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Boxing UnderGround >> Lets fix boxing


8/2/12 3:58 PM
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buddie
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What would you do to fix pro and amateur boxing? Change the scoring system? Implement a new regulating body? I have a lot of opinions, but what would you do to fix it.

Someone once said: I love boxing, but I hate the politics.
8/2/12 10:35 PM
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PoundforPound
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Getting rid of the headgear and going to a 10 point must system will help the amateurs, and they're going to do that for 2014.

For the pros there has to be only one world champion per weight class. But there is zero chance of the WBC/WBA/IBF/WBO giving up all the sanctioning fees they get though.

Judges in both need to be better trained and educated on how to score a fight. And there should be some kind of system in place to punish the ones who are habitually incompetent.
8/3/12 12:29 AM
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martinburke
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• go back to the eight classic divisions

• weigh-ins the morning of the fight

• championship fights go back to 15 rounds

Honestly, it can't be fixed. There are far too many healthier ways to make a buck as an athlete nowadays. There will never again be the participation level that there once was.
8/3/12 4:03 AM
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Chappie
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The sport could be substantially improved by simply placing people with some degree of intelligence and integrity in positions of power within the sport. At the amateur level, USA Boxing needs to simply go away and be replaced by a new organization. Decades of Nero like levels of incompetency have led to the system which we have sadly seen in concentrated effect at this Olympics (coaches appointed a few weeks before the Olympics who are not allowed to corner fighter; boxers with little to no international experience resulting in poor ranking and shitty tournament seeds; a four week long pre-Olympic training camp instead of a four month long camp like most other countries; etc.)

Secondly, whatever entity replaces USA Boxing needs to pick the boxers for the Olympic team as early as permissibly allowed in order to get the fighters sharp and in condition and provide them with as much international experience as possible.

Third, the US needs to hire a top notch coach (Kenny Adams;Kenny Weldon; Al Mitchell; bring in Gator, I don't care) and stick with them for a while (unless it does turn out to be Gator). Some degree of continuity would benefit the program by allowing coaches to fully implement their respective systems and truly evaluate what works and what doesn't.

Forth, is simply more funding. If the US team is going to be able to put on truly world class camps for four months instead of the four week program that we ran this year and still have access to a travel budget sufficient to allow the fighters to get sufficient international experience more is simply go to be needed. Perhaps a small tax can be levied on professional fights and directed back into the US amateur program.

Contrary to most people's opinions, the judges and referees in the sport are usually trained to perform their respective responsibility, but some simply innately suck at what they do. Unfortunately, under the system as it is now, those people are allow to referee and judgment fights for decades while damaging the both the credibility and likely sustainability of the sport. Entities like the NSAC need to start removing referee and judges like Patricia Jarman, Cecil People and Joe Cortez from the sport and create a standardized system of review to evaluate and remove poor officials (someone in Texas needs to simply remove the entire Cole family, both Dickie and Lawrence from the sport and prohibit them from even speaking about boxing in the future).
8/3/12 4:34 AM
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Spartan79
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PoundforPound - Getting rid of the headgear and going to a 10 point must system will help the amateurs, and they're going to do that for 2014.

For the pros there has to be only one world champion per weight class. But there is zero chance of the WBC/WBA/IBF/WBO giving up all the sanctioning fees they get though.

Judges in both need to be better trained and educated on how to score a fight. And there should be some kind of system in place to punish the ones who are habitually incompetent.
This is a good start! Phone Post
8/3/12 11:02 AM
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martinburke
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Chappie -  bring in Gator, I don't care


mY fuRstm Ove WoullddB et o HirE mMaDouT hiam a s Ass t. Cooch
8/3/12 11:13 AM
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martinburke
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Chappie -  Entities like the NSAC need to start removing referee and judges like Patricia Jarman, Cecil People and Joe Cortez from the sport and create a standardized system of review to evaluate and remove poor officials (someone in Texas needs to simply remove the entire Cole family, both Dickie and Lawrence from the sport and prohibit them from even speaking about boxing in the future).



Chappie...I think I love you.





only slightly homo
8/3/12 10:06 PM
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Chappie
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Lol, if Gator is ever subjected to a deposition or forced to give testimony somewhere, I think that you should absolutely translate for the court. The sad thing about this conversational topic is that the answers are easy, but yet none of the changes will sadly get made. The same nepotism and cronyism will go on as it has for the last several decades.

