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HolyGround >> OK Josh, lets skype

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7/10/12 10:08 AM
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reverend john
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lets figure out a time, we can allow whomever to watch it, not sure if I can but I might be able to put it up on justin.tv as well

Couple of things I would like to know however, what do you want to talk about, and what will be the rules. I am not interested in getting yelled at by you for an hour. Nor do I want to take advantage of a situation either.

I will insist however that if we do this you will stop with your insults, no snake, no wolf in sheeps clothing none of that. If what you are saying is true, then it will speak for itself. I of course will make the same commitment to not insult you.

rev
7/12/12 8:51 AM
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reverend john
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I just spoke to a friend, and will have it figured out so that it will be aired live on Justin.tv and will be saved there, so give me some dates

rev
7/12/12 1:58 PM
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reverend john
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?
7/15/12 11:49 PM
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PastorJosh
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I'm here. And I will agree to discuss one thing and one thing only. I'll not debate homosexual Christianity, I'll not debate alternative, atheistic worship, I'll not debate porn, I'll not debate those millions of subjects you write about. I agree to discuss the gospel. Phone Post
7/15/12 11:54 PM
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PastorJosh
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I have 0.0 interest in "insulting you", but if you cannot take harsh criticism of your writing and positions, then I caution you not to log on. I'll not pull punches, I'll not stroke your ego (or anyone else's). This is between you and I. And people are more than welcome to listen but you and I will have a discussion. A DISCUSSION, not an argument. To that I fully and wonderfully agree. I'll not raise my voice to you or call you one single name. I've been portrayed by so many people as a self-righteous person, "everything that's wrong with Christianity" and much, much more. Please understand that I care nothing of my own defense, I care nothing about my own reputation and I care nothing about people's opinion on this subject and I promise you that this conversation will be as cordial as I can be. But if we are talking the gospel, I'll not remain silent. Phone Post
7/16/12 12:02 AM
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reverend john
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I don't mind criticism of my position, but what I will not accept is you calling names like you have already a number of times.

I do not expect you to remain silent, nor even cordial (though politeness would be wonderful), but I do expect that if you are really sincere then you will actually listen to what I say before condemning it.

rev
7/16/12 12:13 AM
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PastorJosh
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I have every intention of letting you speak first. The way I see it, you share the gospel with me, I'll sit and listen without saying a single word. Then, you extend the same courtesy and let me share the gospel with you. That will clear up 99% of where we stand on the secondary and tertiary issues. Phone Post
7/16/12 12:27 AM
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reverend john
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Well if I am to speak first then please put forth a question or statement from which I can begin. When a pastor says, share the gospel with me, I assume that you have a certain set of beliefs already.

rev
7/16/12 12:44 AM
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PastorJosh
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You are to share the gospel with me as if I've never heard the gospel before. That's as simple as I can make it. I have no questions for you whatsoever. Phone Post
7/16/12 8:50 AM
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reverend john
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I don't agree to that

rev
7/16/12 9:35 AM
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Rocky Dennis
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You don't agree to it?  Why not?  It really couldn't be a more simple, and yet utterly important question:

What is the gospel of Jesus Christ?  

As if you are approaching a stranger and they have never heard the gospel before.


7/16/12 11:14 AM
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reverend john
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Edited: 07/16/12 11:15 AM
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Because I dont have a standard tact that I recite. And the truth is, I try not to talk as much as act. I don't believe in altar call gospel. I invite people to come and see. Which is what Jesus did. I try and invite people to meet Jesus, not understand a certain set of truths. This is the problem with this "concept"

The modern Christian evangelical approach is to try and convince people in some way these truths. You are a sinner, you are born a sinner and you will always be a sinner. The fact that you are a sinner, separates you from God. This separation makes your ability to commune with and follow God impossible, and in fact there is a deadness to your spirituality. Jesus, who is God, and was with God before the foundation of the world comes to the earth in the form of a man and lives a sinless life, and then dies on the cross for our sins. He then raises from the dead breaking the power of both sin and death. If we will believe and accept this payment and forgiveness we are reconciled to God for all of eternity and will spend eternity with God in God's heaven.

The problem is... I don't know who I am talking to. Some people don't believe they are sinners, so what do you do just forget them? Or do you invite them to begin walking in what Jesus called the kingdom of God? You learn pretty quick that you are not sinless if you do that. Some people do not believe in any supernatural entity called God, do you just turn your back on them? or do you invite them to come along, and believe that as you walk with them you will get chances to point out God's presence evidenced in their lives?

In addition, the problem I have had in the past when trying to talk to Josh is that I also believe that we have not read Paul in his context. Paul was a theologian, he was concerned with the theology of the new church. But he was not operating in a vacuum. The church was built on the understanding of the kingdom. We know this as the church were called both "Christians" (fanatical followers of the Messiah) and "the way" (suggesting a way of living) So when I talk to people that are already Christians, particularly those in leadership about the gospel, I talk about what Jesus said was the gospel, not what Paul said. Because I believe the church of today has too much thinking about things and not enough doing. Like James said, "faith without works is dead". So when Paul begins to talk about the gospel, it is in the context of a church that already understands the concept of kingdom come. Our modern church has either forgotten it, or embraced a two kingdom ethic. Therefore, Paul's words though true, are misunderstood and misapplied. We wind up with a faith that results in doctrinal acceptance, and personal sin management. But this is not the full message of the gospel in scripture, it is a part of it. If you just take a part of it, you screw it all up.

This all adds up to my refusal to accept such silly concept as to pretend that I am leading someone to the Lord without any context, any relationship and any community. While he sits back and judges me. If Josh would like to start with his "proclamation of the gospel" then I can put some context to the discussion and respond. Otherwise there needs to be a better foundation for the discussion.

rev
7/16/12 12:25 PM
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Rocky Dennis
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Rev

You said you wanted to Skype, he said yes.  You are now trying to back pedal over semantics.

Why not just make the call?
7/16/12 12:38 PM
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reverend john
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I will skype, but I am not going to play make believe. If he wants to talk about the gospel then I will talk about the gospel. I will do it in my way, or we will agree upon something together. I will even agree to just talk, and ask and answer questions. But I am not going to do the "pretend I am an unbeliever who knows nothing"

The two reasons I wont are:

1. it isn't true

2. it isn't how the gospel is shared in my life

rev
7/16/12 12:39 PM
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reverend john
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by the way, it was him who challenged me to a skype debate, this is my accepting

rev
7/16/12 1:31 PM
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Grakman
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I'm interested in learning how much of the Gospel one must understand in order to be saved. Does the person have to understand the penal substitution theory of the atonement in order to be saved? What if their understanding of the Gospel is the governmental or Christus Victor theory of atonement, are they still saved or does one have to understand that it's penal substitution?
7/16/12 1:38 PM
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reverend john
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see that is one of the things Grakman, the word gospel does not mean salvation. It does not mean soteriology. The word gospel is the word evangelion, which was actually the word used for the political announcements of Rome. So it technically means good news, but in its context it means more than that. Salvation is only part of what the good news is.

If we are talking about what it takes to have eternal salvation... then we get much more specific. Josh of course has never clarified what he is asking for, telling me, "just tell me the gospel thats simple, why are you complicating it" When the fact is the gospel is more than salvation.

rev

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