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8/9/12 3:40 PM
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zealot66
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 I dont think Rush Limbaugh has stated that he is spouting evangelical thought or christian thought. He is constantly spouting conservatism. William F Buckley was pushing conservatism. Even the 'revered' George Will is an atheist and is pushing conservatism. I don't know where you are getting your thought process from. It happens to be that conservatism and Christianity share some of the same principles but imo, if you look closely, they definately diverge on alot of points. Its like the presidential election. You get a choice between two people. One or the other. Thats it. On talk radio or really in politics, you get two to three choices. Conservatism, liberalism or libertarianism. In the Rev's case, he has something radically different than all of the above. 

I have noticed that people who want to declare themselves above the fray especially in politics, always distance themselves from Sean hannity, Rush L, or any other over the top entertainer/ opinionist. In fact, I'm not sure what your point is at this juncture? 

All of the tests I have taken to determine my political beliefs put me at just right of center. Which I think is accurate. 

Another thing that kills me is that even the most liberal people live conservative values and principles in their own lives. You likely live out conservative principles daily and don't even realize them.
8/9/12 7:06 PM
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Grakman
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To echo what zealot has said, most of the people where I live are decidedly conservative on most of the 'hot button' topics - they are pro-life, pro-gun, pro-marriage, pro-military - yet the consistently vote Democratic, on both the local and national level. I realize that being a Democrat doesn't mean that one can't hold the 'conservative' positions above, but it is out of lock step with the national Democratic platform in most cases.

And as we all know, both sides believe their view of Christianity to be the correct one.
8/9/12 7:06 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 """You likely live out conservative principles daily and don't even realize them."""

I once did. For over a decade.

I now live by "kingdom principles".


Luke 4:16-21


16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, 
    because he has anointed me
    to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
    and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19     to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f]
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

I was once VERY conservative. I made Rush look liberal. I moved more center. Prior to that I was very liberal. After some breakthroughs in common sense I again moved more center.

Now I align my position (by Grace) with kingdom ethics as I feel led. Not by whims, moment by moment. But on solid ground as the understanding is given to me.
8/9/12 9:27 PM
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Grakman
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Demitrius, what are the 'kingdom principles' by which you live now? What does that mean in practical terms on a day to day to day basis?

I don't understand your last paragraph, can you explain further?
8/10/12 11:49 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Will respond soon..
8/10/12 6:21 PM
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zealot66
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This should be interesting. I say that not in a sarcastic way but in a way that will see if there is really much difference. 
8/10/12 11:00 PM
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DyingBreed
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"Now I align my position (by Grace) with kingdom ethics as I feel led. Not by whims, moment by moment. But on solid ground as the understanding is given to me."


Make perfect sense, and is the perfect (mature/complete) path. It is beautifully complex in it's simplicity. We no longer have to do anything, just let him do the work FOR us through our yielded wills.


This is an example of being led by the spirit that was given to us as sort of a down payment of our destiny. The spirit guides us moment by moment if we let him to show Jesus to this dying hungry world.


God wants perfect willing relationship with us, and has since the beginning. It is up to US on how close we walk with him, and our progression can be slow and gradual, or we can shoot upward and forward and great speed as we stay plugged in to his will, keeping our eyes on him and what matters most to him...negating the failures and obstacles quickly so as to not get stuck, stand still, or go backwards Phone Post
8/11/12 10:11 AM
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zealot66
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 ok, to further refine my point and to get to the point, what are you doing now different than you did then. What evil conservative principles have you quit in light of kingdom principles.
8/11/12 10:11 AM
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zealot66
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 ok, to further refine my point and to get to the point, what are you doing now different than you did then. What evil conservative principles have you quit in light of kingdom principles.
8/11/12 5:16 PM
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Grakman
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I don't mean to come across as being deliberately obstinate or an asshole, but honestly I don't know what either of you (DyingBreed or Demitrius) are trying to say. There is a lot of theological or spiritual language in your posts but there isn't much to go on for a person to know what you mean in practical terms, how you live this out on a daily basis.

What does it look like if a person is being led by the Spirit, not on a whim but as you feel led? What does it mean to let the Spirit guide us to this hungry world Jesus? What does it mean to have to 'do nothing' but yield our wills to God? How does one know if they are doing this, and how will anyone else know?
8/11/12 5:25 PM
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zealot66
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 I agree with you Grakman, I am persitent in questioning them because it is all vague as if you are being led into a  pyramid scheme. If you do such and such you will reap X benefits only to find out that when you move up the ladder you are only repeating and recruiting people to move up like you did and there is no actual product or transactions going on, just the 'moving up' to a new level but its presented as a mystery rather than actual practical examples.
8/11/12 9:31 PM
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DyingBreed
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Ok, it's like this...

