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S&C UnderGround >> Bodyweight Squats for high reps=worthless??

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8/6/12 1:55 PM
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1st Round Armbar
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Leigh - My thoughts are that jumps for time will not be as effective as squatting for building leg strength Phone Post
Makes sense, I might add some squats on another day, best of both worlds, the jump squats hopefully are a good plyo workout and good for explosiveness and vertical leap

only problem is I workout at home without a squat rack, so I can only squat as much as I can lift over my head which is about 70kg Phone Post
8/7/12 2:46 PM
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hugomma
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Adventure Runner - "If you don't mind me asking, where did you get this progression? And what's a deck squat?"

CDarwin posted the deck squat. The single leg squat should be done in deck squat fashion as well.

I got it from the Gymnastic Bodies book or trainers. It's tough to mentally keep track of what I learned in the book, on that forum, and in person. If you've never heard of the book, go over to gymnasticbodies.com and check it out. The forum is almost a necessary compliment to it because the book is a little too light on exactly how/when to progress, how to properly prepare your body for the stress (wrists, elbows, and shoulders especially), and how to put together a proper training program.

I've started focusing more on my climbing, so I've switched to doing mainly gymnastic exercise. I had forgotten what absolute ass kickers even 3 reps of bodyweight exercises can be. Learning how to build a program and build yourself up is the hardest part. There isn't much info floating around.

Thanks for sharing, as well as your other posts.  Looks like I'll have to check out the book & website.  Best of luck with the climbing.

 VTFU, & TTT.
8/8/12 12:03 PM
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Adventure Runner
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^^ Thanks! I'm 2.5 weeks away from climbing Grand Teton now, and I'm starting to get really excited. The book is great for the progressions, but the website (and individual instruction if you can find an adult gymnastics class in your area) is instrumental put everything together. You just have to do a lot of digging. I'll always be happy to answer any questions.
8/8/12 4:58 PM
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hugomma
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 Best of luck with Grand Teton.  Let us know how it goes.
8/9/12 4:25 AM
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Friction
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I had some good results with bw squats. I started with sets of 15 quick, deep reps throughout the day. I eventually progressed to doing up to 60 at a time without any fatigue. I progressed them like pull ups. I would start strong and end strong. I definitely noticed better endurance overall. A little more explosive, but I dl and barbell squat also. I like them for their simplicity and you can do them pretty much anywhere.
8/9/12 7:21 AM
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banco
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I don't get the fascination with bodyweight training. Seems like you can achieve strength or strength endurance a lot more efficiently with barbell squats.
8/9/12 7:33 AM
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CDarwin
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banco - I don't get the fascination with bodyweight training. Seems like you can achieve strength or strength endurance a lot more efficiently with barbell squats.

Some are really hard core "believers", others just like it for the added possibility to work out when gym isn't an option.

Personally I like the whole idea as a principle. Apart from looking fit, what use is strength training anyway? I can see some but not that many applications in everyday life that isn't about doing marvelous feats of strength bw style.

I don't need to have arm and back strength that is stronger than my grip so I don't do hand wraps anymore, etc.

My biggest beef with bw stuff is the limitations of it. I know there are a gazillion variations out there but for an old guy like myself I need equipment to pinpoint angles that avoid various injuries. I do dumbbells instead of barbells because I can avoid tiny variations in motions because of it. Pushups are like barbells in that respect according to my left elbow and my right shoulder. My right shoulder and my neck says handstand shoulder presses is too heavy. Etc, etc.
8/9/12 9:10 AM
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banco
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CDarwin - 
banco - I don't get the fascination with bodyweight training. Seems like you can achieve strength or strength endurance a lot more efficiently with barbell squats.

Some are really hard core "believers", others just like it for the added possibility to work out when gym isn't an option.

Personally I like the whole idea as a principle. Apart from looking fit, what use is strength training anyway? I can see some but not that many applications in everyday life that isn't about doing marvelous feats of strength bw style.

I don't need to have arm and back strength that is stronger than my grip so I don't do hand wraps anymore, etc.

My biggest beef with bw stuff is the limitations of it. I know there are a gazillion variations out there but for an old guy like myself I need equipment to pinpoint angles that avoid various injuries. I do dumbbells instead of barbells because I can avoid tiny variations in motions because of it. Pushups are like barbells in that respect according to my left elbow and my right shoulder. My right shoulder and my neck says handstand shoulder presses is too heavy. Etc, etc.

