UnderGround Forums
 

Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> opinion: more groundwork needed in olympic judo


7/31/12 4:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
superdave08402
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/31/04
Posts: 384
 
I've watched several of the olympics judo matches, both men and women, and realize that groundwork/grappling plays a very small role in the matches. Competitors fall flat on their stomachs attempting throws, and the referees simply stand them up. In my opinion, they should lengthen the time allowed on the ground, which will result in more chokeholds and submissions. This should make the matches more interesting and exciting. In addition, this stays more true to judo as an art of self-defense.
7/31/12 5:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
OCJudoTrngCtr
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/12/07
Posts: 495
There is not one rule in judo that stipulates the amount of time that a judoka can engage in newaza.

What is stipulated is that progress must be made. Now, the question becomes "Do current judo rules allow enough time for progress to be established?"

There has been some effort in educating referees about what constitutes "progress" from the judo perspective. It seems to be getting better.  But if you are looking for judoka to be allowed extended guard/half guard play or attack the turtle without turning the defender over or getting an effective choke in short order...that's not gonna happen.
7/31/12 6:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judom
120 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/31/05
Posts: 2352
superdave,

it would not make the matches more interesting to 99% of the population, perhaps to specialists yes, but not to a random person watching.
8/1/12 5:14 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Spartan79
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/11
Posts: 605
Have to disagree there mate. With the popularity of MMA and BJJ/Judo I think more and more none competitors have a basic understanding. Even if they don't a 25 sec time allowed on the ground would make it more exciting IMO. It would be a fast paced scramble. Giving more chance for roll overs and sub/pins. Phone Post
8/1/12 4:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
26 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 2137
There is no requirement to engage in ground work if the other competitor is on the ground. In fact it is a strategy if behind in the score to let the opponent up to try and score by throw. Or the counter strategy to engage in ground work to kill time when ahead in the score. I think the judo "gods" like the time standup vs groundwork. There are other areas of judo that need to be "looked at".
8/1/12 4:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FlyingKnee_bar
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/12/12
Posts: 12
OCJudoTrngCtr - There is not one rule in judo that stipulates the amount of time that a judoka can engage in newaza.

What is stipulated is that progress must be made. Now, the question becomes "Do current judo rules allow enough time for progress to be established?"

There has been some effort in educating referees about what constitutes "progress" from the judo perspective. It seems to be getting better.  But if you are looking for judoka to be allowed extended guard/half guard play or attack the turtle without turning the defender over or getting an effective choke in short order...that's not gonna happen.


This, it seems to me though that they call matte while one guy is actively working for something which irks me a little bit
8/3/12 5:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
303 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 40980
these threads always come up every 4 years ;p
8/3/12 6:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
UGCTT_45forever
365 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/5/11
Posts: 1749
TTT. Phone Post
8/4/12 4:33 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoshuaResnick
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12571
90% of the time the players themselves do not want to engage in the newaza and the refs know it just by their body language. your idea to allow for 25 seconds would literally waste the match away. there would be the POTENTIAL for only 10 attacks that knock an opponent down and all that would happen as a result would be for somebody to get a tiny lead and then just start engaging in newaza with no intent to do anything except waste the clock-- even worse than the NCAA wrestling's riding time!

i'd like to see the refs just give people who can make some progress and are willing to put in a lot of effort a few extra seconds. nothing more.
8/12/12 12:20 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
supersaiyan
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/20/02
Posts: 38234
alot of the newaza wasnt there imo from the matches i seen and the refs had no problem rushing to stand the opponents up so there was real possibility for ground work in general.


would have been alot of stalling imo and most of the USA audience wouldnt know what the heck they were doing anyway lol
8/14/12 1:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JoshuaResnick
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/02
Posts: 12586
in recent world cups there have been matches with more than 1:20 in newaza out of the 5 minutes. both players were constantly attacking one another in newaza and there was no moment of a stalemate.

in judo, newaza is expected to be accomplished in a manner that does not become impeded. in other words, if you stall me out even for 3 seconds the ref can/will call matte. if i am doing the technique correctly you will not be able to stall me out for more than a moment... that is just the way judo sees things in newaza.

id much rather have it that way than to watch 10 minutes of a bjj match-- even at a world level.
9/20/12 7:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Truemanc3
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 09/20/12 7:24 PM
Member Since: 4/11/06
Posts: 4207
I think if you want to be the best at Judo then just train Judo....
If you want to be a better all around Judoka the do Judo and BJJ.
BJJ has alot to offer in these terms.
Judo rules do not lend themselves to make a Judoka well rounded imo.

The rules need more time on the floor.
In BJJ the score for the takedown needs to be much higher to make those guys work their Judo.
Pulling guard is awful.

Even Freddy Mercury pulled Guard!!
Say no more!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYpRkARK8Io
11/21/12 1:15 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jgunner24
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/20/12
Posts: 6
Just get faster in the application of newaza. Phone Post
11/22/12 1:20 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FOX Force Five
66 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/12/11
Posts: 620
Most clubs have plenty of time to train on the ground.

To have effective groundwork for competition means being quick and getting straight to the hold / sub.

Training in a sport with a slower / more methodical approach will not make you better in competition Judo.
11/22/12 7:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
303 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42194
JoshuaResnick - in recent world cups there have been matches with more than 1:20 in newaza out of the 5 minutes. both players were constantly attacking one another in newaza and there was no moment of a stalemate.

in judo, newaza is expected to be accomplished in a manner that does not become impeded. in other words, if you stall me out even for 3 seconds the ref can/will call matte. if i am doing the technique correctly you will not be able to stall me out for more than a moment... that is just the way judo sees things in newaza.

id much rather have it that way than to watch 10 minutes of a bjj match-- even at a world level.

