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6/16/12 10:11 PM
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colubrid1
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reverend john - Keep clinging to your rigid moralism and you will continue to miss Christ and the life giving Spirit of grace <br><br>Oh Lord have mercy on my a sinner, I tell you now this man rose up justified<br><br>Rev <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>



John,

I will send you an email later this week (busy with daughters B-day and travel to fresno until tuesday). There is something i need to finish explained and it was weird and frustrating we kept getting cut off and not being able to finish a sentence or thought. It was my fault for leaving it the way it was and I should have called back later or emailed you because there was something i wanted o say after the last question you asked.

There is nothing worse than trying to communicate over the phone and losing connection over and over again.

6/17/12 11:37 AM
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zealot66
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 Which scripture ? the one pre cannon or after cannon? IMO, making the bible an idol is not what God intended christianity to be. You are worshiping and replacing God and Christ with the Bible, literally.
6/17/12 12:45 PM
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colubrid1
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zealot66 -  Which scripture ? the one pre cannon or after cannon? IMO, making the bible an idol is not what God intended christianity to be. You are worshiping and replacing God and Christ with the Bible, literally.



Z-
I don't know if this post was meant for me or not. But if it is why do you attack me when it is about scripture. argue from that!

The bible is NOt "God". The paper is not divine. , but the thoughts are Gods thoughts written down.

Sure the bible are not Gods only words. We know that God has spoken audibly to people. He speaks to us through His creation, through the holy spirit in impression, but ultimatly He speaks to man through his holy scripture.
6/17/12 1:15 PM
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reverend john
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the revelation of God is his Son, ultimately God speaks to us in many ways, through the church through whom the ability to bind and loose is given, and the keys to the kingdom are given. Through the Spirit illuminating the scripture but also giving words of wisdom and knowledge and prophecy. Through the natural sciences, and the studying of God's good creation, including the mind and its inner workings. Through the scriptures as interpreted by the church, contextually. But ultimately all of this bows its knees to the person of Jesus, as it is only Jesus that is called the Way, the Truth and the Life, who says if we have seen him we have seen the Father, who is called the "exact representation of God's being"

Jesus had no love for the scribes, whether they were Sadducee or Pharisee, they used the book as a weapon of oppression, not a path towards the loving Father. The modern evangelical too often goes down that path. Deciding like the OP has what is "acceptable" and what is not based on this rigid bibliotry, rather than embracing the life giving Spirit of grace, mercy and unconditional love.

I might remind the OP and myself for that matter, that the only ones Jesus ever condemned were those that held strongly to the scriptures and the religious devotion to the law. Jesus was found among the sinners, drunks and even race traitors who made their living exploiting their own people. If Jesus were to come today it would be the fundamentalists including the fundamentalist Catholics who would miss him and persecute him again, calling him a heretic, a sinner, and a sell out. While the ostracized, the drunks, the homosexuals, the heretics would find themselves His friends. Things have not changed much.

rev
6/17/12 2:46 PM
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colubrid1
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Edited: 06/17/12 4:23 PM
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john,
The reason i enjoy reading the things you write and i get things out of them so because of statements like above.

However, we cannot throw out scripture. Espcially when it comes to marriage and divorce amongst 2 christians. Jesus word are very clear.

My take is this. It is not that an adulterous christian can't be forgiven for remarrying. The question is are were they christian when they sought a divorce and remarried? If they were, then god would have chastened them before remarrying.




We can't redefine what Jesus meant. That is the problem in the church, and with every person who claims they are christian but are not obedient to his word.

Many will come to Him on that day and say haven't we done this and that, fed the poor ect all in your name. The works we do are worth nothing w/o obedience.
6/17/12 7:10 PM
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reverend john
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Isn't it funny you completely misquoted the scripture

The actual scripture says many will come saying havent we prophesied, cast out demons and did "wonderous" works in your name, and I will say depart from me I did not know you

This was in the midst of the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus is in fact saying do not be violent, love your enemies, do not judge people.

If you were referring to Luke it is in the same context where Jesus is talking about judging others, and blessed are the poor, woe to the rich

rev
6/17/12 7:13 PM
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reverend john
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And I never once said throw out scripture, do not say such a dishonest thing again, that is bearing false witness against your brother. I said only that you cannot worship scripture and point to its purpose.

rev
6/17/12 8:35 PM
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colubrid1
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Edited: 06/17/12 8:57 PM
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Yes i did misquote that in textual meaning. Lesson learned . Next time I should just post the actual scripture. It was because i have two things on the brain and one has to do with our conversation where we kept getting cut off on the phone.



