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HolyGround >> Pastor Josh=Everything I hate about Christians


6/29/12 9:55 PM
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Ali
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Edited: 06/29/12 10:42 PM
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Ridgeback - 
Ali - I think there's no surprise at allthe about the differences in belief and practice between pastor josh and rev, sheer or otherwise.

 Not sure if that is directed at me, but if so you can't imagine how little I care what you think.  Maybe you can do haiku at the Rev's church while you simultaneously mock what people hold dear.  


Again I don't know what you're talking about. You have no idea what I can imagine, either, and you're still just fundamentally dishonest, repeatedly, in the name of "winning" arguments or making trivial points in an excessively high tone. I often disagree with you, but I didn't mock you.

What do you hold dear that you think I mocked? I did no mockery, no matter how much you deserve. (I'm curious though -- are you mocking haiku? Or just haiku at rev's church?) I bet you and I hold mostly the same things dear, by the way.

And it's fine with me if you don't care what I think, it's fine with me if you don't read my posts, even. We're on a public forum. I respond to your public posts in a public way sometimes. Your emotional state is not something I'm trying to disrupt or care about one way or another. (Except in general I hope you're well and happy -- like other strangers). Sometimes I try to provoke clarity because I think I've learned from your posts on occasion, and might again, in spite of huge differences in outlook. Sometimes my assessment of when I "might" again is wrong. I remember being wrong many times about many things, and admit it freely. I remember once in August 1993, I was wrong, and I could be wrong again.... (pace Paul Simon)
6/29/12 11:16 PM
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DyingBreed
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JitsuGuy -
DyingBreed - So so many Christians think about salvation as being saved from hell...when it is so much more than that <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Because hell is a myth.... But yeah, I'm not really sure what salvation is but everyone gets it at some point according to scripture.
I mean, we get most, nearly all preachers saying the only way to salvation is to say this specific prayer, be really sorry, and don't sin anymore.

Ok, which prayer is the best? How sorry is sorry enough? How do I not sin anymore when it is so far ingrained in my nature that I do it without realizing it. PAUL, a dude who had one of the biggest supernatural encounters with the risen Christ talked about this after he had been a follower for many years.

Jesus told a guy salvation had come to him when he offered restitution and giving. Another guys friends faith got him there! So who are we to put concrete ridged specifics on something we ourselves have so little understanding?


The thing ALL the salvations mentioned in the gospels have in common is they were all RESPONSES to Jesus Phone Post
6/30/12 12:47 AM
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reverend john
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And the comment about haiku was meant in a non sarcastic loving way I am sure, you accuse me of being bitter and sarcastic.

rev
6/30/12 1:12 AM
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DyingBreed
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Did anyone call you as you offered rev, or am I mixing threads and posters? Phone Post
6/30/12 1:13 AM
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Grakman
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Does the infighting among Christians highlight the problem of basing righteousness on belief rather than conduct? If we weren't arguing about the right doctrine but instead discussing the best way to express love for one another and our fellow man, wouldn't that be more true to following Christ than fighting about lineage and history?
6/30/12 7:58 PM
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Ridgeback
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Grakman - Does the infighting among Christians highlight the problem of basing righteousness on belief rather than conduct? If we weren't arguing about the right doctrine but instead discussing the best way to express love for one another and our fellow man, wouldn't that be more true to following Christ than fighting about lineage and history?

If you believe all men are saved no matter what then how you express "love" is going to be different than if you believe that there is something really at stake when it comes to people's "eternal destiny" and that what they believe and practice may in fact be endangering their souls.  I would assume on some level that the Rev and Pastor Josh butt heads publically because of that concern.  
7/1/12 12:44 AM
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reverend john
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And you and I?

Rev Phone Post
7/2/12 2:23 AM
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Ali
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Edited: 07/02/12 6:19 PM
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Ridgeback - 
 It isn't a perceived attack.  He is bitter and sarcastic towards me all the time.  You are coming in on the end of a very long conversation and have no idea.


Is it an unperceived attack, then? Neat trick, responding. I have a pretty good idea of the conversation as it has played out typed on this forum. Not typing along the way doesn't mean I haven't been reading. People will come in where they come in with public fora by the way. Internet is like that.


