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JKD UnderGround >> Is JKD really 'Stage Fighting' like movie fencing?


7/18/12 8:58 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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 My theory is that JKD as practiced and taught by Guro Dan and others is really stage fighting, like what you see in movies WRT fencing.

It looks good, looks economical, looks structured, but in reality, it's not doable in real combat.

Some people with higher than normal attributes have managed to 'make it work', but I think really great stage fighting fencers could also 'make it work' against untrained opponents.

This is why, IMO, JKD doesn't really have many (any?) mixed martial arts champs. Besides Erik Paulson, the list is quite short.

Matt Thornton has tried to bring us out of these 'stage fighting' doldrums via his 'aliveness' concepts, but I think the bulk of JKD guys are still hampered by this aspect. 

I challenge all JKD guys on the forum to sit down and really be honest with yourself - is JKD as I postulate?

Comments?
7/18/12 4:01 PM
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jrrrrr
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Fighters fight, martial art types type on forums and talk about what they should be training.
Wrestlers, boxers...people who are training to specifically compete in a martial sport actually train to fight in that venue.
Martial artists, jkd, wing chun.. whatever, study their martial art to get better in their art, learn, etc. THey are not there to look at someone they don't know and compete against them.
Its not the style/teacher... its the student knowing why they are there in the first place.

Trouble is that martial art types trick themselves into thinking they are one type of person when they are actually not.
7/18/12 6:04 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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^^ I agree. Study of martial arts should be considered a hobby, historical study, perhaps physical fitness, and in a limited sense sportive in nature. 

For serious self-defense issues, seek other options. If you have to go H2H you have already failed to be situationally aware, to evade, to de-escalate. Having some MA training can afford one some options to avoid fighting, likewise having a dog, learning defensive driving, carrying a firearm, or in extreme cases hiring a body guard.

But the specific question is that it appears to me that JKD is widely practiced as a type of stage fighting (stage meaning theatrical). Even BL seemed to practice it in that manner (note the back yard training with James Coburn). I was wondering if other people saw evidence of this also.
7/19/12 7:54 PM
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jrrrrr
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Are you referring to the 'attribute"drills?
It depends on how they are used and sometimes overused. You can learn alot with the drills. The thing one needs to do is balance them out with regular sparring and then review on what skills are missing.
7/25/12 11:56 PM
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ReneH
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Widespread Panic,


During my time training with some notable JKD instructors, they would often allude to how things were taught during their stint at Inosanto's.

Some would say that Dan operated his school like a university, which explains why he taught various arts and also continues to have guest instructors from various martial arts disciplines today. Just like courses taught at a typical university, each is specific in nature, with it's own syllabi.

While training with another JKD instructor, he would also state that Dan teaches you lots of material, but he expects you to "figure it" out on your own. In other words, if you are looking to learn as many "courses," as possible just like in a university, then you go to people like Dan and perhaps some of his top instructors under him.

If you seek to learn a condensed, something "doable in combat," then you find some people like perhaps Vunak or Thornton. In my opinion, each is at a level where they have chipped away the fluff from the art(s) and have come up with something more suited to straight out street combat.

If you have a propensity to do a formal study for martial arts with all the theory that goes along with it, then I think Dan's is a good place. However, that's not to say his guys can't fight. If you have a propensity to want to learn something more suited for the realities of street combat only, then you probably know where to go.

Just my opinion.
7/26/12 1:48 PM
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markijkd
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JKD is taught differently by many and in fact, as we all know, we can not even agree on it's definition. However, the way I practice/teach it is: Solo, Partner and Multiple in Compliant, Semi-Compliant and Non-Compliant way... Furthermore, tactics are based on visceral and tactile perception based on alignment, leverage and distance and practiced in both dueling (on guard) and natural (no apparent guard)...
8/2/12 8:58 AM
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Scott Elliott
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JKD has many, many champs and top fighters out there, even in the UFC. They just don't wave the JKD banner as high as some. They come from JKD schools from all types of teachers, even the Inosanto lineage.

Dan Inosanto has not made it his mission to train fighters. He's never once said that to my knowledge. He has devoted his life to studying and preserving the martial arts without bias and bringing other options to light for those with an open mind.

He teaches the arts to his students and they can do with it what they wish. Some people will teach and train for self-defense, fitness, fun and recreation and, yes, some for fighting. It's your path, you walk it as you see fit. If you want to fight, he will be the first person to point you toward the arts that will best suit your needs and even the best people to train with.

A short list of fighters coming out of JKD camps, Sean Sherk, Ben Saunders, Jacob Volkman, Julie Kedzie, Tamdan McCrory, Pat Barry, Paul Bradley, Kaitlyn Young, Tim Boetsch, Erik Paulson, Cub Swanson, Josh Barnett, Brock Lesnar...the list goes on and on. Almost all of those come out of Inosanto Lineage gyms and all are top tier fighters and champs.

