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7/5/12 7:28 PM
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reverend john
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don't really like this discussion, nor the point of it on this thread. It isn't like you haven't said the same thing a million times before, and I have the same answers. I will let you know if I have changed any of my ideas

rev
7/5/12 7:42 PM
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prof
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Well I may be having amnesia, but I don't recall you having told me many times before that I'm attacking, taking advantage of the vulnerable, as if my posts weren't sincere or thoughtful, and were somehow simply cynical ploys at the expense of someone else.

That's actually not like you, rev. And I was defending my integrity which you have put in question.

Prof.
7/5/12 9:26 PM
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reverend john
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I very specifically said "I feel like". I admitted from the get go it was subjective. And you changed subject in your last post and I find the discussion pointless

Rev Phone Post
7/6/12 7:58 AM
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Ridgeback
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prof - 
Well I may be having amnesia, but I don't recall you having told me many times before that I'm attacking, taking advantage of the vulnerable, as if my posts weren't sincere or thoughtful, and were somehow simply cynical ploys at the expense of someone else.

That's actually not like you, rev. And I was defending my integrity which you have put in question.

Prof.

 You aren't poaching.  You are evangelizing for your religion.  
7/6/12 1:08 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Edited: 07/06/12 1:08 PM
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Too much to respond to... But an interesting idea that I've recently concluded was inspired when someone told me that I believe in what I want to. It caused me to take pause and really consider the truth of such an idea... Do I really want to believe there is no God? Well, I think that I've stated rather clearly here and to others IRL that I do want to believe. So, is it really true that we believe in what we want to believe in? Nope. It's not true... I'd like to believe in a car that gets 150 miles per gallon but guess what. Everything I know due to this life's experiences regarding cars, keeps me from that belief.

It's no different than viewing this life's experiences, not seeing some supernatural power at work, but rather, natural law and order at work, that keeps me from my belief.

So, no, it's not always true that we believe in what we want to believe in. There's this little thing called "reality" that significantly contributes one's ability to believe.

So for those out there who want to accuse me of not wanting to believe... Go fuck yourselves and then try observing the world around you in which you live and breathe. Then try believing in unicorns. Oh wait, you don't believe in unicorns because you don't want to, right? Or is it because there's no such thing as unicorns?

Hopefully, you see the point...


And no this isn't directed towards anyone in this thread... It's just my thoughts on the matter at the moment... Yes, I know, it's random. =)

7/6/12 1:10 PM
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reverend john
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but I have seen "intervention" very clear, concise and powerful intervention.

rev
7/6/12 2:00 PM
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JitsuGuy
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reverend john - but I have seen "intervention" very clear, concise and powerful intervention.

rev


You've seen people change. You didn't see them have a sit down with a supernatural being and come away from that enlightened and changed. You simply saw people change. People do it all the time. Some attribute it to getting rid of caffeine others attirtube it to Yoga, then there are those who attribute it to God.

The mind has the capacity to do remarkable things. Such as, a reasonable person believing in something that defies reason.
7/6/12 2:31 PM
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prof
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Ridgeback -
You aren't poaching. You are evangelizing for your religion.


That move is always fascinating; to see how a religious person invokes "religion" (let alone evangelism) with a pejorative connotation...but only when applied against others such as an atheist.

It's not only ironic, it's lazy - little better than "I know you are but what am I?" - a game with words instead of argument.

"Atheism" isn't a religion as you should well know - it's a stance on a particular question. It's one of many conclusions that derive from an underlying philosophy, particularly an underlying epistemology (in my case - and an epistemology that JitsuGuy already seemed to have adopted himself!).


Nothing about "I don't believe in God" tells me what rituals to do, or what ancient text I should orient my life around, or which buildings I ought to build to congregate with others, or which person, thing or object to give "worship," or how I ought to live my life, treat others...etc.