Ridgeback -
Yes I use imperfect terms all the time.  That doesnt' mean I don't see the near worthlessness of the word Christian.  It would have been more accurate to call you anti- (insert specific response to the life and teachings of Jesus here).  My thoughts on the term "Christianity" have evolved over time.  I have certainly used it in a generic sense in the past for lack of a better word, but more and more I find it to be less-than-useful for accurate communication.


But you didn't and can't "insert specific response to the life and teachings of Jesus here". I understand that's what the term anti-Christian might mean. But then you have to be more coherent (not merely more "precise") about the limits of the word "Christian" rather than saying it's an umbrella word for completely different religions, and thereby anything close to useless.

This is a bizarre backpedalling from the claim of useless for the term "Christian" -- one which with your academic pretensions I'm surprised you didn't notice before this particular descent into the dreaded "incoherence".

But really, without having to unpack that for you further, I'm taken aback that you would say you called me antiChristian in any such context. I think you were lying, and I think this back-pedal is more lying now. On that thread, the life and teachings of Jesus were not even the topic. Really I made two points: 1) I agreed with another poster that Churches would need to distance themselves from some of the things that were happening in the third world -- specifically witch-burning, and 2) thought that what was happening politically in Uganda and the attempts of capitalizing the "crime" of homosexuality was being supported by a particular group of Dominionists, known as "The Family" among other things -- led by Doug Coe -- and indeed this "in the name of" Christianity was a bane.

Now I got called out for being a bit general in saying certain strains of American Protestantism were virulent in these regards. And I posted an apology if I appeared too general, didn't say it was "American Protestantism in general" but pointed out specific groups of actors in the political world.

After that you swooped in with talk of my showing "true colors" as an anti Christian. When I asked if you to be specific about what you disagreed with, you punched out with a "please stop". Because you seem (this is my diagnostic guess, admittedly) to read what you want to read to support your own self-image, as opposed to what is actually written.

Now if this is against the "life and teaching of Jesus," you didn't say so. And I don't think you thought so. So your fevered ego as badge-carrying detective for Jesus is worthy of some ridicule, and your dishonesty about it since is truly contemptible. For you to now claim that I had said anything derogatory toward the teaching or person of Jesus is just a flat out lie. Those things didn't come up. I went through each item that you might theoretically have been talking about as "antiChristian", but you couldn't identify any such. It seems to me on this thread, then, you're just re-defining what was a meaningless epithet. (Again, doing even that particularly badly, in light of prior claims to uselessness of the term "Christian").

You just needed to create an "enemy" for some unfathomable reason. Of course I think I'm not anti-Christian at all, especially given my family background and still living family members (many of whom -- people I love and respect and downright need -- talk this apostolic-succession stuff with even more fervor than I've read from you. But I might be antiChristian by some definition or other. Certainly in terms some follower of Doug Coe might use. I'd accept that insult proudly from some C-Street house resident. But that's not someone being so squirrelly about the use of language, and someone who represents a truly horrifying tradition. That's not what I think you are. Instead we have someone representing a more honorable tradition contemptibly.

I understand you might not care that I think you're a liar. But since the dishonesty is likely with yourself, maybe there's some hope the cognitive dissonance can be examined fruitfully. And if not, sorry -- but at least I will call out the libel where it was personal.

Oh, and clearly I was wrong about the "bigger fish to fry" comment.
7/10/12 7:41 AM
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PastorJosh
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zealot66 -  Tell me pastor Josh, what evil sin am I committing? Why did I escape the death clutches of your christianity? It surely has to be some secret immorality that I desired that could now engage in. Oh, how I love being wickedly boring. 
When the gospel apologizes to you about your sin, I will. Phone Post
7/16/12 12:54 PM
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JitsuGuy
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DyingBreed - 
JitsuGuy -
DyingBreed - So so many Christians think about salvation as being saved from hell...when it is so much more than that <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Because hell is a myth.... But yeah, I'm not really sure what salvation is but everyone gets it at some point according to scripture.
I mean, we get most, nearly all preachers saying the only way to salvation is to say this specific prayer, be really sorry, and don't sin anymore. <br><br>Ok, which prayer is the best? How sorry is sorry enough? How do I not sin anymore when it is so far ingrained in my nature that I do it without realizing it. PAUL, a dude who had one of the biggest supernatural encounters with the risen Christ talked about this after he had been a follower for many years.<br><br>Jesus told a guy salvation had come to him when he offered restitution and giving. Another guys friends faith got him there! So who are we to put concrete ridged specifics on something we ourselves have so little understanding?<br><br><br>The thing ALL the salvations mentioned in the gospels have in common is they were all RESPONSES to Jesus <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>



