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JKD UnderGround >> Analysis of BL fight scenes

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6/20/12 1:22 AM
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Stickgrappler
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WSP,

i would add Cus D'Amato to your excellent list. he understood fear and psychology of what a fighter goes through and feels and teach his fighters so they know.
6/20/12 7:28 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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6/20/12 8:25 AM
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To summarize, when we are trying to understand our physicality, learn to develop spiritually, mentally, physically, we try to access what we know, we take advice from various 'experts' and at times we end up caught up in the whole 'hero worship'.

That's what happened to the BL phemonmen. But we took it too far, we got on that 'boat' and we failed to disembark.

To help with that you have to look at the ways people learn, how they internalize and how they functionalize. BL tried to say 'don't look at me, I'm just a finger point to the moon'. He was channeling Krishnamurit, one of his idols who left the whole movement back then and disbanded everything, because he saw he was being used as a crutch.

I'm trying to say that the problem with idolizing BL and JKD is that it might be that an 'interception style' is wrong for you (as an individual). You have to look at the framework that BL used to develop that (Which is BIGGER than just JKD) and find out what that is, then deduce and derive your OWN method. We now know it has to have a basis in an alive art. We should also look for that framework mentally and spiritually and see how to activate and utilize these things, work them in conjunction and synergistically.

Then we find our own way and you don't really need the heroes. You can be you own hero.

Look at the types of trainers, use experts still, sure. FWIW
6/20/12 9:16 AM
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Stickgrappler
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WidespreadPanic:

Thank you! sadly i'm firewalled at work from seeing them. Hope they show up ok.



Well said/written!
6/20/12 9:30 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Here's an example of a 'framework'. 

We all have three aspects, Parent, Adult, Child. When people say 'I'm not a child' and refuse their child-like nature they don't know the framework and thus discount an important aspect. You also learn that when someone else is being childish, you don't react by being more childish. There's childish and childlike of course. One good and one more acting out.

So you bring the calm parent to their child. You get a win-win, you nurture rather than contend and the dynamic is resolved. If you don't know the framework or sort of the 10,000 foot view, you can't figure out how the dynamics work.

In Marital Arts, we now know the framework. BL 'saw' the framework in a visionary sense but didn't know all the part. He saw several interlocking frameworks or pieces and he thought he knew the whole thing (at time).

At other times he doubted himself and that vision. I don't know if he realized that the framework was all-important. But told his sparring partner that he felt that 'Interception' had failed, because he was not fast enough to bring that game against every attack. But if he had been able to see that there were several games within standup, interception, block then strike, and other aspects, then he would have fit that in where needed. He also had an INKLING that there was a clinch/tieup game, but he was stuck in the WC tieup game and reverted to the comfort zone instead of exploring the wrestling clinch tie up and the judo grip fighting game, making his fit in the framework of the whole range. He kind of knew there was a takedown game, but he used the faulty TMA version of wristlocks (out of the right realm) as the only way (see GoD with the TKD guy) and he knew there was a weapons range (with the whole other aspects within that) and he knew there was a grappling groundfighting game but he did not understand at the time "delivery systems" and 'functionalizing' and using rolling as a means of internalizing. Had someone been able to give him an 'aha!' moment on that and showed him the whole framework, he'd have been right there understanding it in one big insight.


6/20/12 10:02 AM
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Stickgrappler
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good points, just to add that sadly we will never know... died too young.
6/20/12 11:03 AM
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Edited: 06/20/12 11:07 AM
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Stick, have you ever read Jesse Glover's books, especially 'Between WC and JKD'?

If you read that it will give you tremendous additional insight into BL's way of doing things. I read it back in the 1980s.

Jesse still has copies and if you email him he will send them. I got them autographed and also his other two books on the Non-Classical GF stuff.

I feel that due to my research and suddenly having an insight into the framework, which was almost complete back then, plus the work that SBG did on aliveness, that now I have nearly the whole picture.