I'm a big believer that's it's important (or at least wise) to try to put on a reasonable amount of muscle mass by the time you are in your early 30's. Maintaining muscle mass into your 30's and 40's has a multitude of benefits. It's a lot easier to build muscle with weights.
8/9/12 9:45 AM
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CDarwin
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Agree. And it works out for me, focusing on maintaing and getting back what I created as a young man... :) Phone Post
8/9/12 10:53 AM
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Adventure Runner
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"I don't get the fascination with bodyweight training. Seems like you can achieve strength or strength endurance a lot more efficiently with barbell squats."

I don't think it's a fascination. Some people don't have/can't afford access to weight training equipment. Some people don't have/can't afford access to trainers if they are unsure about technique and not comfortable with the lift. Some people just plain enjoy working bodyweight variations more than barbell lifts. At the end of the day, the more efficient strength and endurance builder is what you enjoy doing and in turn what you'll do consistently over time.

I think it's easier to mark progress with weights. A 225 lbs barbell is a 225 lbs barbell. You can lift it a number of times or you can't. It's also easier to incrementally add to the level of difficulty by adding weight to said barbell. Not so with say a 15 second back lever. It can be very hard at determine progress in bodyweight exercise and thus can lead to a feel of stagnation when in reality you are getting stronger. The jumps are also bigger. A straddle back level to a half lay would be like going from 225 lbs to 285 lbs in one go, so it's harder to progress in as systematic a fashion as you do with weights.

However, I'd disagree with building muscle. While I'm not a HYOOGE guy by any measure, I'm not small or out of shape.

Here's a pic of me running a 4 mile obstacle race with a backpack full of bricks and carrying a 16kg KB (and I shotgunnned beers every mile): https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/301597_286654428011466_2038411575_n.jpg

(The whole album is open to public on my site's FB page: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.286653874678188.79566.167340703276173&type=3)

Going by the very unscientific mirror and scale test, I've put on a few lbs of lean mass in past couple months I've been focusing on gymnastics (mostly upperbody). Shit is no joke. :) This does make me think of possibly trying to do a 5-3-1 type of intensity wave with gymnastic static holds. I'll think about that!
8/9/12 11:26 AM
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vermonter
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IMO calisthenics (as compared to "bodyweight") is more fun than gym work. There are few things more boring to me than standing in a cage and doing squats. I'd so much rather do a one-legged squat at home weighted with shit around my house.
8/21/12 10:55 AM
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El_Varaco
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. Phone Post
8/21/12 2:02 PM
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TheKidAintMine
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8/21/12 10:44 PM
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banco
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Adventure Runner - "I don't get the fascination with bodyweight training. Seems like you can achieve strength or strength endurance a lot more efficiently with barbell squats."

I don't think it's a fascination. Some people don't have/can't afford access to weight training equipment. Some people don't have/can't afford access to trainers if they are unsure about technique and not comfortable with the lift. Some people just plain enjoy working bodyweight variations more than barbell lifts. At the end of the day, the more efficient strength and endurance builder is what you enjoy doing and in turn what you'll do consistently over time.

I think it's easier to mark progress with weights. A 225 lbs barbell is a 225 lbs barbell. You can lift it a number of times or you can't. It's also easier to incrementally add to the level of difficulty by adding weight to said barbell. Not so with say a 15 second back lever. It can be very hard at determine progress in bodyweight exercise and thus can lead to a feel of stagnation when in reality you are getting stronger. The jumps are also bigger. A straddle back level to a half lay would be like going from 225 lbs to 285 lbs in one go, so it's harder to progress in as systematic a fashion as you do with weights.

However, I'd disagree with building muscle. While I'm not a HYOOGE guy by any measure, I'm not small or out of shape.

Here's a pic of me running a 4 mile obstacle race with a backpack full of bricks and carrying a 16kg KB (and I shotgunnned beers every mile): https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/301597_286654428011466_2038411575_n.jpg

(The whole album is open to public on my site's FB page: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.286653874678188.79566.167340703276173&type=3)

Going by the very unscientific mirror and scale test, I've put on a few lbs of lean mass in past couple months I've been focusing on gymnastics (mostly upperbody). Shit is no joke. :) This does make me think of possibly trying to do a 5-3-1 type of intensity wave with gymnastic static holds. I'll think about that!