It's just a cheap trick, thinking by slapping the same label on someone else's endevour you've made it equivalent to your own. If you told someone people I was very religious and they then found out I am an atheist most would look at you feeling you've misled them. Unless you start equating "religious" to anything someone advocates, or to any time someone speaks from a philosophical position. But to do apply the term "religion" so sloppily, given how it is normally understood, simply trades away conceptual clarity and good communication for a cheap trick.

It's as bad as that gawd-awful "I don't have enough FAITH to be an atheist" trotted out by apologists.

I don't know why you need to fall back on this, rather than rely on good arguments.

Prof.
7/6/12 3:02 PM
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reverend john
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JitsuGuy - 
reverend john - but I have seen "intervention" very clear, concise and powerful intervention.

rev


You've seen people change. You didn't see them have a sit down with a supernatural being and come away from that enlightened and changed. You simply saw people change. People do it all the time. Some attribute it to getting rid of caffeine others attirtube it to Yoga, then there are those who attribute it to God.

The mind has the capacity to do remarkable things. Such as, a reasonable person believing in something that defies reason.



no brother, I am talking about a lot more than that, I am talking about really seeing things

rev
7/6/12 3:47 PM
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JitsuGuy
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reverend john - 
JitsuGuy - 
reverend john - but I have seen "intervention" very clear, concise and powerful intervention.

rev


You've seen people change. You didn't see them have a sit down with a supernatural being and come away from that enlightened and changed. You simply saw people change. People do it all the time. Some attribute it to getting rid of caffeine others attirtube it to Yoga, then there are those who attribute it to God.

The mind has the capacity to do remarkable things. Such as, a reasonable person believing in something that defies reason.



no brother, I am talking about a lot more than that, I am talking about really seeing things

rev


I longed for an experience like that... But I guess I'm not worthy enough...

So forgive me God, for not being worth a life-changing display of yourself to one you've created. I know, I'm a failure and am worth so little to you. And even though your word says you do not show favoritism (Romans 2:11), it's clear, that you do.

How could I ever win your favor?

Truthfully though, I hope there are those out there who really have experienced something they and others cannot explain... I hope there are those in which the creator has had discourse with.
7/6/12 4:22 PM
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reverend john
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I don't think it has anything to do with favoritism, just being in the right place and open to it

rev
7/6/12 8:47 PM
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Ridgeback
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prof - 
Ridgeback -
You aren't poaching. You are evangelizing for your religion.


That move is always fascinating; to see how a religious person invokes "religion" (let alone evangelism) with a pejorative connotation...but only when applied against others such as an atheist.

It's not only ironic, it's lazy - little better than "I know you are but what am I?" - a game with words instead of argument.

"Atheism" isn't a religion as you should well know - it's a stance on a particular question. It's one of many conclusions that derive from an underlying philosophy, particularly an underlying epistemology (in my case - and an epistemology that JitsuGuy already seemed to have adopted himself!).


Nothing about "I don't believe in God" tells me what rituals to do, or what ancient text I should orient my life around, or which buildings I ought to build to congregate with others, or which person, thing or object to give "worship," or how I ought to live my life, treat others...etc.

It's just a cheap trick, thinking by slapping the same label on someone else's endevour you've made it equivalent to your own. If you told someone people I was very religious and they then found out I am an atheist most would look at you feeling you've misled them. Unless you start equating "religious" to anything someone advocates, or to any time someone speaks from a philosophical position. But to do apply the term "religion" so sloppily, given how it is normally understood, simply trades away conceptual clarity and good communication for a cheap trick.

It's as bad as that gawd-awful "I don't have enough FAITH to be an atheist" trotted out by apologists.

I don't know why you need to fall back on this, rather than rely on good arguments.

Prof.

 Actually I use the term "religion" in a fairly neutral way.  I don't think it is inherently good or bad, but I do think it is as steeped in human nature as the use of signs to communicate, art, music, and the desire to figure out the world.  