Anyway, my point is still the same. How many times does it say repent and obey in the NT? It is not a grace free card for all that it appears to me you seem to promote and then say it is worshipping scripture if one does. That is where the confusion comes in.

I am also combining what I read here and what we spoke of on the phone regarding hat the scriptur says of marriage and divorce.

I still need to call you when you phone is fixed so we you can understand better what i am saying.



6/17/12 9:02 PM
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colubrid1
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reverend john - And I never once said throw out scripture, do not say such a dishonest thing again, that is bearing false witness against your brother. I said only that you cannot worship scripture and point to its purpose.

rev



I said WE cannot throw out scripture because it is the ultimate authority. If "we" do (not you) we have no bases to argue from.

6/17/12 9:22 PM
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reverend john
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The implication was that I was saying scripture can be thrown out. My phone is fine, it was just not charged and my charging chord was not keeping up with the phone call.

Yet once again, you continue to harp on the one command that is effecting you, yet I don't hear you demanding people obey all of Jesus commands about money, violence and forgiveness. You even say people aren't Christians if they don't obey this particular command, yet have in the past called other sins like gossip, greed, divisiveness and others as "lesser" sins.

rev
6/17/12 9:23 PM
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colubrid1
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Edited: 06/17/12 11:03 PM
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reverend john - Keep clinging to your rigid moralism and you will continue to miss Christ and the life giving Spirit of grace
6/17/12 10:31 PM
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colubrid1
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reverend john - . You even say people aren't Christians if they don't obey this particular command, yet have in the past called other sins like gossip, greed, divisiveness and others as "lesser" sins.

rev



Adultery between 2 christians is like other sins if they repent. It is clear what Jesus says about adultery and the marriage covenant between two christians..it is for life.

For instance a christian man cannot marry a christian woman who divorced her husband for unscriptual reasons. WHILE SHE WAS A CHRISTIAN! That is an adulterous relationship in Gods eyes. If he does marry her he is an adulterer as well until he repents and leaves her. It does not matter how many children they have as you put it..but i see how your heart goes out for the childen and that is where it gets confusing with your assements.

Divorce IS different from other sins because it is a fact we must STOP the adulterous relationship no matter how far we dug yourself in. It is not like other sins where you can say jesus forgive me a sinner and not obey. Not like falling off the wagon as with other sins in that aspect.


Christian adulterers want forgiveness but are unwilling to repent.


What i get from you is you adhere to #2:

Here we have two understandings of Matthew 19:9. (1) The one understands that "adultery" in Matthew .19:9 refers sexual immorality. The act of sexual immorality is committed when a person who divorces his mate for some reason other than fornication and marries again has sexual relations with his mate. In order for this person to be saved, the adultery (sexual immorality) must cease, thus demanding the breaking of the marriage entered by one who divorced his mate for some reason other than fornication. (2) The second interpretation states that the "adultery" of Matthew 19:9 is the act of divorcing and remarrying. The one who has committed "adultery" must repent of having divorced his mate and having remarried, resolving in his heart not to divorce and remarry again. He then not only can continue to live with the mate to whom he is married but is obligated to continue that marriage. Which of these understandings is correct depends upon the meaning of the word "adultery."

"Those who are guilty of committing adultery (in the case of having put away one's mate for some reason other than fornication and have remarried) must cease the committing of sexual immorality - they must break off their unscriptural marriage. All agree that the adultery must be ceased and the consensus of the Greek scholars is that "adultery" means "sexual immorality."



My point in this. Your question was "if a person remarries and they were a christian when they divorced for unscriptual reasons. And they remarry and have kids. That should they leave that spouse to go back to the first who they divorced for just being annoyed with them.'

I said yes. But that is where we got cut off over the phone. you see that is the wrong question to ask. Because I beleive if a person is truly saved God will allow them to go only so far before chastening them. Divorce is a long process and so is the time it takes to find another spouse and go through another wedding. So it is not like other sins in that respect. It takes some undoing if a truly saved person would take it that far.

Now if that person was not saved during the first divorce and then they got married in the lord the second time. Then yes, God forgives all past sins of the unbeleivers. But the beleiver is called to repentance and obedience. That is how we know we are saved.





6/17/12 11:19 PM
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reverend john
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That may be how you think you are saved

My salvation is based on Christ, and his death and resurrection, and His sufficiency not mine.

rev
6/18/12 12:10 AM
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colubrid1
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Edited: 06/18/12 12:38 AM
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So your saying live it up and we all go to heaven anyway. I think i am tired of my wife and just divorce her and marry someone else.