And lucky for them, they were responses to a real person... For the rest of us, we must respond to something that is not physical, but emotional and "supernatural." In other words, very near fiction.

As for me. I have no response to Christ, he hasn't yet uttered a word to me.
7/16/12 3:04 PM
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DyingBreed
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JitsuGuy -
DyingBreed - 
JitsuGuy -
DyingBreed - So so many Christians think about salvation as being saved from hell...when it is so much more than that <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Because hell is a myth.... But yeah, I'm not really sure what salvation is but everyone gets it at some point according to scripture.
I mean, we get most, nearly all preachers saying the only way to salvation is to say this specific prayer, be really sorry, and don't sin anymore. <br><br>Ok, which prayer is the best? How sorry is sorry enough? How do I not sin anymore when it is so far ingrained in my nature that I do it without realizing it. PAUL, a dude who had one of the biggest supernatural encounters with the risen Christ talked about this after he had been a follower for many years.<br><br>Jesus told a guy salvation had come to him when he offered restitution and giving. Another guys friends faith got him there! So who are we to put concrete ridged specifics on something we ourselves have so little understanding?<br><br><br>The thing ALL the salvations mentioned in the gospels have in common is they were all RESPONSES to Jesus <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>



And lucky for them, they were responses to a real person... For the rest of us, we must respond to something that is not physical, but emotional and "supernatural." In other words, very near fiction.

As for me. I have no response to Christ, he hasn't yet uttered a word to me.
I see your point exactly. They had the luxury of being able to respond to someone they could follow up with later if needed...in PERSON. But then, they also had the challenge of going against family and culture possibly if they did, so who knows.


The whole fiction idea is just that. It's very hard for a logical person to follow something that requires a complete 180 when there is rarely a tangible to hold on to. That's where the talking thing comes into play, and HAS to happen in order for it to happen. Or at least that's what it took for me anyway. I used to not believe at all until I responded to a specific call. You are right when you say it hasn't happened, because I promise you will know when it does. Just talk back when it happens, and watch where it goes! Phone Post
7/16/12 3:20 PM
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reverend john
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Some very wise response there dying breed

Rev Phone Post
7/16/12 4:03 PM
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JitsuGuy
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DyingBreed - 
JitsuGuy -
DyingBreed - 
JitsuGuy -
DyingBreed - So so many Christians think about salvation as being saved from hell...when it is so much more than that <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Because hell is a myth.... But yeah, I'm not really sure what salvation is but everyone gets it at some point according to scripture.
I mean, we get most, nearly all preachers saying the only way to salvation is to say this specific prayer, be really sorry, and don't sin anymore. <br><br>Ok, which prayer is the best? How sorry is sorry enough? How do I not sin anymore when it is so far ingrained in my nature that I do it without realizing it. PAUL, a dude who had one of the biggest supernatural encounters with the risen Christ talked about this after he had been a follower for many years.<br><br>Jesus told a guy salvation had come to him when he offered restitution and giving. Another guys friends faith got him there! So who are we to put concrete ridged specifics on something we ourselves have so little understanding?<br><br><br>The thing ALL the salvations mentioned in the gospels have in common is they were all RESPONSES to Jesus <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>



And lucky for them, they were responses to a real person... For the rest of us, we must respond to something that is not physical, but emotional and "supernatural." In other words, very near fiction.