I didn't make any cheap tricks.  You are confusing me with the people who claim that atheism is a religion.  I make no such claim.  What I do point out is that all atheists are religious animals and live their lives (consciously or unconsciously) according to a theory of reality and that is a good working definition of what religion is.  Because all theories assign the qualities of self-existence and non-dependence to at least one thing, and this assignment is of necessity a metaphysical assumption, there is no practical difference between the grounds for the theory of reality by which an atheist lives his life and the various theories of reality other religious people of varying degree of theistic belief do.

You may believe that you have achieved a kind of religious neutrality but I just don't buy it.  If you say you have no religion then I have no religion either.  We both live according to a theory of reality and you are evangelizing for yours on this thread. 


 
7/6/12 8:50 PM
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Ridgeback
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 And Prof.  I don't know why you make knee jerk assumptions when I wrote nothing of the sort.  You do have a tendency to leap in when people claim they are losing their faith.  Now why would you do that unless you are a sheap stealer and opportunist?  
7/6/12 8:58 PM
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Ali
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Yes, well... when not-religion is religion, and when one can "evangelize" for not-religion, then polemic is the point and truth irrelevant. At least that much is consistent.
7/7/12 1:46 AM
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Ridgeback
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Ali - Yes, well... when not-religion is religion, and when one can "evangelize" for not-religion, then polemic is the point and truth irrelevant. At least that much is consistent.

 I've pointed out how all humans are religious.  Why not deal with those arguments instead of getting caught up in definitions.  If you can come up with a coherent definition for "religion" that takes into account the myriad forms it takes in human history but which clearly excludes the small minority of people who claim to not have it then I am happy to read your posts.  Honestly I think this argument totally throws atheists for a loop because they had actually come to believe that what they believe in isn't founded on the same shaky ground of first principles, but rather is somehow verified in laboratories and through equations and via tactile confirmation.  Nonsense.  We are all in the same boat.  We construct theories of reality and live by them.  The more valid theories hold up in our experiences and others fall by the wayside.  I have always pointed out that I think both theism and atheism achieve rational warrant in the philosophical sense.  It is only the atheists who claim to be resident aliens on the planet, somehow transcending their evolutionary past to shake off the burden of religion.  
7/8/12 6:15 PM
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prof
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Ridgeback -What I do point out is that all atheists are religious animals and live their lives (consciously or unconsciously) according to a theory of reality and that is a good working definition of what religion is.


You mean your own definition. Your use of the term would end up calling me "religious" when most of the world would point to me, an atheist, as an example of someone NOT religious. Once you declare an atheist "religious" then EVERYONE is religious and it contradicts both it's normal use and waters it down to uselessness. You can go on all you want about how you use the term: I can use the term "cat" when pointing at an airplane. What I would share with you if I did that is the fact I've given no one else good reasons to use the term as I'm using it. Same with your idiosyncratic use of "religious." As Ali sees quite well: it's just an attempt at point-scoring.

Ridgeback -"Because all theories assign the qualities of self-existence and non-dependence to at least one thing, and this assignment is of necessity a metaphysical assumption, there is no practical difference between the grounds for the theory of reality by which an atheist lives his life and the various theories of reality other religious people of varying degree of theistic belief do."


What does that mean? You need to explain more clearly what this metaphysical assumption is.
A metaphysical assumption does not equate to religion.


Ridgeback - If you can come up with a coherent definition for "religion" that takes into account the myriad forms it takes in human history but which clearly excludes the small minority of people who claim to not have it then I am happy to read your posts.


Collins Dictionary: Religion:

noun
1. belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny
2. any formal or institutionalized expression of such belief ? “the Christian religion”
3. the attitude and feeling of one who believes in a transcendent controlling power or powers
4. (mainly Roman Catholic Church) the way of life determined by the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience entered upon by monks, friars, and nuns ? “to enter religion”
5. something of overwhelming importance to a person ? “football is his religion”
6. (archaic)
1. the practice of sacred ritual observances
2. sacred rites and ceremonies

None of those apply to me. If you feel the cheap impulse to point to #5 first note how ridiculous it would be for you to call someone "religious" because he likes football, as if it were
synonymous with the way you use "religious' to indicate a Christian, Muslim, Mormon, Hindu etc. #5 takes it's meaning from the fervour of ACTUAL religions simply to describe the intensity and devotion someone may feel for watching football, or gardening or whatever. It's a comparison of intensity; not a claim football is the SAME THING as being a Christian or Muslim.