Let's say I start today by praying something like "lord, I want to show you to others and love them and treat them as you would. I want you to live through me, and by faith, I now hand this body and this day over to you to do what you will with it"


I then, in calm constant prayer, listen for his instruction and OBEY. It isn't forced, or hard worked, it is pure grace that he promises. Therefore, HE does his perfect work, without us in the way.


He will direct you to go specific places for certain people to say certain things, or to provide what they may need. It is merely the guiding of the holy spirit...getting ourselves out ofthe way is sometimes the hardest part Phone Post
8/12/12 11:29 AM
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zealot66
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 Im not calling this schizophrenia but my mother is a certified schizophrenic and this is exactly how she described hearing from God. Now, I don't believe you are schizo, with people who are not mentally ill, I believe their subconscious guides them and the things that we want to or think should be, we manipulate circumstances to fit that mold. Have you EVER thought you heard from God only to find out that it was 'the wrong number' and you didn't hear right ?
8/12/12 4:13 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 I'm gonna post something tha Tim Keller wrote in response to the Cick-Fil-A nonsense. I'n my opinion he clearly articulates living out kingdom principles. I COULD NOT SAY IT BETTER.


I get that we live in a morally complex world, but I want us to do better. The Chick-Fil-A drama has been a serie s of disappointments for me on all sides. I’m disappointed at progressives for uncritically circulating misinformation about what Chick-Fil-A’s Don and Dan Cathy actually said and who their foundation actually supports (only several thousand of the alleged $3 million in donations can truly be said to go to “anti-gay” activist groups). I’m disappointed at the mayors of Boston and Chicago for inappropriately responding to something that shouldn’t have merited their attention in a clumsy gesture to a segment of their donor base that turned this into a “free speech” issue for culture warriors to rally around. I’m disappointed at my fellow evangelical Christians for letting themselves get baited into reinforcing the stereotype that all Christians care about is policing the sexuality of other people. I’ve already spoken to several other aspects of this issue. Here’s the question I want to ask my fellow Christians: are we an interest group or a kingdom of disciples and evangelists?

 

As my brother Jonathan Martin at Renovatus Church said way more eloquently than I could, Jesus doesn’t need us to stand up for Him. He didn’t stand up for Himself. He let Himself get crucified, so that He could stand up for sinners like you and me who don’t deserve to be stood up for. Being a disciple of the Crucified One doesn’t mean becoming a sports-fan of the Jesus team, buying up all the right paraphernalia, and jeering the fans of the other sports teams. When we think that the way to be a Christian is to get a bumper sticker or buy a chicken sandwich on a certain day, we are contributing to the redefinition of Christianity as a cultural tribe rather than a kingdom of disciples and evangelists.

 

One of the rawest blog sites out there is called “Stuff Christian Culture Likes.” Formed as a parody of Jon Acuff’s “Stuff Christians Like,” it goes through a humorous but often uncomfortably true list of all the fads of contemporary evangelical Christian culture with its soul patches, “frosted tip” blonde highlight hair, pipes (but not cigarettes), “relevant” skinny man-pastor jeans, etc. When “Christian” turns into just another sub-genre of pop culture, then it’s no different than all the other manufactured “identities” that capitalism sells us like jock, prep, skater, or goth.

 

Christian discipleship doesn’t have anything to do with whether you eat chicken sandwiches or not. When you make Christianity about eating chicken sandwiches and doing other superficial things to demonstrate tribal loyalty, you’re making it not about discipleship. Discipleship is about following a savior who ate and drank with sinners, stood up for them to the religious authorities, and got crucified as a result. The purpose of the spiritual disciplines we undergo as part of our discipleship like prayer, fasting, Bible study, etc, is to forge us into people who deny themselves and exist for the sake of others just like Jesus did. It is to make us a disciplined body that doesn’t easily get baited into stupid arguments by the drama manufacturers in our worldly media.

 

True disciples of Jesus Christ do not whine about the so-called “persecution” that occurs in the circus world of the culture wars. True disciples welcome persecution, if it really happens, as a means of their spiritual refinement. They “rejoice [whenever they are] counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name” (Acts 5:41). As Peter writes, “Rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you” (1 Peter 4:13-14).