No repentance neccessary.


You are saying this person is saved?


Or are you redefining what Jesus meant by adultery? Divorce?






6/18/12 12:45 AM
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colubrid1
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Matthew 19:9 ESV
And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.


Exodus 20:14 ESV
“You shall not commit adultery.


Mark 10:12
and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”




?1 Corinthians 7:10-11 ESV
To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.




Malachi 2:16 ESV
“For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”


Mark 10:12 ESV
And if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

?1 Corinthians 7:39 ESV
A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord





Luke 16:18 ESV
“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.





Mathew 19
He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 And I say to you, (I)whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery”

10 The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”
6/18/12 12:54 AM
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reverend john
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And I could list twice as many scriptures about how you handle money you as diligent about that? God indeed calls us to follow and obey and not one of us can do so. So we all need Gods grace.

I will say no more about this on this board. Call me if you wish but I guarantee you won't like what I have to say.

But just so everyone else is clear I am against divorce even in the case of sexual immorality as we are taught to forgive

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6/18/12 2:40 AM
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colubrid1
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Edited: 06/18/12 6:52 AM
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John,
So what you beleive is really no different from those grace alone churches where you will find more sin and more sexual immorality than anywhere active in the church. I know because this past weeks I have been stopping by and interviewing for a new church they ay the same thing you do.

A person who gets drunk and says says I confess and I hate it and i repent is a christian.

Those that say I got drunk and says I have Gods grace, is wrong

Basically a wife can leave her husband and children and walk down the street to another church where they will accept her and she can get remarried because they teach the same thing as you do.

See the problem is with the church and church disciplin.

All the while this grace doctrine has no problem overlooking the victims which would be the victim spouse and the children. What you are teching is the adulterer just has to do is say I am sorry to God and thinks God will recognize her new marriage which all should respect.

BUT HE DOES NOT!

HE NEVER WILL RECEOGNICE AN ADULTEROUS RELATIONSHIP!

If i went to the same chuch she does and said i am her husband and she and that guy are adulterers and i want my wife to come back home, you would toss me and our children , right? Because you honor the second marriage even though the aduterous spouse never repented by reconciliation.

This is actully a true life story for me. Sooo, I don't think a person is a christian without true repentence.



All this destruction and divorce in the church is because people don't fear God. They don't know they are saved from His wrath. They think it is a stamp to get out free card and do whatever they want.

That is what i see. I am really against this watered down grace. And yes adultery is a different type of sin. Marriage is for life. So one is bound to that sin for life. Not like murder. Though God can save you the consequences of the law won't.

You ever notice when scriture talks about marrige and divorce there is a gender difference for men and woman.


Not like falling and saying i repent. With repentence comes obedience. With divorcing a christian spouse how can God not call that person or marriage and adulterous relationship.

Raising my daughter by myself since she was 3 months old I know how it feels. I have a lot more compassion and respect how hard it is to raise a child for a WOMAN by herself. All the while her christian husband who cheated on her now happily resides in a new family and attends church where they enetered a new covenenant of marriage.

tell those woman about your Jesus and His grace card again. tell them their spouse does not have to repent and come back.








.

Repentance and obedience.
6/18/12 6:55 AM
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colubrid1
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And tell them they are saved.
6/18/12 9:14 AM
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reverend john
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Tip that's me... I am the do whatever you like guy

Idiotic

Rev Phone Post
6/18/12 12:06 PM
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reverend john
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btw, you are ignoring what I say completely, and how I live. I am not divorced, I do not cheat, I am not living in adultery, I do not support adultery, nor fornication. I also condemn people continuing to live in the sin of idolatry, materialism, pride.

Perhaps you should ask yourself and the God you follow about your own sin. Maybe take out the logs in your own eyes before you can attempt to take out others? Or is that part of the bible not one you hold to?

rev
6/18/12 3:35 PM
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colubrid1
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reverend john - 
Perhaps you should ask yourself and the God you follow about your own sin. Maybe take out the logs in your own eyes before you can attempt to take out others? Or is that part of the bible not one you hold to?

rev



..and God has chastened me about things i did not see in my past as sin because i used the grace card.. let me tell you it is no walk in the park being chastised. Thanks to sound doctrine!

