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7/2/12 2:50 PM
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Ridgeback
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 This upcoming documentary should generate a lot of interesting discussion if it gets wide enough distribution.

http://www.hellboundthemovie.com/the-crew/ 
7/2/12 3:16 PM
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reverend john
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Wonder if they will take a good hard look at the orthodox view, its one of the most compelling to my mind.

rev
7/2/12 10:54 PM
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Grakman
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They have a list of the people documented in the movie. This Orthodox priest was first on the list:

http://new-ostrog.org/

Looks pretty interesting.
7/2/12 11:35 PM
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Ali
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They also have guys from bands. Death metal, or satanic metal, or black metal, or whatever the subgenre is. I suppose that'll give some contrast -- but I'm not expecting much insight from a guy in Deicide, or Morbid Angel.

Maybe I'll be surprised. I just wonder, if you want to go "dark side", why you'd have musicians. Why not find somebody as near-equivalent as you can find to, say, an Orthodox Priest from some dark or "left hand path" tradition?

I wonder what the filmmakers were thinking. (Whether it's just that they do like that music, or think those bandmembers are more representative spokespeople, or just have a lot of influence on some popular conceptions of hellbound-ness? Or soemthing else).

It promises to be an interesting project, one way or another.
7/3/12 9:48 AM
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Lahi
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explodin - I'll be purchasing. I hope it's on iTunes. <

7/3/12 1:08 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Ali - They also have guys from bands. Death metal, or satanic metal, or black metal, or whatever the subgenre is. I suppose that'll give some contrast -- but I'm not expecting much insight from a guy in Deicide, or Morbid Angel.

Maybe I'll be surprised. I just wonder, if you want to go "dark side", why you'd have musicians. Why not find somebody as near-equivalent as you can find to, say, an Orthodox Priest from some dark or "left hand path" tradition?

I wonder what the filmmakers were thinking. (Whether it's just that they do like that music, or think those bandmembers are more representative spokespeople, or just have a lot of influence on some popular conceptions of hellbound-ness? Or soemthing else).

It promises to be an interesting project, one way or another.



What insight is there to be gleaned? That oh, an "all loving" god did create a hell but hardly ever established its existence based on biblical texts... It was all the sudden like, "you're going to hell" but never explained what "hell" was.

Add to that, that the idea of hell, from the bible is derived from very sketchy word translations and upon these translations the entire premise of "hell" is built. Which goes back to why God never clearly spoke of such a place... Probably because it doesn't exist.

Sure, it'll be interesting to see what the minds of men in different places have to say about this place of myth... But to me, if they believe in it... They've never engaged their minds critically on the matter and are merely passing along faulty data they've been told. They never asked enough questions and thus haven't earned my respect on the matter. They're stupid, ignorant, dumb and/or evil.

For me, such a film would fall in the "comedy" catagory.
7/3/12 8:51 PM
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Ali
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Edited: 07/03/12 8:56 PM
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JitsuGuy - 

What insight is there to be gleaned?


I love this question, really. To me, there's some insight about how people formulate their notions of a good life, a meaningful life. I personally don't think there's any insight to be gleaned about an after-life an sich, but that as a metaphor you can understand the notion of an afterlife to get at what some very dedicated and smart folks have thought about making sense of this life, of ethical behavior, of meaningful behavior. I'm an infidel as far as the thing-itself, admittedly. But... I would guess that this sort of thing is thought-through fairly well by the priests who are interviewed (orthodox or otherwise). That's not to say their understanding need be convincing to me about anything literal, or "hell as a question of physics".

It is conceivable that there are some very well-reasoned, well-educated, anthropologically savvy death-metal singers. I just doubt it. It looks to me like the filmmakers talked to some of the "elite" as far as thinking the question of hell and hellbound-ness through, from the one side. But then they talked to a couple of guys who are basically trying to get a feeling of foreboding or fear across through the medium of speed strumming and cookie-monster vocals. I'm not hopeful


JitsuGuy - That oh, an "all loving" god did create a hell but hardly ever established its existence based on biblical texts... It was all the sudden like, "you're going to hell" but never explained what "hell" was.