All of those fighters came out of and/or currently train in JKD camps. That's just a quick list off the top of my head.
8/2/12 11:56 AM
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lloydmtz
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In "Real Combat" (High-Level Violence)I don't care what art or style you practice, you nor I, will ever really know what is going to "work" or "not work". In actuality, most people play at their interpretation of what they think a Real Violent encounter will look like.

Look at videos of Real World Violence and watch a JKD or any other class and you probably won't see much in common. Yet people will still practice based on their interpretation of what "Real Combat" would look like.

I highly doubt most people who teach or train in any form of Martial Arts have or will ever be in a High-Level Violent situation. The most we can do is play out our ideas of it on the mat.

Maybe the Masters knew this already so they decided just to enjoy their Art?
8/9/12 7:10 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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lloydmtz - In "Real Combat" (High-Level Violence)I don't care what art or style you practice, you nor I, will ever really know what is going to "work" or "not work". In actuality, most people play at their interpretation of what they think a Real Violent encounter will look like.

Look at videos of Real World Violence and watch a JKD or any other class and you probably won't see much in common. Yet people will still practice based on their interpretation of what "Real Combat" would look like.

I highly doubt most people who teach or train in any form of Martial Arts have or will ever be in a High-Level Violent situation. The most we can do is play out our ideas of it on the mat.

Maybe the Masters knew this already so they decided just to enjoy their Art?

Interesting thoughts... 
8/10/12 12:14 AM
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markijkd
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lloydmtz - "In "Real Combat" (High-Level Violence)I don't care what art or style you practice, you nor I, will ever really know what is going to "work" or "not work". In actuality, most people play at their interpretation of what they think a Real Violent encounter will look like.

Look at videos of Real World Violence and watch a JKD or any other class and you probably won't see much in common. Yet people will still practice based on their interpretation of what "Real Combat" would look like.

I highly doubt most people who teach or train in any form of Martial Arts have or will ever be in a High-Level Violent situation. The most we can do is play out our ideas of it on the mat.

Maybe the Masters knew this already so they decided just to enjoy their Art?"

Yes, I think so as well and in my experience the best fighters that I have met, fight often and the second best I have met, spar often...
8/27/12 7:51 AM
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Spartan79
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Jkd shouldn't be a art IMO its a Philosophy. Phone Post
8/27/12 6:58 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Spartan79 -  Jkd shouldn't be a art IMO its a Philosophy. Phone Post

I am a JKD theomachist.

I do see how JKD can be applied in MMA or politics or what have you as an "idological approach", which, when tested against opposing forces, may serve as a rampart against attack.

But it's a meathod of means. Which may change with every new obstacle.

8/30/12 5:24 PM
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BshMstr
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lloydmtz - In "Real Combat" (High-Level Violence)I don't care what art or style you practice, you nor I, will ever really know what is going to "work" or "not work". In actuality, most people play at their interpretation of what they think a Real Violent encounter will look like.

Look at videos of Real World Violence and watch a JKD or any other class and you probably won't see much in common. Yet people will still practice based on their interpretation of what "Real Combat" would look like.

I highly doubt most people who teach or train in any form of Martial Arts have or will ever be in a High-Level Violent situation. The most we can do is play out our ideas of it on the mat.

Maybe the Masters knew this already so they decided just to enjoy their Art?

while i'm not a JKD practionier, i think what's said here is largely true, for all martial arts.

there are so many things in a "street fight" that change the dynamics....pavement, clothes, multiple opponenents, weapons, etc.

i think the training environment for this is really hard....the better you get at your art, the farther away from a common sucker puncher you might be. it's almost as if you get better at fighting skilled fighters, but not neccessarily untrained attackers.
8/30/12 6:26 PM
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jcblass
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I love how JKD is being defined in the same way Savate, for example, would be. The point of JKD was its lack of a solid definition, skill set, or techniques. It was a style predicated on the individuals and their talents and abilities. I am not sure this debate is really possible to have if we are using "JKD" as properly understood and intended by B.L.
8/31/12 11:16 PM
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JRockwell
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I've started using a lot of movements which strangely resemble a "pak sao" in my Bjj game lately, I'm not sure if that counts or not. :) Phone Post
9/12/12 6:17 PM
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Siciliano
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BshMstr - you are so right. LOL.
9/14/12 9:37 AM
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Joe Maffei
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lloydmtz - In "Real Combat" (High-Level Violence)I don't care what art or style you practice, you nor I, will ever really know what is going to "work" or "not work". In actuality, most people play at their interpretation of what they think a Real Violent encounter will look like.