Now I shouldn't have to tell anyone what to do or how to live their life.. That should be the churches responsibilty. And that is who i am having a problem with and the things i discuss with them as i am looking for a new church home. It is the church that is supposed to discipline, instead of continueing welcoming a "christian" who is living in adulterous relationships or marriages.

If a married couple is in a church and one of the spouses seeks a divorce or is sleeping with someone. The church should talk to the offending spouse. If they don't listen and don't want to reconcile, they should be cut off.Period! Not welcomed in. Until they stop the adulterous relationship and go back to their spouse and ask for forgivness..

How would you handle a situation like this in your fellowship John?

The churches i talked to beleive the adulterers should be alllowed to continue coming. Even after they get remarried. Cause they say, as I beleive you have, that God forgives them without going back to their spouse. Also what if the spouse does not want them back and they go back to the person they left the marriage for?? Then it's okay? I think that God still sees that new marriage as an adulterous one. Kids or no kids involved. Even worse so because they enterered into a blasphemous covenant while the husband or wife is still alive.

From what I understood from speaking with you, this is were you and i do not agree. Correct me if i am wrong. So forgive me if i made an assumption that I misundertood.


..and how is that different if they go down the street to another church??? Then it is okay?

I think this topic regarding adultery is interesting because of the relationship parallels between Christ and His bride. Would God still consider those saved if they worship other gods and abandon the teachings of Jesus? Very different from other sins like homosexuals attending church, athiests, the lost, ect. I think it is a different kind of sin today and one where God demonstartes His I am talking about two christians, where one wants a divorce or is involved in adultery already and wants a divorce. Not an unsaved person married to a beleiver or two beleivers getting a divorce.

The reason God wrote told us not to divorce because He knows we WANT to divorce. That is why he said not to. Explain to me how that is possible to be a christain and continue in that sin? With others sins it is easier. Like pride. Just repent and don't do it. And one CAN repent from adultery. But there is more involved than just saying sorry to God and getting remarried to someone else or continueing in that adulterous marriage.. It requires OBEDIENCE if one is truly saved.

A christian can sin. But they don't continually sin against God. Now the church makes the mistake by excusing their sin. But Gods eyes those are still adulterous marriages and relationships until that christian repents and tries to reconcile.
6/18/12 4:13 PM
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reverend john
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God took Israel back over and over and over and over again.

As to my church, my church would decide how to deal with it, God gave the power to bind and loose to the church, not to leaders.

But the fact is you once again are judging others, you are condemning the woman caught in adultery, you would throw the stone, and you are justifying yourself. I have listened to you, I understand your situation, I have prayed, and I believe the word of the Lord to you is, "take out the log in your own eye before you attempt to take out the log in your brothers" If you want to hear more you can call me. I am done talking to you here, as it appears you will not listen.

rev
6/18/12 4:19 PM
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colubrid1
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The woman caught in adultery was not a christian.

I will call you again. Left a message yesterday.
6/18/12 4:40 PM
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reverend john
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so grace for everyone but the Christians?

don't call me today I have church in my home tonight

rev
6/20/12 4:51 PM
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zealot66
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colubrid1 - 
zealot66 -  Which scripture ? the one pre cannon or after cannon? IMO, making the bible an idol is not what God intended christianity to be. You are worshiping and replacing God and Christ with the Bible, literally.



Z-
I don't know if this post was meant for me or not. But if it is why do you attack me when it is about scripture. argue from that!

The bible is NOt "God". The paper is not divine. , but the thoughts are Gods thoughts written down.

Sure the bible are not Gods only words. We know that God has spoken audibly to people. He speaks to us through His creation, through the holy spirit in impression, but ultimatly He speaks to man through his holy scripture.
It wasn't a personal attack. The internet is hard to communicate on. I think over the years, I've come to recognize a pathology in christianity. worship of the 'Word'. If you are a christian, it contains the divine thoughts relayed by man. I think they are records of people in a certain time, place, and such. Of course some of the principles are timeless. 

Your version of the bible, your theology, that is, you consider to be correct or you wouldnt adhere to it. No christian thinks he or she has a wrong understanding of the bible. When you block out all else besides the bible and your interpretation, you become a right fighter. Being right is the most important thing there is, because to think otherwise would mean you aren't right with God ( by most christians understanding). 

As long as you Believe the right thing about the Bible and theology, you are saved, in essence. I would say to a young christian to read and get to know the bible. I think like the majority of Americans are completely ignorant of our own history, Christians are even more ignorant of what they believe. The only time the open the book is when they go to church and then have someone tell them what it says. 

Christianity is not bound to a book, imo.
 

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