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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> For Judom: Why Japan struggled this Olympics....


8/9/12 6:55 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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belowzero, I'm not saying Sugimoto is making excuses. I'm stating that the power structure in judo, the coaches and governing bodies, is making excuses.
8/9/12 9:47 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Here's the source for the scoring system blame.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/sports/T120804003543.htm

the Sugimoto quote comes from the Asahi Shimbun, which has an English website called AJW. But, they limit the number of articles you can read in a month, and I'm near my limit, I cannot access that particular article any more.
8/9/12 12:12 PM
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greenhornet
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Great Post, CS! Thank you for taking time to put this together.
8/9/12 5:04 PM
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Wasa-B
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belowzero - OK, thanks. I felt that the article was pure trash, and that guys who seriously train Judo should ignore such reporting. But you are free to believe what you read.

Here is my take on why Japan(men) was able to win only one gold medals.

1) Olympic games are held only every four years, and it is hard for ANYONE to win gold medals. To secure your winning of the gold, you have to be far superior to other competitors, and the way Judo has been trained throughout the world(lots of Judoka from different countries train TOGETHER very often) makes it extremely difficult for only one country to be outstanding.

2) Hiraoka was not able to win the gold because he was just the silver medal material. He tried a counter, which was the right decision, but failed to finish it correctly. That was it. He could have won if he had slightly changed the angle of his counter, like he himself said. But my guess is he would lose to the same opponent 7/10.

3) Ebinuma failed to win the gold mostly because he was susceptible to sumi gaeshi, like most other Japanese players are. However, he proved that he was one of the best by showing a beautiul ippon in the match for a bronze. I'm sure that he will be a better player with a lesson learned.

4) Nakaya could not win the gold PARTLY because he had just recovered from his elbow and neck injury. However, being ranked no. 1 as he was, he finished with a silver.

5) Nakai would not have won the gold under any circumstances.

6) Nishiyama would not have won the gold under any circumstances. He did his best, though, winning the bronze.

7) Anai underestimated his opponent, probably because he had beaten him a couple of times, IIRC, once by pinnng for an ippon. He must have thought that there would come a matte immediately, which did not come to his surprise.

8) I did not see how Kamikawa fought, so I would not comment, but I was not surprised because there are a couple of guys even in Japan who had beaten him before the London.

In my eyes by winning two silvers and two bronzes Japan(men)did no worse this time than they did at the Seoul Olympics, where they won one gold and three bronzes.

Good breakdown and thanks since i only saw the Hiraoka fight. Did you youtube them or caught them on online TV?

"In my eyes by winning two silvers and two bronzes Japan(men)did no worse this time than they did at the Seoul Olympics, where they won one gold and three bronzes."

This. Of course its a big deal to Japan to not win any golds (in mens) but they still medalled 4/7 weights. Only Russia really did better this time around, yeah?

Russia got
8/9/12 5:08 PM
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Wasa-B
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....CONTINUED: Sorry, Russia got 3 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze so that tops everyone.

Korea got 2 golds, 1 bronze so i guess is better than 2 silver, 2 bronzes but depends which way you weigh it (medal color vs count).

Japan had 2 silver, 2 bronze.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo_at_the_2012_Summer_Olympics

I woldnt say "yeah for Japan" obviously with zero golds but i dont think its a travesty and not sure if that really shows they have really fallen. Doesnt it take about 2-3 bad showings at consecutive worlds/olympics as a whole to see a consistent trend in intl judo?
8/9/12 5:10 PM
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Wasa-B
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BZ: what exactly transpired in the Anai match?
8/9/12 5:36 PM
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Wasa-B
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Chocolate Shatner - UPDATE:

Seems like my fears are being justified. After the defeat, many journalists/pundits/sports writers are getting their few yen in, getting an article out of dissecting why the Japanese men did so poorly.

And, what reasons did they come up with?

The point system. Specifically, the IJF competition point schedule, which the journalists and some of the players blamed for them being tired come the Olympics.

However, the Daily Yomiuri (the English version of the Japanese Yomiuri Shimbun) had a clue that I think is being lost in the whole hubub. Mika Sugimoto, the women's over 78 kilo player, lamented the strength (another excuse tossed out with regularity) and preparation of other countries' players. "We practiced hard," she said. "I didn't think anyone practiced harder than us."

Mika-chan, it wasn't that you practiced less or that they practiced harder. The problem lies in that you practiced the same thing, over and over, and your coaches never made you adjust your game (I'm not meaning just you, but the entire Olympic team) to what you would see.