I do think there's a fascination with bodyweight stuff in mma and boxing circles. It's broadly accepted with say football that if you want to get strong you lift weights. Similarly you don't see track and field athletes screwing around with pushup variations or doing one legged squats.
8/22/12 6:20 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 08/22/12 6:21 PM
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CDarwin - My biggest beef with bw stuff is the limitations of it. I know there are a gazillion variations out there but for an old guy like myself I need equipment to pinpoint angles that avoid various injuries. I do dumbbells instead of barbells because I can avoid tiny variations in motions because of it. Pushups are like barbells in that respect according to my left elbow and my right shoulder. My right shoulder and my neck says handstand shoulder presses is too heavy. Etc, etc.

I have never seen this put so succinctly.
8/22/12 6:23 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Adventure Runner - "I don't get the fascination with bodyweight training. Seems like you can achieve strength or strength endurance a lot more efficiently with barbell squats."

I don't think it's a fascination. Some people don't have/can't afford access to weight training equipment. Some people don't have/can't afford access to trainers if they are unsure about technique and not comfortable with the lift. Some people just plain enjoy working bodyweight variations more than barbell lifts. At the end of the day, the more efficient strength and endurance builder is what you enjoy doing and in turn what you'll do consistently over time.

I think it's easier to mark progress with weights. A 225 lbs barbell is a 225 lbs barbell. You can lift it a number of times or you can't. It's also easier to incrementally add to the level of difficulty by adding weight to said barbell. Not so with say a 15 second back lever. It can be very hard at determine progress in bodyweight exercise and thus can lead to a feel of stagnation when in reality you are getting stronger. The jumps are also bigger. A straddle back level to a half lay would be like going from 225 lbs to 285 lbs in one go, so it's harder to progress in as systematic a fashion as you do with weights.

However, I'd disagree with building muscle. While I'm not a HYOOGE guy by any measure, I'm not small or out of shape.

Here's a pic of me running a 4 mile obstacle race with a backpack full of bricks and carrying a 16kg KB (and I shotgunnned beers every mile): https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/301597_286654428011466_2038411575_n.jpg

(The whole album is open to public on my site's FB page: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.286653874678188.79566.167340703276173&type=3)

Going by the very unscientific mirror and scale test, I've put on a few lbs of lean mass in past couple months I've been focusing on gymnastics (mostly upperbody). Shit is no joke. :) This does make me think of possibly trying to do a 5-3-1 type of intensity wave with gymnastic static holds. I'll think about that!

8/22/12 6:28 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Adventure Runner - "I don't get the fascination with bodyweight training. Seems like you can achieve strength or strength endurance a lot more efficiently with barbell squats."

I don't think it's a fascination. Some people don't have/can't afford access to weight training equipment. Some people don't have/can't afford access to trainers if they are unsure about technique and not comfortable with the lift. Some people just plain enjoy working bodyweight variations more than barbell lifts. At the end of the day, the more efficient strength and endurance builder is what you enjoy doing and in turn what you'll do consistently over time.

I think it's easier to mark progress with weights. A 225 lbs barbell is a 225 lbs barbell. You can lift it a number of times or you can't. It's also easier to incrementally add to the level of difficulty by adding weight to said barbell. Not so with say a 15 second back lever. It can be very hard at determine progress in bodyweight exercise and thus can lead to a feel of stagnation when in reality you are getting stronger. The jumps are also bigger. A straddle back level to a half lay would be like going from 225 lbs to 285 lbs in one go, so it's harder to progress in as systematic a fashion as you do with weights.

However, I'd disagree with building muscle. While I'm not a HYOOGE guy by any measure, I'm not small or out of shape.

Here's a pic of me running a 4 mile obstacle race with a backpack full of bricks and carrying a 16kg KB (and I shotgunnned beers every mile): https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/301597_286654428011466_2038411575_n.jpg

(The whole album is open to public on my site's FB page: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.286653874678188.79566.167340703276173&type=3)

Going by the very unscientific mirror and scale test, I've put on a few lbs of lean mass in past couple months I've been focusing on gymnastics (mostly upperbody). Shit is no joke. :) This does make me think of possibly trying to do a 5-3-1 type of intensity wave with gymnastic static holds. I'll think about that!