Regarding fairness and transparency in professional boxing, I personally have always got along with Keith Kitzer and I am appreciative of his responsiveness and the manner in which he has always made himself available for inquiries from myself and others regarding issues associated with MMA and boxing (I have personally talked to Kitzer numerous times when drafting contracts and what not for fighters over the years and he has always been very helpful and knowledgeable in the responses that he has provided), but I still remember his profound hesitation a few years back when I had him on a shitty little boxing program that I hosted in Vegas and asked him on air why the NSAC did not implement a policy prohibiting employees from going to work for promotional entities who came before them like other governmental agencies do and establish a formal review process to evaluate bad decisions issued in both sports and remove bad judges from their respective positions when a decision that they issue cannot be rationally defended.


8/7/12 10:27 AM
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hackett
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PoundforPound - Getting rid of the headgear and going to a 10 point must system will help the amateurs, and they're going to do that for 2014.

For the pros there has to be only one world champion per weight class. But there is zero chance of the WBC/WBA/IBF/WBO giving up all the sanctioning fees they get though.

Judges in both need to be better trained and educated on how to score a fight. And there should be some kind of system in place to punish the ones who are habitually incompetent.


Ten point must system is actually more subjective than the current system. I like headgear for am boxing. A bit more safety; if they want to go pro its a different standard and that's reasonable.

I'm predicting next Olympics will be a step down, worst of both worlds, if they go through with those changes. Watch the excuses and sour grapes for our poor performance.
8/7/12 12:10 PM
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buddie
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1. Ten point must is more subjective in theory, but unfortunately the scoring system now has never reflected reality in scoring. Anyone can watch a fight and see numerous clean shots that are not scored.

2. Headgear has been proven not to improve safety in terms of head injury. They use bigger gloves and they fight shorter fights. In some ways the headgear impairs vision allowing fighters to take more shots they can't see.

3. I agree the pro game is different and should be judged differently. I still think you should count additional points for a knockdown and a standing 8. For example a clean, scoring blow = 1 point. A blow forcing a standing 8 = 2 points. A knockdown =3 points. Because this isn't "10 point must" boxing 3 points doesn't really change the complection of a fight but it could add some drama to a fight where one guy is behind a few points, especially when they judges don't count 1/3 of the blows scored traditionally.

4. Let guys wear their team colors, jersey's should be optional. I'm not sure what safety purpose the jersey really serves (I still got rope burns on my back fighting in a jersey in my early fights.) Covering fighters up only decreases interest in them.
8/7/12 1:43 PM
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hackett
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1 - Anyone can see a bout and watch the ten point must system abused too. Happens every day. It'll happen next Olympics if they throw the baby out with the bathwater and we'll hear new excuses. We should fix the system in place instead, and more importantly fix our program.

2 - Studies show headgear helps avoid injury. Long term risks remain, yes.

3 - I might be open to that, it doesn't really change the basic "out-landing" premise all that much either.

4 - I always just liked the aesthetic of the jersey, adds to the uniformity, things just appear more in control. Same reason I liked that the matches are specifically called "bouts" instead of fights, I guess. It's superficial and not that big a deal to me one way or another, but I like that clear boundry between amatuer & pro.
8/8/12 3:07 AM
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Chappie
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I am shocked that they have decided to get rid of headgear, I personally always hated headgear and felt that I got hit more when it was on, but the purpose of amateur boxing is designed to provide a safe environment to learn and compete in boxing without the injury risks associated with the professional version of the sport. It will be interesting to see how this whole situation plays out. I would imagine that amatuer boxing might play more favorably to prospective fans without the headgear on, but there is going to be a huge backlash against the sport the first time that someone gets hurt. Phone Post
8/8/12 8:11 AM
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HULC
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hackett - 1 - Anyone can see a bout and watch the ten point must system abused too. Happens every day. It'll happen next Olympics if they throw the baby out with the bathwater and we'll hear new excuses. We should fix the system in place instead, and more importantly fix our program.

2 - Studies show headgear helps avoid injury. Long term risks remain, yes.

3 - I might be open to that, it doesn't really change the basic "out-landing" premise all that much either.

4 - I always just liked the aesthetic of the jersey, adds to the uniformity, things just appear more in control. Same reason I liked that the matches are specifically called "bouts" instead of fights, I guess. It's superficial and not that big a deal to me one way or another, but I like that clear boundry between amatuer & pro.


1) The scoring system in amateur boxing has been singled out by many, many people as being one of the worst changes in the history of the sport. The 10 point must system certainly isn't perfect, but you are literally the only person i have ever heard say that the amateur scoring system is better.

2) What studies? Headguards do nothing to protect boxers from brain trauma, and may even increase their risk of it.