What I did, instead of becoming a BL fanboy, is to try and use MA and his 'approach' to branch out into all other areas from Art to History to philosophy, to mental and physical training and diet and nutrition and use that nucleus of 'what BL did' as a springboard for my other endeavors.

There's a multi-faceted approach.
1. I would find areas that were weak and make them strong. But though BL did that with localized areas, such as his bridge and his wrist and finger strength, areas that even strong men have a weak link, I made it bigger and found areas of physicality and mentality that were weak. Instead of saying 'oh I'm too big and muscular to jog or run', I went out and got the whole jogging routine, clothes, shoes, books, and entered 10k races and fun runs because I couldn't jog more than a mile. Because of that I learned about training zones and active recovery and base training. I 'became' the thing I wanted to aspire to. But, at the same time, I didn't have these huge expectations, I knew that layered onto my MA training and understanding of fighting (though rudimentary), that if I could get great base training, then I could beat my MA senior and others, just be being able to 'outlast' them and still be fresh when they weakened. But I was able to keep my expectations low, never needed to win a race/fun run, just finish in the middle of the pack, because it was and end AND a means to a bigger end. 

2. I would research the hell out of stuff and try to always go back to the original source. PubMed, research journals, and not rely on 'claims' of vitamin companies.

3. Research my own experience. I didn't just go with what was supposed to be effective 'by the book', I left some latitude for my own body and even the 'placebo effect' to take me where I needed to go.

4. To do this I used tracking and journaling. I would not remember the training ride three weeks ago, but I knew the work I put in at that time would show up in a peak or mini-peak today (three week lag).

5. I graphed my peaks, minipeaks and how to 'taper' as they call it in running, realizing that different activities had differing taper regimes.

(by 'taper' I mean a cut of the activity by a certain percent allowing the body to rest and go into supercompensation, resulting in a strong peak, hoping to coincide with the actual event. A running taper might be a cut back of 30% and one rest day. But if you mis-time your taper you could peak before or after the event. So you have to track to figure that out.

6. Self-coaching - by using these things you learn how to self-coach. You can also get a 'real coach' and work with them for a few weeks and learn all their secrets and then bring this back to your self-coaching knowledge. (i.e. summer training camps).

7. Positive and negative self-talk (this is my 'meditation' along with actively visualizing and dream-state work).

Anyway that's how it worked for me. I used this regime, self-coaching and positive and negative 'self-talk' for the mental part, then tracked it and learned what worked best for me.

Sorry for the FRAT, lol.
   
6/20/12 1:59 PM
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Stickgrappler
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really great writeups WSP, thank you for sharing!

i never got into the MA like you did... all-in and hardcore-like although i should've -- but lack of focus/discipline/funds/training partners and concentrating on girls (albeit clumsily) and then the inevitable Family Man stage of Life.




i don't think i've read his books, believe it or not, but then again, i've not read ALL the BL books or JKD books out there. lately, been getting back into BL and JKD, but with a slight fanboy perspective unlike your critical perspective. when i grow up i wanna be just like you lol


seriously, thank you!
6/20/12 1:59 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 06/20/12 2:00 PM
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What kind of standup regimes are there?
1. Crazy monkey - peek-a-boo style, but dynamic, shifting body height, not bending down, torquing and putting active elbow shield into the attack. Plusses - you are not covering an 'area', you are covering a vital point (head, chin, temple, point of jaw). Very economical. If a punch is wide you stay in range, you don't miss opportunities trying to re-close gap. Very conservative of energy. But, takes a lot of partner work to get used to. Minuses - Works best with gloves, not as good with bare hands (adapt it as Rodney King does).

2. Interception - must have insane attributes, proprioception, contact reflexes, be sharp and fresh. If tired or if opponent is faster you're in trouble unless you can cultivate fast eyes, pick up moves from shoulder telegraphs. Very timing-dependent. Works good if you have a certain body type, works good if you have good, fast lunge and penetration step. Works good in wrestling if you have a lot of mat time and have a better wrestling base than opponent. Not just for striking.