Yup. What is the best gym in the world? The one you actually go to. The best workout? The one you actually do consistently.
8/22/12 9:18 PM
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gusto
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"I do think there's a fascination with bodyweight stuff in mma and boxing circles. It's broadly accepted with say football that if you want to get strong you lift weights. Similarly you don't see track and field athletes screwing around with pushup variations or doing one legged squats."


weight classes?
8/23/12 6:39 AM
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HULC
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banco - 
Adventure Runner - "I don't get the fascination with bodyweight training. Seems like you can achieve strength or strength endurance a lot more efficiently with barbell squats."

I don't think it's a fascination. Some people don't have/can't afford access to weight training equipment. Some people don't have/can't afford access to trainers if they are unsure about technique and not comfortable with the lift. Some people just plain enjoy working bodyweight variations more than barbell lifts. At the end of the day, the more efficient strength and endurance builder is what you enjoy doing and in turn what you'll do consistently over time.

I think it's easier to mark progress with weights. A 225 lbs barbell is a 225 lbs barbell. You can lift it a number of times or you can't. It's also easier to incrementally add to the level of difficulty by adding weight to said barbell. Not so with say a 15 second back lever. It can be very hard at determine progress in bodyweight exercise and thus can lead to a feel of stagnation when in reality you are getting stronger. The jumps are also bigger. A straddle back level to a half lay would be like going from 225 lbs to 285 lbs in one go, so it's harder to progress in as systematic a fashion as you do with weights.

However, I'd disagree with building muscle. While I'm not a HYOOGE guy by any measure, I'm not small or out of shape.

Here's a pic of me running a 4 mile obstacle race with a backpack full of bricks and carrying a 16kg KB (and I shotgunnned beers every mile): https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/301597_286654428011466_2038411575_n.jpg

(The whole album is open to public on my site's FB page: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.286653874678188.79566.167340703276173&type=3)

Going by the very unscientific mirror and scale test, I've put on a few lbs of lean mass in past couple months I've been focusing on gymnastics (mostly upperbody). Shit is no joke. :) This does make me think of possibly trying to do a 5-3-1 type of intensity wave with gymnastic static holds. I'll think about that!

I do think there's a fascination with bodyweight stuff in mma and boxing circles. It's broadly accepted with say football that if you want to get strong you lift weights. Similarly you don't see track and field athletes screwing around with pushup variations or doing one legged squats.

I've never met an athlete who hasn't done press ups, and just recently i read an article by a long jumper who said single leg squats were the best exercises for anyone who ran or jumped.

Personally i find the need to trash BW exercises among some weight trainers to be the thing i understand least.
8/31/12 7:02 PM
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Breeze05
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9/1/12 11:54 PM
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jimmy23
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http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Gravity-Systematic-Gymnastics-Bodyweight/dp/1467933120 http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Gravity-Systematic-Gymnastics-Bodyweight/dp/1467933120  
9/1/12 11:56 PM
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mwmhong
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9/3/12 6:14 AM
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CDarwin
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 I'm shifting to a two split, upper vs lower body thing at 3-4 workouts per week. (I have been doing 3-splits chest/back/legs for ages and want to try something new for a while.)

I did legs yesterday and can't imagine doing heavy ("heavy" for me, not powerlifter heavy) lifting again so soon after. I'm thinking of alternating my lower body days as weights one session and bw the other.

Does anyone have any experience with that idea?

9/3/12 12:48 PM
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Adventure Runner
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I've experimented with something similar CD. I'd alternate weighted and unweighted workouts. I've also alternated weighted and unweighted weeks. It's somewhat along the lines of pendulum training:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/pendulum_training

I had some success as long as I slowed my attempted gains down to baby steps. At the end of the day, I'm reminded of the old zen proverb of "the hunter that chases two rabbits catches neither one". I've gone through years of constant variation and almost paralysis by analysis where I was constantly tweaking routines trying to accomplish everything. I've always had my greatest results when I focused solely on a single thing: maximal strength, strength endurance, gymnastics strength, or whatever. Whenever I tried "focussing" on more than one thing, progress would grind to a near halt after a brief period of introductory gains. Nature favors the specialist.
12/27/12 3:56 AM
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Leigh
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I have been doing this progression for the past few weeks. Its not bad at all, legs got stronger (not worked leg strength for a couple of years) and my cns doesn't take anything like the pounding it does from squats. Ultumately though, balance became the limiting factoe - doing deck squats with a 20kg plate was doable but that's about it. I started banging my knee on the weights and other small things like that when I went heavier

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