3) I think the amateur idea that simply counting punches will tell you who is winning is deeply flawed.

4) I actually like the jerseys too. In the Olympics you're representing a country and not just yourself, and the jerseys help reflect that.
8/8/12 12:56 PM
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buddie
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^ (re:#4) Except that you don't wear your country colors. If they want to keep the jersey, fine, but allow the fighters to wear their country's colors. If they want to keep it somewhat uniform make it like ball sports and have a "home" and "away" type uniform if you are the lower seed you wear your "away" jersey. That would make it a lot more interesting to look at.
8/8/12 10:15 PM
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buddie
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I'm going to get all preachy her friends, but I'm very serious about this: If you are passionate about the sport of boxing, you need to take this dismal year as a call to spread the word about the sport of boxing. So many of us dismissed it when people said "boxing is dead, boxing's time has come and gone. Etc."

Boxing changed me from a boy who was going down the wrong road in life into a man who learned the value of hard work, honesty and dedication. The old knowledge is leaving and if you don't pass it on, the knowledge of the sport will be lost. Teach boxing, take your time to speak highly of the sport.

Volunteer at your local club to help out. There are so many kids out there who would have been lost without this sport. Help this sport grow again.
8/8/12 10:15 PM
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buddie
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I'm going to get all preachy her friends, but I'm very serious about this: If you are passionate about the sport of boxing, you need to take this dismal year as a call to spread the word about the sport of boxing. So many of us dismissed it when people said "boxing is dead, boxing's time has come and gone. Etc."

Boxing changed me from a boy who was going down the wrong road in life into a man who learned the value of hard work, honesty and dedication. The old knowledge is leaving and if you don't pass it on, the knowledge of the sport will be lost. Teach boxing, take your time to speak highly of the sport.

Volunteer at your local club to help out. There are so many kids out there who would have been lost without this sport. Help this sport grow again.
8/8/12 10:53 PM
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I like the headgear and jerseys because they 'look' safer, and perception is important. That said, guys should be able to wear their nation's colors. Each country can design its uniforms so they aren't the same as the other countries.

The ten point must system isn't perfect, but there isn't any feasible method of eliminating controversial decisions.
8/9/12 7:11 AM
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hackett
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There probably is no system with a "feasible method of eliminating controversial decisions."

That said...
8/9/12 7:14 AM
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hackett
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HULC - 
hackett - 1 - Anyone can see a bout and watch the ten point must system abused too. Happens every day. It'll happen next Olympics if they throw the baby out with the bathwater and we'll hear new excuses. We should fix the system in place instead, and more importantly fix our program.

2 - Studies show headgear helps avoid injury. Long term risks remain, yes.

3 - I might be open to that, it doesn't really change the basic "out-landing" premise all that much either.

4 - I always just liked the aesthetic of the jersey, adds to the uniformity, things just appear more in control. Same reason I liked that the matches are specifically called "bouts" instead of fights, I guess. It's superficial and not that big a deal to me one way or another, but I like that clear boundry between amatuer & pro.


1) The scoring system in amateur boxing has been singled out by many, many people as being one of the worst changes in the history of the sport. The 10 point must system certainly isn't perfect, but you are literally the only person i have ever heard say that the amateur scoring system is better.

2) What studies? Headguards do nothing to protect boxers from brain trauma, and may even increase their risk of it.

3) I think the amateur idea that simply counting punches will tell you who is winning is deeply flawed.

4) I actually like the jerseys too. In the Olympics you're representing a country and not just yourself, and the jerseys help reflect that.

1) Many, many people have sour grapes about our poor performance at the Olympics. They don't like what they don't understand and refuse to adapt. I get into it a little on the "History of Olympic boxing" thread.

I like it for the amatuer system, not pro's BTW. Chappie puts this well: "the purpose of amateur boxing is designed to provide a safe environment to learn and compete in boxing without the injury risks associated with the professional version of the sport." This is easier to accomplish when scoring blows are the stated objective. Am boxing has a great safety record and as a fan I'm proud of that. People want to go pro, they get a different standard. Cool. Some styles are going to be a lot better for one method of scoring than another, and that's okay too. In fact it's probably unavoidable.

2) All the studies on headgear usage which I can find seem pretty consistently in agreement with what I wrote up there.

Effectiveness of Boxing Headgear in Limiting Injury (www.asbweb.org/conferences/2006/pdfs/242.pdf) : "Based on the current effort, the currently designed headgear and gloves are effective in reducing the risk of injury."