It would be similar to in the NFL, if a team decides that they will practice the same defense and offense used by the Philadelphia Eagles of the 1950's. It doesn't matter if the players are practicing harder than any other team in the NFL, the schemes and strategies used in the 1950's are not going to win in the modern NFL.

Using the same exact judo game that was used in the 1990's is not going to win consistently today. Not being strong enough because your coaches don't train you correctly is not going to help you win consistently.

But, it looks like at least in the short term, Japan is going to make excuses instead of actually making changes.

CS, i neither train nor compete anymore and dont really follow outside world/olympic results so im curious as much as anything or eager to catch up and i would hardly argue against making any changes necessary to evolve against intl comp (something japan in general can be weak in when it comes to something they are traditionally strong in....well, same goes for any country actually)and i agree that no golds is a disappointment but lets look at the last 4 years including last Olympics:

(men's only, the japanese women i believe have been in their own class for a while up to this olympics, havent they?)

2012 - 2 silver 2 bronze (medalling 4/7)

2011 - 2 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze (5/7)
Top showing between countries

2010 - 4 gold, 1 silver, 5 bronze (10 medals for 8 weights with gold/bronze in 73kg, gold/2 bronze in open weight - this year incl open weight plus multiple reps per class for Japan, is this no longer in effect or for worlds only? This was also held in Japan)
Top showing between countries

2009 - 1 silver, 1 bronze (2/7)
Korea, Russia had better showings

2008 - 2 golds
Korea had 1 gold, 2 silver

So in 2009, they had the worst showing between 2008 - 2012 and with the Japanese men dominating 2010, 2011.

So im not sure if this year's showing for the men is clearly indicative of a consistent descent for the Japanese men (or Japanese judo as a whole....again, im not saying for a sec they dont need to adap etc).

2012 is also the only year with in the last 5 world/olympics (from 2008) that Japan failed to win the overall medal count (men/women combined) though again, they tied for most for most medals with 7 with France.

So i still dont te fall from grace just yet, ya?
8/9/12 6:01 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Edited: 08/10/12 6:20 PM
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 belowzero,

Can you please explain why the article is "pure trash"?  I've read it a few times.  I don't get where you are coming from.

The authors are using multiple anonymous sources from the Japanese Team.  In addition, they are using as another expert source, a current collegiate coach who took a bronze in the Olympics.

They historically referenced Ishii's showing and quoted him from that period.  The rule changes are factually stated.

They speculated that the point system might have contributed to Japan's poor showing. They offered their reasoning for it. While disagreement with that speculation is fair, you don't seem to offer any reason why they are wrong in that supposition.

As for your own commentary, you even offer an admission that several of the Japanese judoka's were not up to the task from the get-go.   I count 5 out of the 7 in your commentary. That just begs the question: "Why not?".  

Yes, the Olympics get more competitive every year.  Even so, the Japanese have been able to achieve multiple golds (Seoul excluded)  and a minimum of 4 medals for the Men's division since 1964 except for 2008, when they  won 2 Gold.

Also, there isn't anyone I know who would  say 2 silver and 2 bronze medals is no worse than 1 gold and 3 bronze medals.  It is a lot worse.   

The USA has been able to win a minimum of a bronze medal in multiple olympics. A USA athlete won a bronze in 1964 at the very first event.  The USA athletes have medaled in every single Olympics since 1976 where they participated. They've only won 1 gold medal in the 48 year period. 

    
8/11/12 9:05 AM
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HayemakeredByHaye
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ttt
8/13/12 1:24 AM
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Wasa-B
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Irony: Japanese guys win gold in both wrestling and boxing but not judo. First wrestling gold in 24 years with Yonemitsu.
8/13/12 8:55 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Wasa-B - Irony: Japanese guys win gold in both wrestling and boxing but not judo. First wrestling gold in 24 years with Yonemitsu.

and don't forget the utter domination by the ladies on the mat. Three golds, with Saori Yoshida winning her third straight gold at 55 kilograms without giving up a single fucking point the entire time.

I gotta say it. Saori Yoshida is the female Karelin, the female amateur Nature Boy, the female wrestling Ali. The greatest of all time.

Now, if only Japanese scientists can figure out that pesky DNA splicing, they can splice Yoshida and Yawara-chan. Hell ensues.
8/13/12 7:53 PM
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judom
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Sure, Yoshida won gold medals, but in general women's wrestling is popular in very few countries, so I definitely would not equate that to Karelin or Saitiev.
8/13/12 8:37 PM
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Wasa-B
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Yeah, i think thats very true, judom so while still a great achieve for Yoshida, Ryoko Tamura's reign in women's judo is that much more impressive and also that Uzbek HW that won his 3rd medal?