As for me. I have no response to Christ, he hasn't yet uttered a word to me.
I see your point exactly. They had the luxury of being able to respond to someone they could follow up with later if needed...in PERSON. But then, they also had the challenge of going against family and culture possibly if they did, so who knows.<br><br><br>The whole fiction idea is just that. It's very hard for a logical person to follow something that requires a complete 180 when there is rarely a tangible to hold on to. That's where the talking thing comes into play, and HAS to happen in order for it to happen. Or at least that's what it took for me anyway. I used to not believe at all until I responded to a specific call. You are right when you say it hasn't happened, because I promise you will know when it does. Just talk back when it happens, and watch where it goes! <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>



I'm a paradox. I'm a neglected black sheep. I grew up in the church... I longed for something, some event, some "proof" that God was real and loved me... I wanted His action in my life, not something someone else did that he could take credit for. I wanted evidence. I never got it. Sure, I had my youth pastors and I'm greatful for their direction and influence, but they were merely people, where was God? Oh that's right, it was God working through them. How convenient. "There's your proof!" Exactly how fair is it to give credit to God for what others have done? It's a rip off of the good-nature and compassion and love of some people if you ask me.

Yeah, I thought I had a relationship with Christ but in my youthful ignorance and lack of self-worth because of the varying circumstances in my life that contributed to my lack of faith - I turned my back and started following the path of reason. I want to believe. I really do. But at some point, some of us have to stop pretending there's something exists that there is absolutely no supporting evidence of...

DyingBreed, your faith is great, because it needs to be, it's time you consider why.
7/16/12 5:41 PM
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reverend john
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hey brother, I think you are maybe expecting a certain thing or another. But I think God has indeed spoken to your heart, and you heard it and recognized it as such. Even just "enlightenment" or whatever you called it, was Gods voice whispered softly in your Spirit. It would be a tragedy if you didn't recognize it as such. The miracles I have seen have almost always been the result of bad things that needed fixing, not luck. And yes, I did have a great faith that God could meet those needs, yet, they are not always met and I don't know why.

rev
7/17/12 12:51 AM
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prof
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JitsuGuy,

I can empathize.

When I was going to church as a youngster it was always drummed into me that God was there, that I could have a relationship with God, that He'd hear me and would answer if I listened etc. Mostly because my church taught a hell doctrine, I spent a lot of time worrying about hell and it was a very earnest issue for me to have some form of communication or re-assurance from God. I prayed a lot to God looking for any sign He was there.

Nothing.

And anyone who tries to tell me "Well...you didn't do it earnestly enough" or "you just weren't looking carefully enough for His presence or a reply" I can dismiss as blowing smoke. I know how earnest I was and if God's bar for showing He's there is higher than I could reach in my most desperate moments, that doesn't say anything good about such a God if He existed.

It was only later in life that I recognized the obvious answer for God's silence.

Religions are very good at indoctrinating most people.
You are encouraged to interpret your experience by the lights of whatever religion you are part of. In Christianity, you'll be encouraged to interpret your experiences as evidence of God's presence in your life. In contrast to what you take to be rational in the rest of life, you aren't to re-evaluate the claims in light of contrary or lack of evidence. You aren't supposed to re-evaluate the basic assumption that God is there in light of any failure of evidence, or in light of contrary evidence. Rather, it's "keep the faith!" Don't see evidence for God in your experience yet? Keep looking. Keep looking. Keep looking for God and if you do, surely at some point you'll have an experience you can interpret as being God letting you know He is there.

Works great for so many people. Virtually every religion works this way, hence you get people interpreting their personal experiences as "evidence" for all manner of conflicting religions. It seems some of us tire of this game at some point, though, as you seem to have, and start seeing through it.

I'd also add that it would be a piss-poor God who would let some dinky atheist like me win the day. Surely a God could make Himself known strongly enough to remove doubt and therefore give people a fair chance at deciding whether to follow Him or not. But if He remains hidden, enough to be doubted even by some who earnestly sought Him, and let bad atheist arguments win away souls...this seems to me too ridiculous to believe of a Supreme Being who actually loves us.


(BTW, I find the thread title quite uncomfortable. The way it's worded implies there is something about Christians to be hated as a group. There isn't a single Christian I know who I could hate for his/her Christianity. Talking about hating people as a group has sinister undertones - even though zeolot66 surely did not mean that).