I'm not expecting any insight into any of that, no. I'm with you. That's a hopeless sort of thing to want from a movie all right.

JitsuGuy - Add to that, that the idea of hell, from the bible is derived from very sketchy word translations and upon these translations the entire premise of "hell" is built. Which goes back to why God never clearly spoke of such a place... Probably because it doesn't exist.


Well, my guess is that the "speaker" doesn't exist, either. And I'm fairly certain the "place" doesn't exist -- I'd guess the more mystically inclined subjects of interviews will tell you there's not a "place" in the sense the word is usually used, either.

JitsuGuy - Sure, it'll be interesting to see what the minds of men in different places have to say about this place of myth...


Yes, yes... very interesting. Myths sometimes tell us things about how people make meaning, what sorts of values people have, what sorts of priorities, what sorts of practices might lead to an escape from suffering.... might do lots of other things (which I won't go on elaborating because how someone buys into a particular myth can lead to one direction or another, and these posts are necessarily too short to capture all that variety).

JitsuGuy -But to me, if they believe in it... They've never engaged their minds critically on the matter and are merely passing along faulty data they've been told.


Well, yeah... if they "beleive" in the sense of physics, like I believe in Cleveland, though I've never been there. Sure, I'm with you, if that's how people believe. (It's often that lame, too, yes... but certainly not always).

JitsuGuy - They never asked enough questions and thus haven't earned my respect on the matter. They're stupid, ignorant, dumb and/or evil.


Sure, some of them. And whether stupid/ignorant/dumb.... or smart but underbaked... or "evil" indeed, are interesting questions to me. I'd rather hear from a Yezidi cleric, or a Thelemite Bishop, or some follower of Anton LaVey's "Church of Satan" or an initiate of the Werewolf Order within the Temple of Set than..... a couple of dudes who happen to sing for metal bands that like spooky imagery, or are angry about their upbringing.

Mind you, I haven't heard those guys speak, so maybe I'm dismissing them. Maybe musicians are the best people to talk to about certain branches of religion, or metaphysics, or the cultural impact of those things. I'm just highly skeptical of that. And wonder why, if they really are the best ones, the filmmakers aren't talking to Amy Grant or Jars of Clay, on the other side. Are only [death-, black-, Satanic-, etc.- ] metal musicians actually thoughtful? I wonder what the filmmakers were thinking in this regard.


JitsuGuy - For me, such a film would fall in the "comedy" catagory.


Well, there's that possibility. I don't know enough about it to know that. I certainly have spent entirely too much time watching televangelists for humorous purposes.... sometimes that chit is funny, sometimes it's *not*. I feel the same way about South Park (with different ratios of funny- bits : not-funny bits). Just looking at the website, I'll bet this film will fall down as a comedy. But I don't know. And it may fall down by other criteria as well. I hold out more hope for its interest than you, I suppose.
7/3/12 9:36 PM
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reverend john
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well some of the black metal guys are actually very bright.

rev
7/3/12 9:52 PM
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Ali
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Edited: 07/03/12 9:58 PM
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reverend john - well some of the black metal guys are actually very bright.

rev


I don't doubt that at all. My point isn't to say they're not; just that they're positioned on one side of binary opposition.... and I do wonder why. Why not bright musicians on the other side, too? It might because the black metal guys really are the brightest on offer from their point of view. Or just that they have more influence than anyone else coming from a certain point of view. (This would suprise me, honestly, but... not too much!) It might be because one or other of the filmmakers are fans. That would be a bad reason, I would think, though maybe work out well if the guy has something particularly interesting to say.

