of how often anyone in particular relies on logical fallacies or is foolish or is pretentious or a blowhard. None of that was at issue. As it was, I think the dialogue could have gone better, but it wasn't a waste.  At least some of my quotes were illustrated fairly perfectly by the response. Even I thought them to be largely non-responsive otherwise.

 I'm surprised it took Ridgeback so long to remember he meant to ignore me.  I'm also surprised he's using the word "Christian" after expressing that he thought the word was worthless.  I certainly never went anywhere near trying to tell "how to live as a struggling member of a Christian community".  Not a hint of that. So there's a reading problem.

I am interested in the political influence (and often activism) of religious groups in the profane political world.  That's true.  And I understand Ridgeback saying he's not interested in preventing marriage (or at least civil unions) outside of the Church.  Kudos, I'm all for that attitude.  I am concerned about religious influence on, say, Prop. 8 in my own state (and as far as I know, particularly the Mormon and Scientologist pressure and money -- lest anyone be concerned that I'm picking on something more generic).  Also influence of various religious groups -- particularly the Douglas Coe folks, known, among other things, as "The Family" -- in Uganda, and in support of candidates who were proposing really draconian penalties for homosexual behavior, and even for knowledge of such behavior on the part of others ("snitch" laws).  (I am aware that this was backpedaled from in 2009, and soft sold as only concerns for pedophilia laws; but that's a later development).  This issue is examined rather extensively by the investigative journalist Jeff Sharlet, at least as far the involvement of The Family and Washington D.C. power-brokering.  I didn't know, until this thread, that there was some Exodus International involvement in that particular episode, either.  It's not clear to me they knew what they were getting into, or whether they meant to do harm.  But de facto their religious convictions got spread into nominally secular governing.

I think strong nuclear families are a good thing for social cohesion, by the way, and that the government has had an interest  in promoting that since the beginning.  So I certainly understand a certain politically conservative point of view on this -- and I understand the public policy interests.  I think there are countervailing interests in individual rights and I think protecting pluralism in this area in no way threatens the nuclear family.   (This is obviously apart from the Church interest, and not really the main point of this thread -- but it came up with various mentions of the government interest in the "marriage business").

More directly germane, I used to be a church-goer. Even occasionally when I lived in West Hollywood, where the congregation had a very large proportion of gay parishioners. And the priests there were anything but liberal. So while I don't have a dog in that particular race, I do see some very good folks working for "change from within" or struggling with the idea of "leaving", and I do find it interesting -- and relevant to some friends, certainly -- how the church communities respond and either support or dismiss their struggles. (I think anyone who pays attention will acknowledge that there are many educated church goers are astonishing virtuosos of dismissiveness).

 Just for the sake of reasoning in a group, and for my own edification, I'd be genuinely curious to know whether the Vincentian Canon was being referenced as an authority, and whether it was "appealed to" or not.  This is apart from the fact that my mention of the appeal to authority earlier was decidedly *not* in reference to anyone's mention of it.  I'm only now curious as to how the reference to it is to be understood as other than an appeal to authority.  Still, the person who brought it up has already decided to ignore my posts, so I'll be at peace with the lack of explication as a small, lost opportunity.  I didn't hold out very high hopes for it other than as a possible performative self-contradiction, anyway.  But I was ready and willing -- even eager -- to be surprised.

Apologies for the "FRAT". I'm not usually able or willing to type for this long at one time. And there are necessarily things that are exactly the wrong length on these forums -- so MUCH to respond to, or break down, in so many posts on this thread. Really often I can't tell if a particular thought, as expressed, is really smart and insightful or completely free of substance. (This is one reason I ask questions, or challenge particular little bits of posts -- to try to tease out something manageable within the context). Many times there's so much to shuffle through, tangents invited, shared background assumed, etc., that it's just hard to know what's worth dialogue -- or investigation.

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