3. Blocking and striking. Block then strike, simultaneous block and strike. Some Japanese karate players have made his work. It's surprising. Mas Oyama was so bull-big and formidable and tough, he could just do block and strike attacks. Plusses - it's bull rush, stand your ground, jam his moves type of offense. Works well if you fake and appear to be a runner.

4. Running - you can escape, escape, escape, then intercept or block/jam. You can snipe, fade and hit like Ali. 

5. Jamming - it's bit like interception, use of head spear, shoulder smash, clinch and knee, grip fight, and throw. Add to good takedown penetration and you have a good sub-system.

6. Sidestepping, bob and weave, turn and hit, angle step. Works best with a weapon, giving you a little bit of reach and time and angle to get that in. Complex skill in boxing. Advantage is that you can come in and cut angles and get body shots in.

7. Outside (or inside) fighting. Counter punching, long range attacks. Keeping outside or inside the opponent's range

8. Combo - mix of the above.

Mix these up, frustrate your opponent, keep him from categorizing you.
 
6/20/12 2:24 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Between WC and JKD - Amazon

Wow, I've got three copies of this book in storage. I had no idea it was worth that much. Might be more than a grand since I have an autographed copy from Jesse.

I even have a digital copy that I did by hand back in the day somewhere on my HD. (not for distribution, personal use).

Exceptional inside story on BL that you can't find elsewhere.


6/20/12 2:48 PM
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Stickgrappler
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i have to go through my storage, i may have a copy... lots of books i have but haven't read, or read a little and put down etc
6/20/12 4:32 PM
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jrrrrr
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All martial arts work...depending on the level of resistance.
while martial technique is based on physics, physiology and kinesiology, marts are based on the persons REFERENCE POINT of what a fight is and the strategy and tactics needed to win that fight.
BL had one refernce point based on his experiences in Hong Kong fighting not only wing chun, but also on rooftops of HK with choy le fut, hung gar, etc.
In terms of his fitness, he used the fitness and supplimants used at the time. Remember, he died in the early 70s. Im not sure he understood what the supplememnts would do entirely and the hurtful effects that they can have.
6/20/12 5:52 PM
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Edited: 06/20/12 5:54 PM
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jrrrrr - All martial arts work...depending on the level of resistance.
while martial technique is based on physics, physiology and kinesiology, marts are based on the persons REFERENCE POINT of what a fight is and the strategy and tactics needed to win that fight.
BL had one refernce point based on his experiences in Hong Kong fighting not only wing chun, but also on rooftops of HK with choy le fut, hung gar, etc.
In terms of his fitness, he used the fitness and supplimants used at the time. Remember, he died in the early 70s. Im not sure he understood what the supplememnts would do entirely and the hurtful effects that they can have.
This is ridiculous. Are you talking about a martial art with no reference to the person doing it? A tough guy like Jon Bluming could take ballet or taiji and kick your butt.

Reference point? Well back in the day Choy Li Fut was the dominant MA and yes WC was supposedly created as a spoiler for the big swinging moves of the CLF fighters.

I have no idea what you mean 'not sure he understood what the supplememnts(sic) would do'. He was well researched and I can tell you the Megavitamin Therapy books were all the rage back in the early 70s. Health food stores were actually at their peak around that time.

http://www.amazon.com/Megavitamin-Therapy-Ruth-Adams/dp/0523247354
1973.

Not only that you seem to have missed that JKD was made up of 26 arts:
From Paul Vunak's book on Jeet Kune Do he lists the "26 fighting elements of Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do". The various arts input into JKD be it specifc technique or philosophy, etc is what im looking for. The arts like Wing Chun and Western Boxing are obvious, but many of them are not so obvious. Any knowledge about what Bruce Lee "took" from these arts is greatly appreciated!!