So I'm wondering. "We talk to an Orthodox priest and a dude from Deicide". That seems strange to me, and not like the most fruitful approach. Even if both guys are super bright. Even if the guy from Deicide is Mensa, or has a minor in Fire Worship cults from UCSB.

Of course I'm all for it if they tried talking to Left Hand Path clergy who were edited out for being less-than-bright (or interesting) in the actual filming!

(And I'm sorry I don't know the sub-genres.... I don't know if Deicide or Morbid Angel is "black metal" ? I think of black metal as a Norway thing, mostly -- not sure if the Florida dudes are a different genre or what. I'm only passingly familiar with the music).
7/3/12 10:01 PM
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Ali
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BTW, I remember in "Religulous" Bill Maher talked to some fundie-Muslim-apologist rapper guy. (Don't remember the name). That dude was, potentially, way smarter and more interesting than the Muslim cleric he spoke to in the same section. (Maher of course stepped all over these guys' lines, so it didn't work out anyway). Of course that can happen!
7/3/12 10:02 PM
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reverend john
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the thing is if you want to talk about the polar opposite of Christian fundamentalism it isn't LaVeyan satanism, it would be the very full on guys like Deicide.

rev
7/3/12 10:08 PM
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Ali
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Edited: 07/03/12 10:11 PM
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Of course I understand that the LaVeyan version makes no room for the supernatural. I just threw that out there as one representative of what people culturally oppose to Christian. They do talk of "hell" and what it means, even if they don't think of it at all as having supernatural import.

But I threw that out as one among many... I know a Thelemite Bishop fairly well; I think he'd be an interesting counterpoint on the subject of hell or hellboundness.

But maybe "guys like" Deicide really *are* the cream of the crop in terms of intellect or knowledge of whatever it is that's the polar opposite of Christian Fundamentalism. Please understand, I'm not dissing them. How come Christian musicians aren't as good representatives of the ideas about hell within their tradition? Are black metal guys just, across the board, smarter?

They could talk to Stephen Eldred Flowers. Or hell, I dunno.... Nick Schreck (or whomever the latest is).

Anway... Deicide might really be the best people to interview. And Christian musicians might just be dumber, or something. It's a very strange opposition to set up (if that indeed is what's being done -- it looks that way from the movie's page).
7/3/12 10:18 PM
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reverend john
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I get your point, I think it is more dramatic though being that Christianity is the traditional religion of America

rev
7/3/12 10:24 PM
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Ali
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Edited: 07/03/12 10:24 PM
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Looking up Deicide on Wikipedia (where they are classified as "Death Metal", not that this means anything particularly clear to me....)
It seems pretty durn "LaVey"-like. Without all the theater and self-aggrandizement perhaps. (OK OK... that's different enough...)

Drummer Asheim said, "The whole point of Satanic music is to blaspheme against the Church", "I don't believe in or worship a devil. Life is short enough without having to waste it doing this whole organised praying, hoping, wishing-type thing on some superior being".[18]e

Y'know? Pretty simplistic LaVey-approved sort agit-prop.
7/3/12 10:26 PM
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reverend john
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I think the singer was much more philisophical, but I could be wrong. I went to their concert once to stand against their evil. I stood in the balcony and prayed the whole evening.

rev
7/3/12 10:35 PM
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Ali
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Edited: 07/03/12 10:39 PM
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Did you hate every second of it?

I remember maybe early 90s reading about this stuff in music mags. The dude from Morbid Angel was actually drinking blood with his hot-chick metal/goth girlfriend, all that. Or I should say, the article reported such. I don't know what they were actually doing. Seemed like a good way to get sick. Really, my reaction was that it seemed juvenile, and I didn't think much else -- maybe I also thought the girl was pretty and would have been more so without the blood dripping down her chin.

