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UnderGround Forums >> 1/2 Pt rules passes ABC, Judging delayed 3 mos


7/25/12 12:09 PM
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Underground Blog
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MixedMartialArts.com
 

The Association of Boxing Commission MMA Judging Committee spent the past year reviewing 1/2 point scoring and the Unified Rules judging criteria.

Chaired by Tennessee's Jeff Mullen, the Juding committee consists of Aaron Davis, Ed Garner, Dale Kliparchuk, Josef Mason, Todd Neal, Nick Lembo, Andy Foster, Terry Smith, and Joseph Cooper. Mullen brings an extraordinary background to the effort; the committee's conclusions represent solid steps forward for the sport.

At the 2012 ABC convention, the ABC voted to adopt the recommendation of the committe to not implement 1/2 point scoring as the recommendation of the ABC.

However, the ABC decided to wait a further 90 days on the changes in the recommended Unified Rules judging criteria. During the 90 days, further public comment and feeback from stakefolders in the industry will be sought.

The committee redefined and repriortized the current judging system. There were several critical elements to the proposed changes:
•Striking and grappling were put on equal footing, where formerly striking had been more important.
•Impact and effect of striking and grappling were brought to the forefront, over the sheer number of strikes or submission attempts, etc. Thus heavy shots and near submissions became more influential in judge a bout.
•Defense was removed a separate consideration, as defense is its own reward.
•Effective Aggression was moved in importance above Cage Control, reversing the former order.
•Offered further clarification on what constitiutes a 10-10, 10-9, 10-8, and 10-7 round, including explicit direction that a 10-10 and 10-7 round should be rare.

The UG is the community, so post your thoughts on the recommended changes, and they will be sent to the top.


7/25/12 12:10 PM
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Kerouac
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I'm liking those proposals so far
7/25/12 12:13 PM
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Chimonos Revenge
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I like all those recommendations.
7/25/12 12:19 PM
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JCNovak
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I don't like them telling people that 10-10 rounds should be rare. if there is not a clear winner then call it 10-10, no reason to guess. thats why we get so many bad scorecards now.
7/25/12 12:26 PM
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zombie prophet
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if it's a half point system then a 10-10 should be rare, no? wouldn't someone eeking out a round be 10-9.5?
7/25/12 12:29 PM
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MMAxNate
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 The 10-10 rarity thing is the only issue I have with that.
7/25/12 12:32 PM
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Kerouac
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JCNovak - I don't like them telling people that 10-10 rounds should be rare. if there is not a clear winner then call it 10-10, no reason to guess. thats why we get so many bad scorecards now.



That's where the half point system comes into play
7/25/12 12:36 PM
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mixedmartialfarts
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 Why the hell are we talking about adding half points when we don't even utilize the numbers that we have available now?  We are currently using a completely arbitrary 1-10 scale in which we really only use 2 of those numbers (very rarely 3 of them).  The amount of numerical options isn't the problem here, it's the use of those numbers.

We literally might as well just be using a binary 1-0 score for each round, because that's basically what we get with these 10-9 rounds in every fight.
7/25/12 12:38 PM
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BlueWrapper
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Poorly worded article. 1/2 point passes in title, yet body says voted to not implement 1/2 point scoring.

Which is it? Phone Post
7/25/12 12:44 PM
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MattyECB
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Bloody Elbow covered this awhile ago and with much better wording. From my understanding, the half point was stopped because it had essentially no impact, and those changes mentioned at the bottom, are to the 10 point must system, not the potential half point system.

I think the only point in this article is they're now waiting another period to see if there is any further input on why they should change it, which they really shouldn't since it doesn't adress the problem and all applications of it had no visible effect, different from 10point must in the ammy leagues.

So the explicit mentioning of a 10-10 being rare, is likely not going to be helped by the half point system. And we're still never going to see it occur.
7/25/12 12:44 PM
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illini89i
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BlueWrapper - Poorly worded article. 1/2 point passes in title, yet body says voted to not implement 1/2 point scoring.

Which is it? Phone Post
Yes. The 1/2 point system did not pass. So the arguments saying the 10-10 rounds would now become 10-9 1/2 is not accurate. I agree that 10-10 rounds should be rare. Judges should be well trained and they are judges for a reason. To find the small things that will distinguish who wins a round. It's their job. To me a 10-10 round is a cop out. Phone Post
7/25/12 12:45 PM
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jar of flies
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lol @ that article
7/25/12 12:45 PM
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MattyECB
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I think all the changes are smart, except for the potential danger in raising the important of grappling and removing defense as a criteria. This basically means you can have Ebersole shooting a hundred take downs half-assedly, land 1/20 and steal a round.

I suppose the fair counter is that anyone able to defend 20 takedowns and not respond in kind with a striking or submission attempt counter really doesn't deserve the fight either, but... Iunno this seems like it can really exacerbate the wrestling abuses in certain fights
7/25/12 12:49 PM
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orcus
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 [quote]  Why the hell are we talking about adding half points when we don't even utilize the numbers that we have available now?  We are currently using a completely arbitrary 1-10 scale in which we really only use 2 of those numbers (very rarely 3 of them).  The amount of numerical options isn't the problem here, it's the use of those numbers.[/quote]

100% true, of course.