Ridgeback - Honestly I think this argument totally throws atheists for a loop because they had actually come to believe that what they believe in isn't founded on the same shaky ground of first principles, but rather is somehow verified in laboratories and through equations and via tactile confirmation.  


Yet here I am, an atheist who refutes your claim. I think we make certain assumptions that, being axiomatic, are not themselves "proven" (though justified, which is different).
I have many times written about some first principle assumptions that I argue you and I share…and which actually show the inferences many religious people make from there on are unjustified. (Example assumptions concern "identity" and "things have natures.") These are not confirmed through laboratories etc. So what do you do when someone calls your bluff?

Ridgeback -
Nonsense.  We are all in the same boat.  We construct theories of reality and live by them.


If that is what YOU mean by "religious" then even if we accepted that use it adds nothing to your side of the ledger and scores no "gotcha" whatsoever. You use the term "religious" as if it's some "gotcha" for atheists, as if it pulls a haughty atheist down from his pedestal to say "see…you are in no better position than I am." But your use of the term simply doesn't buy this result. Because if it simply means "theory of reality" we still can debate which theory of reality makes more sense, which is most justified. All the debate of any real substance is ahead of you.

Your concentration on tossing around the word "religious" just seems an escape from the real issues.

Prof.
7/8/12 6:32 PM
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prof
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As to this...

Ridgeback -  And Prof.  I don't know why you make knee jerk assumptions when I wrote nothing of the sort.  You do have a tendency to leap in when people claim they are losing their faith.  Now why would you do that unless you are a sheap stealer and opportunist?  


Ridgeback, really, think about the cherry picking you've just engaged in.

I have a "tendency" to jump in on discussions about RELIGION and associated philosophical discussions. I have participated in countless different discussions about theology, creationism, theodicy, evolution, you name it. You may as well be pointing to a gumball machine saying "It has a tendency to dispense blue gumballs."

Yeah..if you ignore all the other colors spilling out on regular occasions.

As to me "poaching" someone like Jitsuguy, give me a break.
This is the guy who just wrote things like:

JitsuGuy -"So for those out there who want to accuse me of not wanting to believe... Go fuck yourselves and then try observing the world around you in which you live and breathe. Then try believing in unicorns. Oh wait, you don't believe in unicorns because you don't want to, right? Or is it because there's no such thing as unicorns?

Hopefully, you see the point..."


Yeah, that's really someone teetering - he really needed me to sneak up and hoodwink him into seeing the problems with faith (eye-roll).

Prof.


7/8/12 11:38 PM
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RoidsGracie
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Ali - Yes, well... when not-religion is religion, and when one can "evangelize" for not-religion, then polemic is the point and truth irrelevant. At least that much is consistent.


People evangelize for "non religion" do they not?
7/9/12 3:19 AM
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Ali
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When not-religion is religion, sure. I guess. Meanwhile, if you look up "evangelize" in a dictionary (or on, say, Merriam-Webster.com), you can feel free to be held to a literal definition or not.

Of course words are used in ways that don't always comport with the dictionary definitions -- all well and good. But let's be clear where polemic is the point, then.
7/12/12 1:11 PM
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JitsuGuy
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reverend john - I don't think it has anything to do with favoritism, just being in the right place and open to it

rev


So, then it's luck. Even better.
9/9/12 8:10 PM
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Cappytime
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JitsuGuy - I don't see God. I see the real world, with laws and order that doesn't require a super-natural force to exist.

I see inustice rule, I see corruption rule, I see evil rule. It kind of undoes the existence of an "all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving" creator.