But the article talked about the math-rock aspects, certain kinds of virtuosity, and just how really *heavy* the music was. Back then I was interested in *really heavy*. So I checked out some records in a used-cd shop in Nashville, on headphones. I thought it was boring; had a hard time making out the lyrics -- it might've been my first exposure to what got called in the rock-crit press "cookie monster vocals". Which I can't stand. I read the lyrics to a few songs. Yup, designed-to-shock anti-God stuff. Like most rock lyrics, a moderately clever high-schooler could have written them. So... it still seemed juvenile. I didn't want to listen any more.

Praying in the balcony -- was that a relatively private experience? This is interesting. Did you talk to "fans"? Were you obvious to anyone?
7/3/12 11:00 PM
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reverend john
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I hated it. I am a punk rocker from 78 I hate metal of any kind.

I went with another guy from my church. I don't know if you will believe this but we had people all over the country praying for our safety and specifically that we would be concealed. I felt that we were there to stand against evil spirits and that we did that. There were two people that I "knew" we're looking for us, it was like they felt our presence. They did nothing but scan the crowd the whole time

When we walked out I was face to face with one of them and I kind of willed myself to be seen. I saw a look of recognition come over his face and then he became afraid maybe just cause of my size

Rev Phone Post
7/3/12 11:03 PM
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Ridgeback
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I remember the Rev talking about praying at that concert but didn't realize that was the same band.  That should make it more interesting then. 

The Archbishop from Canada is friends with the guys who made the documentary (although I don't think they are Orthodox) and does a pretty good job of explaining the Eastern Orthodox view of hell in his youtube videos at least.  I don't think it is an easy view, but it at least addresses the question of how a loving and forgiving God could also punish people in hell forever.  Frankie Schaeffer is in it as well. He is the son of the Evangelist Francis Schaeffer (who was as big as Billy Graham in some circles) and was also Orthodox at one time at least although it is hard to say what he is these days.  

I find it interesting that they got the Phelps and Marc Driscoll and Peter Kreeft all in the same film though.  Should show the wide variance of views on hell that actually exist under the banner of Christianity.  Maybe they could end the film by having Deicide set Fred Phelp's daughter on fire (that was wrong).  
7/3/12 11:06 PM
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Ali
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Of course I believe you had peole all over the country praying for your safety and specifically that you would be concealed.
(Thanks a million for answering so clearly -- I was wondering if you wanted to be seen to open up a dialogue, or your work was meant to be on an altogether different level).
I'd probably be afraid of you because of your size if you were in my grille "willing yourself to be seen", too, btw! (j/k, I understand the confrontation was quite different from just some random one).
7/3/12 11:35 PM
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reverend john
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No I was about ten feet away I felt the power of Gods Spirit that night I think he may have felt that strength and confidence. Funny how long I have been around the forums as that would have been 14 or 15 years ago

Rev Phone Post
7/3/12 11:38 PM
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Ali
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Times don't change, they fly. I think I was first around the forums in 1997 (submissionfighting.com), too. Arguing about TCMA and MMA and training videos. On VHS. And the OG was first conceived, and then was monadic.

Old folks.
7/22/12 3:32 PM
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Lahi
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Interesting quote from Frank Shaeffer, after seeing a preview of the movie:

'...I watched the sneak preview of the movie "Hellbound" that will be released this fall. It happens that I'm one of the people interviewed in the movie but that's not why I say it is one of the best films I've ever seen. We watched it at 11 PM and talked until 2 AM. People were just stunned.

"Hellbound" is my answer to the question I get so often, "But how can we change minds?" It's asked by people who hear me talk about my journey from religious right leader to progressive Christian that the New York Times described as perceived by members of the religious right as treasonous. People know that you're either a "Fox News" watcher or an "MSNBC" watcher and the twain shall never meet. "Hellbound" confronts the great national ideological divide over religion (and thus politics too) as never before. And I'm betting that 5 years from now you'll meet former evangelicals and other former fundamentalist religious folks who trace their departure from the religious right to seeing this movie. I've never seen the argument made better against the angry retributive aspects of far right "religion."'


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