Prof.


7/17/12 2:42 AM
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Ali
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Edited: 07/17/12 2:45 AM
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prof - 

...

And anyone who tries to tell me "Well...you didn't do it earnestly enough" or "you just weren't looking carefully enough for His presence or a reply" I can dismiss as blowing smoke. ....


Yes, right on. When writers object to claims as "unfalsifiable" this is what they're talking about.

I run into this with some of my New Age-sympathetic friends. Take the "Law of Attraction" folks: if you don't get what you want by wishful thinking, then you must have some counterintention somewhere, some "resistance", wishing not get it. The evidence? Well... you didn't get what you were wishing for.

That's some maddening chit.
7/17/12 3:49 AM
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DyingBreed
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"DyingBreed, your faith is great, because it needs to be, it's time you consider why"


Not sure exactly what you mean. How do you know my faith NEEDS to be? I know you said it's up to me to figure out why, but how do you know it needs to be? I need to know from what angle you are asking to be able to answer in a way that addresses the specifics Phone Post
7/17/12 3:57 AM
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DyingBreed
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And I agree with what rev said about you may have already heard from God, (and not just through someone) just looking back, not sure where or how.


I wish so much I could snap my fingers and give to others the encounters I've had with the living God. It bothers me that I've had these experiences while others beg and hunger for it, yet never get it. I know that God doesn't consider some better than others, or love some more than others, so why such great experiences of his presence and revelation when I am nothing special, and never claimed to be?

Some would possibly say I knew what to ask for, so I got it. Maybe for some of them, but I had no idea what to expect the first few times.


Can't wrap my head around this at all, and it bugs the crap out of me Phone Post
7/17/12 4:06 AM
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DyingBreed
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Just ask again for him to make himself real to you if you can. Don't hold anything back, be prepared to give him your all when it happens because he does want all of you. Sounds "rude" I know, and I know you've probably heard it before, but would you want to marry a girl who says "I want to know and have all of you, but can I still keep in touch with a few old boyfriends in case I ever want to go back"


I had a long response that actually had a lot more in depth concerning your post, but got lost as soon as I hit post. Didn't think I waited too long this time, but this site glitch got me again.


I just urge you not to give up. He want you to know him more than you do, and it will happen if you want it to Phone Post
7/17/12 12:50 PM
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JitsuGuy
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prof - 
JitsuGuy,

I can empathize.

When I was going to church as a youngster it was always drummed into me that God was there, that I could have a relationship with God, that He'd hear me and would answer if I listened etc. Mostly because my church taught a hell doctrine, I spent a lot of time worrying about hell and it was a very earnest issue for me to have some form of communication or re-assurance from God. I prayed a lot to God looking for any sign He was there.

Nothing.

And anyone who tries to tell me "Well...you didn't do it earnestly enough" or "you just weren't looking carefully enough for His presence or a reply" I can dismiss as blowing smoke. I know how earnest I was and if God's bar for showing He's there is higher than I could reach in my most desperate moments, that doesn't say anything good about such a God if He existed.

It was only later in life that I recognized the obvious answer for God's silence.

Religions are very good at indoctrinating most people.
You are encouraged to interpret your experience by the lights of whatever religion you are part of. In Christianity, you'll be encouraged to interpret your experiences as evidence of God's presence in your life. In contrast to what you take to be rational in the rest of life, you aren't to re-evaluate the claims in light of contrary or lack of evidence. You aren't supposed to re-evaluate the basic assumption that God is there in light of any failure of evidence, or in light of contrary evidence. Rather, it's "keep the faith!" Don't see evidence for God in your experience yet? Keep looking. Keep looking. Keep looking for God and if you do, surely at some point you'll have an experience you can interpret as being God letting you know He is there.

Works great for so many people. Virtually every religion works this way, hence you get people interpreting their personal experiences as "evidence" for all manner of conflicting religions. It seems some of us tire of this game at some point, though, as you seem to have, and start seeing through it.

I'd also add that it would be a piss-poor God who would let some dinky atheist like me win the day. Surely a God could make Himself known strongly enough to remove doubt and therefore give people a fair chance at deciding whether to follow Him or not. But if He remains hidden, enough to be doubted even by some who earnestly sought Him, and let bad atheist arguments win away souls...this seems to me too ridiculous to believe of a Supreme Being who actually loves us.