I guess I got to the point in my life where faith in the unobservable seemed juvinile.
In Exodus, the Isrealites saw the power of God with their own eyes. They saw God smite Egypt, they saw Mana from heaven and they saw the Red Sea parted. When Moses stayed on the mountain too long they made a golden calf because they had no faith. How are we supposed to have faith when we see none of this? Phone Post
9/11/12 2:21 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Ridgeback -  And Prof.  I don't know why you make knee jerk assumptions when I wrote nothing of the sort.  You do have a tendency to leap in when people claim they are losing their faith.  Now why would you do that unless you are a sheap stealer and opportunist?  

Because freeing ones self from the shackles of organized religion are liberating.

Religion is a control-mechanism used to enslave others minds, finances, time and energy for the profit of those at the top. It's essentially a pyramid scheme.

Sometimes I just think back on all that money, all that time, all those emotions I wasted on something as real as Mary Poppins and I feel cheated. All of those things were mine and I was guilt-tripped into giving them away. I even let the fairy tale belittle me and scare me by use of eternal physical torture.

It's a crime. That's what religion is. Oh sure there's the community which I believe is the glue that keeps people neglecting their doubts. But that community is built on lies and outright manipulations.

I'm glad I'm free of it and I'm glad there are people like Prof out there contributing to freeing the minds of those who don't belong in those cults.
9/11/12 2:28 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Cappytime - 
JitsuGuy - I don't see God. I see the real world, with laws and order that doesn't require a super-natural force to exist.

I see inustice rule, I see corruption rule, I see evil rule. It kind of undoes the existence of an "all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving" creator.

I guess I got to the point in my life where faith in the unobservable seemed juvinile.
In Exodus, the Isrealites saw the power of God with their own eyes. They saw God smite Egypt, they saw Mana from heaven and they saw the Red Sea parted. When Moses stayed on the mountain too long they made a golden calf because they had no faith. How are we supposed to have faith when we see none of this? Phone Post

The bible proves nothing... And faith or aka "gullibility" isn't such a great measuring stick to determine the worth of an individual.

"Hey, this guy is such a giver of himself and his resources and respected among his community but he doesn't believe in the almighty Spaghetti god!!!! Let's torture his ass!!!! Yeah!!!!!!!"

You see how stupid that is? Because of what a person believes or doesn't believe, religion determines their worth - and not based on who they are, but because of an idea or a lack of an idea within their head.... Hey, if God can torture a person for the way they believe it certainly gives license to those in the Church to treat unbelievers as lesser beings...

Don't you see how divisive that is? Don't you see how dangerous that is?



9/11/12 5:17 PM
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Cappytime
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JitsuGuy -
Cappytime - 
JitsuGuy - I don't see God. I see the real world, with laws and order that doesn't require a super-natural force to exist.

I see inustice rule, I see corruption rule, I see evil rule. It kind of undoes the existence of an "all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving" creator.

I guess I got to the point in my life where faith in the unobservable seemed juvinile.
In Exodus, the Isrealites saw the power of God with their own eyes. They saw God smite Egypt, they saw Mana from heaven and they saw the Red Sea parted. When Moses stayed on the mountain too long they made a golden calf because they had no faith. How are we supposed to have faith when we see none of this? Phone Post

The bible proves nothing... And faith or aka "gullibility" isn't such a great measuring stick to determine the worth of an individual.

"Hey, this guy is such a giver of himself and his resources and respected among his community but he doesn't believe in the almighty Spaghetti god!!!! Let's torture his ass!!!! Yeah!!!!!!!"

You see how stupid that is? Because of what a person believes or doesn't believe, religion determines their worth - and not based on who they are, but because of an idea or a lack of an idea within their head.... Hey, if God can torture a person for the way they believe it certainly gives license to those in the Church to treat unbelievers as lesser beings...

Don't you see how divisive that is? Don't you see how dangerous that is?



You're preaching to the choir. We are on the same side here. Phone Post
9/12/12 12:55 AM
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Grakman
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So all those hospitals, charities, schools, wells, farms, etc built by religious people to help the poor somehow empower people at the top?

You know that's not true. Phone Post

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