1. Wing Chun
2. Northern Praying Mantis
3. Southern Praying Mantis
4. Choy Li Fut
5. Tai Chi Chuan (Wu Family Style)
6. Paqua
7. Hsing-I
8. Bak-Hoo Pai (White Crane)
Bak-Fu Pai (White Tiger)
9. Eagle Claw
10. Ng Ga Kuen (Five Family System)
11. Ny Ying Ga (Five Animal System)
12. Bak Mei Pai (white Eyebrow)
13. Northern Shaolin
14. Southern Shaolin
15. Bok Pai
16. Law Horn Kuen
17. Chin Na
18. Monkey Style
19. Drunken Style
20. Western Fencing 
21. Western Boxing
22. Western Wrestling
23. Jujutsu
24. Escrima
25. Filipino Sikaran
26. Muay Thai

HTH
  
6/21/12 2:40 PM
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jrrrrr
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1 I'm not sure if the sideeffects of steroids and any other muscle building supplement was understood as well back then.. could be wrong. Arnold and numerous bodybuilders used them in the 70's and then they found out about those side effects...

2 - I read the book with the 26 different styles awhile ago. My understanding is that the use of the styles is somewhat questioned. The Jun Fan MA does not use that many styles and they are not mentioned in the Tao of JKD. Guro Dan said he researched those styles in an overall understaning of MA, but not necessarily used in his own personal style.
3 the ref point makes the styles. What is a real fight to you that you need to train for. The way a LEO, a soldier, a housewife, a teenage boy, a MMA guy, etc will have different experiences and expecations of what a real fight is and they will traing for those expectations.
My uderstaning is that BL trained with ref points of a real fight from the HK streets/rooftops of his childhood and styles he saw in the US when he was here.
6/21/12 5:23 PM
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Edited: 06/21/12 5:30 PM
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 1. Yes 'roids were invented back in the 1930s, with androgenic types coming to the fore in the 1940s, and by the time Arnold and others were doing them in the late '60s and early '70s they had sophisticated knowledge of their effects, understood stacking, use of anti-estrogens and other sophisticated knowledge. In fact Frank Zane was so knowledgable they called him 'The Chemist'. As I mentioned, Winstrol was available and we knew that Dianabol was liver toxic (an oral steroid) requiring a first pass through the stomach and digestive system. So, knowing how careful BL was, if we are going to postulate that he did 'roids, he'd be asking a lot of questions, research medical articles talk to doctors and do a lot more than your average gym rat.

I think he'd also want to be legal and would go through an MD and not take a black market vial of 'something' and have some dude shoot him in the gluteus (or try to inject himself). So my -guess- and it's just that, is he'd take the safest, most prudent method and IF he did, then he'd also get lab values making sure his LFTs were good. However, it's possible he just popped some D-bol, who knows. I'm just saying there is a route, using a legal MD that doesn't violate this 'body as a temple' philosophy that many of his fans say make taking roids impossible.

2. On the different styles, there's a hidden framework in there.

3. On the ref points, yes, I call those 'venues of fighting'.
o standing start SD
o sport fighting
o dueling
o war
o melee
o gym fighting
o stage fighting (like swordfighting in the movies).
...and so forth.

These are in addition to 'styles', but also contain styles.

If one only does 'war' type fighting, then they might suck at gym sparring or self-defense. If someone is good in the gym it doesn't mean they'd be good in SD or in the ring when you get the crowd and the bright lights. So, sure, he had some limits as to the type of fighting he needed.

But I'm sure he was aware of the various types.
  
6/22/12 5:23 AM
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When people talk about BL, one thing that you have to take from this is that a lot of the guys who give interviews show a lot of respect for BL as an actor, as a martial artist and though he had his flaws, as a person.

Actors look at the way BL could bring several aspects to the screen. Grace, comedy, ferocity, intensity. And unlike guys who were good on celluloid, who were edited to look like they could do stuff, when we watched the movie, we knew that this guy could do a lot more than they put on screen. When he threw a punch at someone, we knew that this was a guy who, despite knowing camera angles and dramatic intent also threw 2000 punches a day during his normal training.

There's a documentary that isn't seen that often, supposedly directed by Bob Wall (O'Hara in EtD) I'll post in the next message. In it you see some actors and other MA who were pretty full of themselves, pretty cocky guys who sit there and talk almost with reverence about him. Joe Lewis, Mike Stone, Bob Wall, Chuck, these were guys who were good at MA and they were not going to talk about someone who was a dilettante or a poser. Now, I realize that these MA were of that era where they were not really doing full-contact MMA-style fighting but they also fought during the 'blood and guts' era of Tournament Karate.