BUT, I think half points will help as a matter of perception. Wrongly, the current system has judges stuck in a boxing mindset. They just can't get their heads around 10-8 and 10-7 being perfectly reasonable scores for a ton of rounds. I think with half points, they will not have that mental block and WILL use them liberally. 
7/25/12 12:57 PM
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jscorbett
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I judged kickboxing beginning in the early 90s using a 1/2 point system. As I recall, it was terribly more complicated to use. I was relieved when the 1/2 point system was removed and full points were implemented.

I believe that a 1/2 point system would not fix things. What is needed is judges to make sound decisions, using a clear and easy to define full point system. Phone Post
7/25/12 1:35 PM
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Thacommish
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orcus -  
<span style="font-size: small; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "> Why the hell are we talking about adding half points when we don't even utilize the numbers that we have available now?  We are currently using a completely arbitrary 1-10 scale in which we really only use 2 of those numbers (very rarely 3 of them).  The amount of numerical options isn't the problem here, it's the use of those numbers.


100% true, of course.

BUT, I think half points will help as a matter of perception. Wrongly, the current system has judges stuck in a boxing mindset. They just can't get their heads around 10-8 and 10-7 being perfectly reasonable scores for a ton of rounds. I think with half points, they will not have that mental block and WILL use them liberally. 

So instead of changing their perception or getting people who do not have this stigma from being old boxing judges you want to completely revamp the system to cater to the people who are already letting us down?
7/25/12 1:37 PM
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Herring In A Fur Coat
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1/2 point DID NOT PASS.

Does UG Blog fuck these titles up on purpose?
7/25/12 2:30 PM
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Voodoo
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Chris/Kirik, thanks for everything this week, it was a lot of fun! Phone Post
7/25/12 2:42 PM
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dabigchet
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those changes are shit and are not going to help judging. some judges are just fucking terrible, and the changes assume that tweaking the criteria as if they are machines who just need fine tuning. judges arent reaching crappy decisions because they are including defense in their criteria or they are valuing cage control over effective aggression. they are reaching crappy decisions because they are shitty judges who don't understand the sport.

allowing for 1/2 points when the margin of victory in a round is slim and stopping the discouragement of even rounds would prevent at least SOME of the bad decisions, at the expense of more draws. and adding an overtime fixes that.
7/25/12 2:44 PM
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Attila
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JCNovak - I don't like them telling people that 10-10 rounds should be rare. if there is not a clear winner then call it 10-10, no reason to guess. thats why we get so many bad scorecards now.

Agreed. It's not uncommon for a round to be virtually equal, so why virtually flip a coin to decide the winner?
7/25/12 2:44 PM
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Chiron
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Do they really need another 90 days to figure out the crap that's been tainting MMA for years now? What kind of a hole are these people living in.

I guess there must be some Edgar fans on the ABC knowing his chances of beating Bendo would be even slimmer with the recommended changes approved.
7/25/12 2:45 PM
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Attila
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Herring In A Fur Coat - 1/2 point DID NOT PASS.

Does UG Blog fuck these titles up on purpose?


I am confused as well. Can someone please quickly sum up the current state of affairs?
7/25/12 2:48 PM
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Chiron
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Attila - 
JCNovak - I don't like them telling people that 10-10 rounds should be rare. if there is not a clear winner then call it 10-10, no reason to guess. thats why we get so many bad scorecards now.

Agreed. It's not uncommon for a round to be virtually equal, so why virtually flip a coin to decide the winner?


I agree too. The proposed rule changes aren't perfect but most of them are an improvement, as long as they let people know that though striking and grappling are to be weighed evenly the judges have been favoring grappling in scoring too much in the past.

Set the rules up to encourage aggressive, threatening fighting and make the fighters prove they should get the round by saying "Hey, if it looks close we're going to call it a 10-10". Saying "10-10's should be rare" is just encouraging some fighters to keep up with alienating strategies that do just enough to barely take the round instead of trying to take it by as wide a margin as they can. That's not how it should be.
7/25/12 2:48 PM
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Chiron
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Attila - 
JCNovak - I don't like them telling people that 10-10 rounds should be rare. if there is not a clear winner then call it 10-10, no reason to guess. thats why we get so many bad scorecards now.

Agreed. It's not uncommon for a round to be virtually equal, so why virtually flip a coin to decide the winner?


I agree too. The proposed rule changes aren't perfect but most of them are an improvement, as long as they let people know that though striking and grappling are to be weighed evenly the judges have been favoring grappling in scoring too much in the past.

Set the rules up to encourage aggressive, threatening fighting and make the fighters prove they should get the round by saying "Hey, if it looks close we're going to call it a 10-10". Saying "10-10's should be rare" is just encouraging some fighters to keep up with alienating strategies that do just enough to barely take the round instead of trying to take it by as wide a margin as they can. That's not how it should be.
7/25/12 2:50 PM
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mrgoodarmbar
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Herring In A Fur Coat - 1/2 point DID NOT PASS.

Does UG Blog fuck these titles up on purpose?


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