(BTW, I find the thread title quite uncomfortable. The way it's worded implies there is something about Christians to be hated as a group. There isn't a single Christian I know who I could hate for his/her Christianity. Talking about hating people as a group has sinister undertones - even though zeolot66 surely did not mean that).


Prof.





Excellently put. I got so tired of being the "bad person" because I couldn't see God and because my questions put cracks in the very foundations of mainstream philosophies of Christianity. Why am I the bad guy for seeking truth? For seeking understanding? Why am I the bad guy for wanting things to make sense? Why am I the bad guy when I discuss this stuff with other Christians and they have no answers? Why? Because it makes them feel uncomfortable. It turns their false grasp on truth into a very loose grip and it makes them uncomfortable. Belief in Christianity is very highly an emotional thing and many times their belief and reason clash when others like me come along.

So yeah, I got tired of being the bad Christian because I sought out answers and one who was not worthy of God's time.

I know exactly where you're coming from, Prof.
7/17/12 12:59 PM
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JitsuGuy
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DyingBreed - "DyingBreed, your faith is great, because it needs to be, it's time you consider why"<br><br><br>Not sure exactly what you mean. How do you know my faith NEEDS to be? I know you said it's up to me to figure out why, but how do you know it needs to be? I need to know from what angle you are asking to be able to answer in a way that addresses the specifics <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Because the things in which you believe are not harmonious with the real world. Seas being parted, staffs turning into snakes, food falling from the sky. Have any of these things been experienced outside of a religious text?

The bible says that our faith can move mountains but yet and that God will give us the desires of our heart but when our loved ones are on their death beds and we sincerely desire for their healing and nothing occurs. It causes a person to invoke even more faith because now our own religion isn't even making any sense. I can move a mountain but I can't have enough faith to see a relative recover from disease?

7/17/12 1:01 PM
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JitsuGuy
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DyingBreed - And I agree with what rev said about you may have already heard from God, (and not just through someone) just looking back, not sure where or how.<br><br><br>I wish so much I could snap my fingers and give to others the encounters I've had with the living God. It bothers me that I've had these experiences while others beg and hunger for it, yet never get it. I know that God doesn't consider some better than others, or love some more than others, so why such great experiences of his presence and revelation when I am nothing special, and never claimed to be?<br><br>Some would possibly say I knew what to ask for, so I got it. Maybe for some of them, but I had no idea what to expect the first few times. <br><br><br>Can't wrap my head around this at all, and it bugs the crap out of me <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>



You're either extra special to God, a liar or delusional.

At this point I lean towards one of the latter two.
7/17/12 1:03 PM
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DyingBreed
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Agreed ^



I still find myself throwing wrenches into people's concepts of god and not even meaning to. It pisses them off real bad when it comes from someone within their church. I am learning more and more each week that we are misteaching many of the things Jesus said, and our focus is completely off base from what really matters to god.


Nothing wrong with desire for truth. In fact, if you aren't hungry for it, I say you have died Phone Post
7/17/12 1:04 PM
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DyingBreed
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My first post was referring to your first post today...about to read what you just now posted... Phone Post
7/17/12 1:06 PM
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DyingBreed
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JitsuGuy -
DyingBreed - And I agree with what rev said about you may have already heard from God, (and not just through someone) just looking back, not sure where or how.<br><br><br>I wish so much I could snap my fingers and give to others the encounters I've had with the living God. It bothers me that I've had these experiences while others beg and hunger for it, yet never get it. I know that God doesn't consider some better than others, or love some more than others, so why such great experiences of his presence and revelation when I am nothing special, and never claimed to be?<br><br>Some would possibly say I knew what to ask for, so I got it. Maybe for some of them, but I had no idea what to expect the first few times. <br><br><br>Can't wrap my head around this at all, and it bugs the crap out of me <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>



You're either extra special to God, a liar or delusional.

At this point I lean towards one of the latter two.
I am none of these, and shouldn't have made the posts in the first place... Phone Post

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