Btw, what happened to Korea in wrestling? I know they were never a power house and a Korean did win a gold in Greco but are they any presence at all any more in wrestling or were they ever? What about Cuba? They def were before, yeah? Not so much anymore? I dont think dominate boxing as much as they used to either.

We should do an Olympic combat sport thread. Surprised that Koreans no longer dominate TKD (at all) and how they only have 4 divs in mens at the Olympics but have 8 at the worlds. That sounds stupid, their HW div in the Olympics is +80kg, lol!
8/13/12 8:56 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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judom - Sure, Yoshida won gold medals, but in general women's wrestling is popular in very few countries, so I definitely would not equate that to Karelin or Saitiev.

I understand that she doesn't have the same level of history or competition as Karelin, but for anyone to win 3 straight golds in a combat sport, and to dominate during that third like she did, is amazing.

And of course, picking up her Dad on her shoulders afterwards (Dad is significantly larger) like he was a child and running around the mat did show her in Beast Mode a bit.
8/23/12 1:59 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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CS, you just got the Jack Slack award for that analysis.
8/23/12 5:09 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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I would like to thank the Academy for my award, along with all the little people out there. You like me, you really like me!
9/2/12 8:25 AM
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nogidavid
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 how do you guys think the tsunami affected japanese sporting performance?
9/2/12 5:16 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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nogidavid -  how do you guys think the tsunami affected japanese sporting performance?

totally overplayed by media for the human interest story. I live here, man. The freakin' tsunami was over a year ago. It disrupted shit in most areas for, at most, a month. In the Tohoku region (which is very lightly populated, even before the quake) there is still shit going down, but the main players don't live in Fukushima. They live and train in Osaka, Tokyo, Nagoya, etc. Of those, Tokyo had some disruption due to the quake itself, but quickly got shit sorted back out. Other than psychological stress which has again mostly dissipated, the quake had no effect.
9/2/12 11:23 PM
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nogidavid
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Chocolate Shatner - 
nogidavid -  how do you guys think the tsunami affected japanese sporting performance?

totally overplayed by media for the human interest story. I live here, man. The freakin' tsunami was over a year ago. It disrupted shit in most areas for, at most, a month. In the Tohoku region (which is very lightly populated, even before the quake) there is still shit going down, but the main players don't live in Fukushima. They live and train in Osaka, Tokyo, Nagoya, etc. Of those, Tokyo had some disruption due to the quake itself, but quickly got shit sorted back out. Other than psychological stress which has again mostly dissipated, the quake had no effect.

  cool, thanks man. nice to hear from someone out there :)
9/4/12 9:58 PM
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Wasa-B
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Chocolate Shatner - 
nogidavid -  how do you guys think the tsunami affected japanese sporting performance?

totally overplayed by media for the human interest story. I live here, man. The freakin' tsunami was over a year ago. It disrupted shit in most areas for, at most, a month. In the Tohoku region (which is very lightly populated, even before the quake) there is still shit going down, but the main players don't live in Fukushima. They live and train in Osaka, Tokyo, Nagoya, etc. Of those, Tokyo had some disruption due to the quake itself, but quickly got shit sorted back out. Other than psychological stress which has again mostly dissipated, the quake had no effect.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-JHUzC5K2JVw/T3JhvXdYWBI/AAAAAAAAE8s/hPqXhFpIdVQ/s1600/Women%27s%2BSoccer%2BJapan.jpg
9/8/12 8:47 AM
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kilemark
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Being relatively new to Judo, can anyone provide some examples of how Russia and other countries changed their grips and attacked the legs which defeated the Japanese and forced the IJF to change the rules? Also, what did those countries do to adjust after the rule change? Anything like pics, video, or commentary would be helpful. Thanks. Phone Post
9/8/12 12:15 PM
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judoblackbelt
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The rule change was to diffentiate judo from wrestling. Judo is now more throwing vs leg grabbing from initial attacks. But they left in leg grabs under 3 circunstances:
1) you attack with a throw and follow-up with a second throw that attacks the opponents leg(s).
2) your opponent attacks and you counter his attack with a leg(s) grab throw.
3) you opponent grabs you with both his hands on the same side of your body you can then grab the legs as an initai attack.
A good match is the 73K final of the Olympics with many counter leg grabs. Just past this link into your broser. http://www.judo.com.gr/2012/07/judo-olympic-games-london-2012-final-73kg-isaev-mansur-rus-nakaya-riki-jpn/#.UEtewUk3zlE. If I run across other video's I willpost them for you.

9/8/12 12:54 PM
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kilemark
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^thanks Phone Post
9/9/12 6:10 PM
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domernd1
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I feel extremely informed Phone Post

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