Journal of Neurosurgery had one too. "These results show that gloves and headgear can offer some meaningful protection, providing that fighters - especially young fighters - should wear headgear whenever possible," said Dr Edward Benzel, Chair of Cleveland Clinic's Deparment of Neurological Surgery.

http://www.scienceomega.com/article/168/a-safer-combination-for-boxers

3) I disagree and find it serves its purpose well. You have to adapt to it, and it needs to be officiated correctly (and we aren't 100% there yet) but for the most part it fosters basic boxing skill well and is less subjective.

4) That's a good point too.
8/10/12 9:10 AM
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hackett
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buddie - I'm going to get all preachy her friends, but I'm very serious about this: If you are passionate about the sport of boxing, you need to take this dismal year as a call to spread the word about the sport of boxing. So many of us dismissed it when people said "boxing is dead, boxing's time has come and gone. Etc."

Boxing changed me from a boy who was going down the wrong road in life into a man who learned the value of hard work, honesty and dedication. The old knowledge is leaving and if you don't pass it on, the knowledge of the sport will be lost. Teach boxing, take your time to speak highly of the sport.

Volunteer at your local club to help out. There are so many kids out there who would have been lost without this sport. Help this sport grow again.

This is what's really important. We can all agree on it.

Sorry if I come off argumentative guys. I really appreciate everyone's opinions.
8/10/12 9:48 PM
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pharochuck
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buddie - I'm going to get all preachy her friends, but I'm very serious about this: If you are passionate about the sport of boxing, you need to take this dismal year as a call to spread the word about the sport of boxing. So many of us dismissed it when people said "boxing is dead, boxing's time has come and gone. Etc."

Boxing changed me from a boy who was going down the wrong road in life into a man who learned the value of hard work, honesty and dedication. The old knowledge is leaving and if you don't pass it on, the knowledge of the sport will be lost. Teach boxing, take your time to speak highly of the sport.

Volunteer at your local club to help out. There are so many kids out there who would have been lost without this sport. Help this sport grow again.

  thats a great idea. my 16 year old has been making noise that he wants to put on the gloves. if he's serious i'm going to get active with the local club
8/11/12 1:31 PM
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buddie
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pharochuck - 
buddie - I'm going to get all preachy her friends, but I'm very serious about this: If you are passionate about the sport of boxing, you need to take this dismal year as a call to spread the word about the sport of boxing. So many of us dismissed it when people said "boxing is dead, boxing's time has come and gone. Etc."

Boxing changed me from a boy who was going down the wrong road in life into a man who learned the value of hard work, honesty and dedication. The old knowledge is leaving and if you don't pass it on, the knowledge of the sport will be lost. Teach boxing, take your time to speak highly of the sport.

Volunteer at your local club to help out. There are so many kids out there who would have been lost without this sport. Help this sport grow again.

  thats a great idea. my 16 year old has been making noise that he wants to put on the gloves. if he's serious i'm going to get active with the local club

If boxing fans could be as passionate now about the sport as most of us were about MMA when it was a fledgling sport, great things will undoubtedly happen. MMA became what it is because of the passion its fans had for it. Boxing needs a little of that. So, to steal a phrase: "Support the sport" get your kid to the gym, & go support your local amateur events!
8/12/12 3:46 PM
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PoundforPound
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hackett - Ten point must system is actually more subjective than the current system. I like headgear for am boxing. A bit more safety; if they want to go pro its a different standard and that's reasonable.

I'm predicting next Olympics will be a step down, worst of both worlds, if they go through with those changes. Watch the excuses and sour grapes for our poor performance.


The ten point must system is subjective but at least it takes more into account than the current joke of a system, which only counts touches and completely ignores things like ring generalship and defense.

Headgear wasn't used in the Olympics until 1984 and it never seemed to hurt the sport any before then (people like Laszlo Papp, Cassius Clay, George Foreman, and Sugar Ray Leonard all won their gold medals without headgear.)

The boxing culture in the US is geared more towards a pro style so these changes should benefit us. Mexico too might be helped by this: they are dominant in pro boxing but didn't bring home any Olympic medals this year either. That to me just shows how fundamentally removed from "real" boxing the amateur setup has been.

But if we STILL end up sucking you won't hear any excuses from me. Lord knows that USA Boxing needs to make many changes, from the way they are organized to the way they coach the athletes and test them (or don't test them) against international competition.
8/12/12 4:20 PM
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buddie
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PoundforPound - 
hackett - Ten point must system is actually more subjective than the current system. I like headgear for am boxing. A bit more safety; if they want to go pro its a different standard and that's reasonable.