Look at videos of Real World Violence and watch a JKD or any other class and you probably won't see much in common. Yet people will still practice based on their interpretation of what "Real Combat" would look like.

I highly doubt most people who teach or train in any form of Martial Arts have or will ever be in a High-Level Violent situation. The most we can do is play out our ideas of it on the mat.

Maybe the Masters knew this already so they decided just to enjoy their Art?

First I have been in some prety messed sup situations, so I know it a little. And you can train and predict to a very high degree what will happen in every violent situation and you can train for that. So I agree with some of this, but I disagree with it as well.
11/30/12 11:24 PM
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sniper1026
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Scott Elliott - JKD has many, many champs and top fighters out there, even in the UFC. They just don't wave the JKD banner as high as some. They come from JKD schools from all types of teachers, even the Inosanto lineage.

Dan Inosanto has not made it his mission to train fighters. He's never once said that to my knowledge. He has devoted his life to studying and preserving the martial arts without bias and bringing other options to light for those with an open mind.

He teaches the arts to his students and they can do with it what they wish. Some people will teach and train for self-defense, fitness, fun and recreation and, yes, some for fighting. It's your path, you walk it as you see fit. If you want to fight, he will be the first person to point you toward the arts that will best suit your needs and even the best people to train with.

A short list of fighters coming out of JKD camps, Sean Sherk, Ben Saunders, Jacob Volkman, Julie Kedzie, Tamdan McCrory, Pat Barry, Paul Bradley, Kaitlyn Young, Tim Boetsch, Erik Paulson, Cub Swanson, Josh Barnett, Brock Lesnar...the list goes on and on. Almost all of those come out of Inosanto Lineage gyms and all are top tier fighters and champs.

All of those fighters came out of and/or currently train in JKD camps. That's just a quick list off the top of my head.

Pat Militich.
12/19/12 7:51 PM
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springy palm
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12/19/12 7:53 PM
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springy palm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Rkq6rM_0he8
12/19/12 7:58 PM
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springy palm
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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Rkq6rM_0he8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
12/19/12 8:00 PM
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springy palm
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I'm sorry about the last three posts guys, go to this url

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkq6rM_0he8
12/20/12 2:20 AM
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markijkd
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Science -

I have met people from many different styles who see their style in JKD... Most of the time it is quite funny to me... Then again, it is their perspective... If you want to learn wc then study wc, if you want to learn jkd then study jkd, if you want to create your own, personal style then be honest about the resources... I personally have agreements and disagreements with every style I have ever studied... What I do agree with in general is that it must be functional and effective outside of it's self...It must be refined and well rounded at the same time as well as being scientific and natural at the same time:) JKD is not wc, fencing and boxing it is JKD... The style mindset is the limitation as well as the resource but there are other resources outside of styles... This is what BL discovered as his source of liberation... What are the resources other than styles? This is the direction I would suggest:)
12/23/12 7:01 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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You must adequately stress test your implementation of your personal JKD.

This is the key.

Demi did it and in his mind, some of it failed. But I think he went too far and chucked out the whole thing.

Demi stress tested use of pepper spray - he did real testing, he advocated ACTUALLY using it in a kill box training area.

Get your art and stress test it in a kill box area against people of AT LEAST similar attributes - wear gear for safety reasons as you need to.

BL stress tested JKD a little, but most people you see doing it are not doing Marc Denny style stuff and even he plays softly with his students in DLO. BL did his stress testing his failure analysis by himself, against the devils in his mind. He did pretty well.

But his disciples only saw the 'hidden' external reality and the movies. Why have we never had another BL? ASK YOURSELF THIS QUESTION. It is the MOST important one in all of JKD.

The key to the answer is in this post.

 

1/9/13 7:17 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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WidespreadPanic - 

You must adequately stress test your implementation of your personal JKD.

This is the key.

Demi did it and in his mind, some of it failed. But I think he went too far and chucked out the whole thing.

Demi stress tested use of pepper spray - he did real testing, he advocated ACTUALLY using it in a kill box training area.

Get your art and stress test it in a kill box area against people of AT LEAST similar attributes - wear gear for safety reasons as you need to.

BL stress tested JKD a little, but most people you see doing it are not doing Marc Denny style stuff and even he plays softly with his students in DLO. BL did his stress testing his failure analysis by himself, against the devils in his mind. He did pretty well.

But his disciples only saw the 'hidden' external reality and the movies. Why have we never had another BL? ASK YOURSELF THIS QUESTION. It is the MOST important one in all of JKD.

The key to the answer is in this post.

 


Exactly...

 

I did it with firearms too. I became a SIMUNITION Supervisor and did TONS of SIMS scenarios.

 

It's like taking every element you train to the "stress test level" of boxing. 


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