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HolyGround >> Homosexual Christians


7/31/12 10:00 AM
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CJJScout
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Google search: Jonathan Merritt.

Lots of stuff going on about this right now. Ed Setzer has a blog interview with him. His dad is a big evangelical figure and pastors a church around the corner from where I live. Not my church, but one my parents have gone to on occasion.
7/31/12 1:08 PM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman - Ridge, my post wasn't directed at you per se, although you are more apt to lean on tradition than most of us here. Nothing wrong with that, I just think we have to be careful choosing what traditions to rely on, and I'm not trying to say that about Orthodoxy, just in general. In hindsight I realized later that I was making comments about the government and homosexual unions rather than sticking to the thread topic, which is homosexual Christians. I agree with your statements about government regulation of marriage. I'm against forcing churches to ordain or marry gays as well, I see that as an abridgment of religious freedom. There are plenty of other churches and places for gay people to worship as Christians without forcing churches that disagree with the lifestyle to accept them.

Not to derail the thread, but has anyone ever heard of a movement to recognize gay Muslims? Or is a Christian phenomenon?

 Of course a blind loyalty to mere tradition would be foolish.  But as Chesterton said, tradition means giving a vote to more than just the people who happen to be walking around at the moment.  If we are talking about how to become a saint, then relying on the experience of a wide variety of people from a wide variety of cultures and times who did become saints over the course of their lives I think is worth heeding.  And as far as I know none of them taught or advocated for gay marriage in the church.  From an Orthodox perspective the question becomes "does this lead to theosis or move me away from it."  I should be willing to give up everything that leads away from theosis since the other direction is a direction of death, disintegration, non-communion, and nihilism.

Anyway, my only point (since nobody else on here is Orthodox) was that if we look over the span of Christian history we just don't see examples of gay marriage within the church.  Of course there were people with same sex attractions, but it was never viewed as a way to become more Christlike.  So that should at least give modern Christians pause before they simply say "what's the big deal."  To paraphrase Chesterton again, "it is foolish to tear down a fence before you ask why it was put up in the first place."

And with the exception of the Rev (whose take on this matter I have already pointed out I respect and think comes from a motivation of compassion) the only people on this thread who seem to be advocating for gay marriage within Christian bodies are those who belong to and commune with none.  

7/31/12 1:32 PM
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Ridgeback
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zealot66 -  BTW, I think the point of this thread is really that Christians are selective in their interpretation of scripture. Perhaps John is being selective and the others selective. No anal sex-Literal      Give all you have to the poor and follow jesus- Not literal.

Quite frankly, taking the bible literally set me on my course of deconversion from fundamental Evangelical Christianity. Jesus said that you needed to sell what you have and follow him and many other things I am not willing to do at this point in my life. So I no longer live in a fairy tale world of 'rightly dividing the word of truth' or playing church or playing Christian. Once I decided to take the bible literally, I realized that I cant do it. I have a family to take care of, I do not fit in with the church and I gave up the idea of 'selling out for Christ and becoming a missionary'. I tired of the things I found on this thread, figuring out Gayness or what is sin or not. I'm tired. I'm also free to not be a hypocrite anymore. 

hear that again, I am free. I am no longer deciding which passages to take literally based on my personal preferences. The burden is no longer on me to Believe the right thing or risk eternal damnation. Good luck to the rest of you figuring it all out. I had a professor that told me something- quit trying to figure out what is Right and Wrong and you will learn so much more. Hear what the text says, not what you want it to say.

 I honestly wasn't aware that Jesus made a general statement to all Christians to turn over their financial resources at baptism.  The odd thing here then is that we have examples of wealthy Christians not giving all their money away and still being accepted into the fold very early in Christian history.  Iraneaus mentions the wealthy Christians sharing their money to help the poor ones in his description of early Christian services around 150 AD but not giving it all away.  There are certainly stories of many people doing that very thing (St. Nicholas of Myra did over the course of his life) but it was never taken as a general order for every person.  Conversely, the sexual ethics of Judaism and then early Christianity were pretty clear.  

It sounds like you are going into a bit of an intellectual haze on this one.  Either you have to cut off your genitals and give all your money away or you can't really be a Christian right?  


7/31/12 8:23 PM
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Ali
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Edited: 07/31/12 10:25 PM
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Ridgeback - 
 
....the only people on this thread who seem to be advocating for gay marriage within Christian bodies are those who belong to and commune with none.  



As I said, being neither gay nor Christian, I don't have a dog in that particular race. And I'll bracket what it means not "to commune" with "Christian bodies" (ok, let's say that's me among others, arguendo) BUT...
I've been following this thread perhaps with less than due care -- so I ask: where did someone advocate for gay marriage within Christian bodies? Can someone point out the sentences for me? I don't see them.
8/1/12 10:28 PM
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Ali
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Edited: 08/01/12 10:42 PM
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No? No advocacy for gay marriage within Christian bodies? Actually I just read the whole thread and don't see it. Not a sentence, not a word of it. It's not there.
So is that just tilting at windmills? A misreading? Engaging in straw-man arguments? Moving the goalposts? An honest mistake? Paranoia?
The logical fallacies and concern with scoring points are interesting. And I think pretty directly related to why rev started the thread -- the safekeeping of some blindnesses and the routing out of others.

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