I'm predicting next Olympics will be a step down, worst of both worlds, if they go through with those changes. Watch the excuses and sour grapes for our poor performance.


The ten point must system is subjective but at least it takes more into account than the current joke of a system, which only counts touches and completely ignores things like ring generalship and defense.

Headgear wasn't used in the Olympics until 1984 and it never seemed to hurt the sport any before then (people like Laszlo Papp, Cassius Clay, George Foreman, and Sugar Ray Leonard all won their gold medals without headgear.)

The boxing culture in the US is geared more towards a pro style so these changes should benefit us. Mexico too might be helped by this: they are dominant in pro boxing but didn't bring home any Olympic medals this year either. That to me just shows how fundamentally removed from "real" boxing the amateur setup has been.

But if we STILL end up sucking you won't hear any excuses from me. Lord knows that USA Boxing needs to make many changes, from the way they are organized to the way they coach the athletes and test them (or don't test them) against international competition.

Bingo. How many times have you seen a pro fight where one guy looks completely fucked at the end but is the clear winner? Miguel Angel-Gonzalez v De la Hoya comes to mind. What about seeing a fight were the guy was the loser in compubox # but absolutely won the fight, it does happen. You can't score fights like you score other sports, but most of the time we know who won and who lost. The ten point must isn't the problem, corrupt judges are the issue.
8/13/12 7:39 AM
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HULC
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hackett - 
HULC - 
hackett - 1 - Anyone can see a bout and watch the ten point must system abused too. Happens every day. It'll happen next Olympics if they throw the baby out with the bathwater and we'll hear new excuses. We should fix the system in place instead, and more importantly fix our program.

2 - Studies show headgear helps avoid injury. Long term risks remain, yes.

3 - I might be open to that, it doesn't really change the basic "out-landing" premise all that much either.

4 - I always just liked the aesthetic of the jersey, adds to the uniformity, things just appear more in control. Same reason I liked that the matches are specifically called "bouts" instead of fights, I guess. It's superficial and not that big a deal to me one way or another, but I like that clear boundry between amatuer & pro.


1) The scoring system in amateur boxing has been singled out by many, many people as being one of the worst changes in the history of the sport. The 10 point must system certainly isn't perfect, but you are literally the only person i have ever heard say that the amateur scoring system is better.

2) What studies? Headguards do nothing to protect boxers from brain trauma, and may even increase their risk of it.

3) I think the amateur idea that simply counting punches will tell you who is winning is deeply flawed.

4) I actually like the jerseys too. In the Olympics you're representing a country and not just yourself, and the jerseys help reflect that.

1) Many, many people have sour grapes about our poor performance at the Olympics. They don't like what they don't understand and refuse to adapt. I get into it a little on the "History of Olympic boxing" thread.

I like it for the amatuer system, not pro's BTW. Chappie puts this well: "the purpose of amateur boxing is designed to provide a safe environment to learn and compete in boxing without the injury risks associated with the professional version of the sport." This is easier to accomplish when scoring blows are the stated objective. Am boxing has a great safety record and as a fan I'm proud of that. People want to go pro, they get a different standard. Cool. Some styles are going to be a lot better for one method of scoring than another, and that's okay too. In fact it's probably unavoidable.

2) All the studies on headgear usage which I can find seem pretty consistently in agreement with what I wrote up there.

Effectiveness of Boxing Headgear in Limiting Injury (www.asbweb.org/conferences/2006/pdfs/242.pdf) : "Based on the current effort, the currently designed headgear and gloves are effective in reducing the risk of injury."

Journal of Neurosurgery had one too. "These results show that gloves and headgear can offer some meaningful protection, providing that fighters - especially young fighters - should wear headgear whenever possible," said Dr Edward Benzel, Chair of Cleveland Clinic's Deparment of Neurological Surgery.

http://www.scienceomega.com/article/168/a-safer-combination-for-boxers

3) I disagree and find it serves its purpose well. You have to adapt to it, and it needs to be officiated correctly (and we aren't 100% there yet) but for the most part it fosters basic boxing skill well and is less subjective.

4) That's a good point too.

1) I'm British, and we've done brilliantly under the modern Olympic rules. To insinuate my opinion is biased because of the US's performance is just silly.

I travel internationally a lot and i find very, very few people who prefer the amateurs over the pros, and so far i've found nobody (apart from you) who prefers the amateur scoring system.

2) Cheers, i'll have a read of those when i get some more time.

3) In your opinion. /the general consensus amongst boxing fans is that the system is terrible.

4) Cool. :)

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