You also have Hayward Nishioka who was an Olympic Judoka

6/22/12 5:29 AM
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 Part 1 of 9
6/22/12 5:39 AM
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Now, if somehow we could have brought Rickson Gracie into the picture, say magically transported him or Royce into that era, would everyone have flocked to them and said 'now these are real fighters'?

Not really. Outside of the MA community nobody really knows these guys and they're not dynamic movie-star, larger than life, self-promoters the way guys like James Dean and BL and other top stars were. They're lower key guys.

I think BL would have had them do some demos and watched them and realized 'darn, these guys are good', and like he did with Judo Gene Lebell, trained with them behind the scenes and never challenged them (for one thing they were a lot bigger than BL 135lbs, vs 170, 190-ish).

So it's not just fighting ability, knowledge, and skill. BL has to be listed among the pioneers of the MA. He brought a lot of things together and there hasn't been anyone like him since.

6/22/12 9:29 AM
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Can anyone figure out what the underlying framework is within the '26 Arts" of Jun Fan/JKD?

(see above for list).

7/20/12 10:07 PM
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Stickgrappler
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39 years ago today...


whipped up 2 more quick gif's in memory of.


http://i.imgur.com/pc762.gif

http://i.imgur.com/kxV85.gif


i didn't get my bluename powers back (yet), so i'm much obliged in advance to any kind bluenamer who can help out.
7/21/12 3:02 PM
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Here ya go Stick

7/22/12 6:34 PM
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Stickgrappler
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WSP - UDM! TY!!

----------

to answer your question about "Can anyone figure out what the underlying framework is within the '26 Arts" of Jun Fan/JKD?"


just a guess: it's what he had easy access to... we can see it's mostly the CMA. through the exchange of cha cha lessons for CMA lesons, books, and from exchanges with students as well as other instructors at the time... BL investigated those 26 arts.
7/23/12 6:18 PM
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The underlying framework was he was trying to cover all the ranges of fighting. Plus, he did include those that he had access to, such as TaiJi, and Northern and Southern styles.

He wanted something in the weapons range (escrima, fencing), something in the close in range (wrestling and jujutsu (sic)), something in the short punching range, something in the tie up range (WC).

I can only make a supposition, because he does not reveal his plan, but I think it's safe to say that someone who studied all of those, taking the best of each would have the majority of the ranges covered.
7/24/12 1:13 PM
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Stickgrappler
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ah yes, true.

wonder why 'judo' is not in the list. hayward nishioka, judo gene lebell, wally jay, dan inosanto, larry hartsell ... would've been able to show him some stuff, in addition to his judo books in his personal library. iirc, at least one judo book i think he had was moishe feldenkrais' higher judo.

or judo was 'jujutsu' to him
7/26/12 2:15 AM
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jcblass
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Edited: 07/26/12 2:17 AM
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There is a podcast interview with the historic karate guy and legit badass Jim Harrison. In that interview he said that Lee was one of the most naturally talented guy he had ever trained with and an absolute beast. With that said, he mentioned when he would spar with many of the karate champions of that time, Norris and Skipper Mullins, he would struggle. In fact he said in on session Mullions ate him up. However, Harrison says he has no doubt that if Lee made it his goal to be a great tournament champion and dedicate himself to that, he would easily be a world champion. He suggested that his movie star persona would be hurt if he actually lost matches on his way to figuring it all out....

I think Lee should get credit for incorporating western boxing and basic submission techniques into his arsenal in a time when people were still punching like stiff boards and hell bent on giving people flying side kicks. He understood there was techniques that work well on film and techniques that work well in a street situation. Because Lee was a movie star, it is his flamboyant stuff that gets all the attention. However, I think he probably understood fighting better than any martial artist from that period minus a few of the tougher real world martial artist like HArrison.

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