I think its safer to say Josh that rather than a question of doing a technique correctly, the whole instant progress thing on the ground is more a thing of spectator friendliness. So basically echoing what judom said.

And also, are you saying thats the way you'd rather see a judo match in general (overall) or in regards to newaza specifically on its own (that in in a newaza contest, you would like to see mattes after 3 seconds of non-progress)?
11/22/12 7:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
303 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42195
Truemanc3 - I think if you want to be the best at Judo then just train Judo....
If you want to be a better all around Judoka the do Judo and BJJ.
BJJ has alot to offer in these terms.
Judo rules do not lend themselves to make a Judoka well rounded imo.

The rules need more time on the floor.
In BJJ the score for the takedown needs to be much higher to make those guys work their Judo.
Pulling guard is awful.

Even Freddy Mercury pulled Guard!!
Say no more!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYpRkARK8Io

If the ultimate goal is submission or to dominate the other on the ground, why is pulling guard awful?

If you are better off your back or if your opponent is not particularly at an advantage in your guard or if you are the one who may have an advantage in your guard, why is pulling guard awful?

That and Freddie Mercury was awesome.
11/23/12 12:10 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
keseki
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/27/03
Posts: 618
Olympic judo needs less newaza. Preferably none. Most Japanese people (most who I know at least) would like none at all. They want to see classical, clean throws. They know you can't dominate that way but they don't care. Beautiful judo matters more than medals (for typical old school ordinary middle-aged Japanese, not necessarily competitors).

And the TV stations and sponsors probably like that option too.

Of course, it sucks. But the solution is forget the Olympics and promote Kosen-style tournaments for people who like that style of judo. It will never be as popular but so what.

Or go train BJJ.

Olympic medals and lots of newaza don't mix. Exceptions prove the rule, as usual.
11/24/12 6:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
26 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 2220
I am surprized by your comments since I am told by world class Korean and Japanese players (at seminars) they work equally on standup/ground work. When our Juniors travel to Japan during Cristmas break for the Sanix youth training camp and competition they do like 9 rounds of ground work and 9 rounds of stand up with minimal rest in between.
11/24/12 11:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
keseki
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/27/03
Posts: 619
Does it make sense that they would work 50% on ground when 99% of the contest is not on the ground?

What medal-minded coach is going to let his athletes do that?

11/25/12 6:21 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
26 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 2221
This is how they train not how they win matches. Their ground skills are equally good.
11/25/12 11:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judom
120 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/31/05
Posts: 2586
I am yet to see a good Judo club where newaza is ignored, regardless of the current IJF rules.

In fact, in many clubs newaza is used almost as a warm-up phase, which I think is great. You do 5-6 rounds of newaza and it really prepares your body for stand-up.

Newaza has other overall benefits which are that it makes you stronger, and you can go 100% without fearing injury. Also many people who have some injury from standing training do more newaza until it heals. I know I do that and I feel the injury heals faster as somehow more blood flows through the body.

So yes, Newaza is practiced quite a lot in good judo clubs, regardless of IJF rules. And no, it won't disappear from Judo tournaments, not now and not in the future.
11/26/12 5:58 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
keseki
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/27/03
Posts: 620
Let me get this straight. They train newaza to win with throwing? Their ground skills are equally good but 99% (or whatever the exact figure is) of matches are won standing? Something doesn't add up.

The thread was about Olympic Judo, not clubs. My comment was that ordinary Japanese people like classical judo and don't want to see judo becoming wrestling.

I agree with Joshua Resnick. I don't want to watch BJJ in a judo match.

People like Kimura, Yamashita, Neil Adamas, Flavio Canto who can execute submissions off a throw are the exceptions.

Club players can do whatever they like.
11/26/12 7:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judoblackbelt
26 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/28/07
Posts: 2222
I gave you an answer to your question and you won't accept it. We had Cho In-Chul teach at our dojo for 9 months. He was(South) Korean World Champion(2)and Olympic Silver/Bronze medalist. He said the Olympic team trains ground work to standup 50/50.
11/27/12 7:48 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
keseki
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/27/03
Posts: 621
Koreans have a great sense of humor and like to pull the legs of foreigners. Maybe that's what he was doing.

But then again, Koreans are a very clever and resourceful people. If anyone can find a way to win more Olympic and World medals in a game of throwing by training throwing less, Koreans are the ones who will do it.
11/27/12 3:24 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wasa-B
303 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 42258
keseki - Let me get this straight. They train newaza to win with throwing? Their ground skills are equally good but 99% (or whatever the exact figure is) of matches are won standing? Something doesn't add up.

The thread was about Olympic Judo, not clubs. My comment was that ordinary Japanese people like classical judo and don't want to see judo becoming wrestling.

I agree with Joshua Resnick. I don't want to watch BJJ in a judo match.

People like Kimura, Yamashita, Neil Adamas, Flavio Canto who can execute submissions off a throw are the exceptions.

Club players can do whatever they like.

"People like Kimura, Yamashita, Neil Adamas, Flavio Canto who can execute submissions off a throw are the exceptions."

3/4 of those guys competed in eras where there was more time allowed for newaza as well.

"They train newaza to win with throwing? Their ground skills are equally good but 99% (or whatever the exact figure is) of matches are won standing? Something doesn't add up."

The idea that many top nations and clubs train a lot of newaza even though the majority of judo contests are won with tachiwaza is not a new phenomena or a strange one.

"My comment was that ordinary Japanese people like classical judo and don't want to see judo becoming wrestling."

And I believe that. Its no diff than the majority of MMA fans wanting to see more standup than ground.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.