 

The more you have been refined into a selfless disciple completely devoted to the advancement of God’s kingdom, the more that every concern you have about your public appearance is shaped by the goal of evangelism. Political gurus talk about the importance of “staying on message.” How spectacularly have evangelicals failed in this regard over the past thirty years in which we sacrificed the focus of our message in order to gain status as a powerful special interest lobby? The message we’re forgetting to mention is that God loves everyone and offers a means through Jesus’ cross for all of us to be made clean and enter into an authentic community that’s unlike all that fake superficial tribal crap that the world has to offer. The best way to “take a stand against sin” is not through publicity stunts that “send a message” to a world of strangers we aren’t interested in knowing or loving, but in the context of our own struggle with discipleship and the journey we share with fellow disciples.

 

So please stop redefining Christianity as a superficial cultural tribe that self-identifies through its particular tastes in facial hair, “relevant” fashion, political stances, and the culture war loyalty test of the week (despite what it says in the picture your friend shared with you on facebook, you really won’t burn in hell if you don’t share it with 10 other people). Instead of all the superficial tribalism, be disciples who take a stand against your own sin. Be evangelists who are acutely attentive to navigating around other peoples’ stumbling blocks and loving them into the truth. Be witnesses of the beauty you have seen in Jesus Christ. Don’t let anyone trick you into being any less.

 
8/12/12 6:41 PM
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Grakman
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Keller is calling for everyone to be disciples and 'witnesses of the beauty they have seen in Jesus Christ.' What does that mean, how is that done on a day to day basis?

He's an author, pastors a big church with 1,000's of members, and he's so progressive he doesn't want to call himself 'evangelical' because he doesn't like the political connotations. Even if he isn't dying his hair (is he naturally bald?), wearing skinny jeans or sporting a soul patch, isn't that just being trendy in another way? Sometimes being a non-conformist is also a form of conforming.
8/12/12 7:46 PM
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zealot66
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 The more you have been refined into a selfless disciple completely devoted to the advancement of God’s kingdom, the more that every concern you have about your public appearance is shaped by the goal of evangelism. Political gurus talk about the importance of “staying on message.” How spectacularly have evangelicals failed in this regard over the past thirty years in which we sacrificed the focus of our message in order to gain status as a powerful special interest lobby? The message we’re forgetting to mention is that God loves everyone and offers a means through Jesus’ cross for all of us to be made clean and enter into an authentic community that’s unlike all that fake superficial tribal crap that the world has to offer. The best way to “take a stand against sin” is not through publicity stunts that “send a message” to a world of strangers we aren’t interested in knowing or loving, but in the context of our own struggle with discipleship and the journey we share with fellow disciples.

 

So please stop redefining Christianity as a superficial cultural tribe that self-identifies through its particular tastes in facial hair, “relevant” fashion, political stances, and the culture war loyalty test of the week (despite what it says in the picture your friend shared with you on facebook, you really won’t burn in hell if you don’t share it with 10 other people). Instead of all the superficial tribalism, be disciples who take a stand against your own sin. Be evangelists who are acutely attentive to navigating around other peoples’ stumbling blocks and loving them into the truth. Be witnesses of the beauty you have seen in Jesus Christ. Don’t let anyone trick you into being any less.

__________________________________________________________________________________
This is some of the most vague language he can use to describe something that is so undefined that it is simply becoming an artform of being Formless. This is what I knew would be the response. You dont have a response as to what 'living the kingdom is' The Rev does define his life and is able to explain his position although we diverge, I can at least understand most of his positions.

It sounds like you guys are at a point where you have fallen into an athony Robbins seminar about 'Living your best life now'. The great funny thing about those motivational speakers and pyramind schemes are that no one defines what IT is. you know, whatever the definition of IT is or what IS IS? you are arguing yourself into such vaguery that IT is whatever you want IS to be. You are spouting off 'Kingdom living' When I believe you or this Fancy Pants minister don't even know what IT IS. You got to do better than this. 

You are stepping away from the original inquiry about your alleged move away from Rush Limbaugh conservatism. Then I challenged you that you actually live a conservative lifestyle but don't want to admit it and have deflected the discussion to Chick Fillet because you dont know what IS IS. In reality you are probably living a definitively conservative lifestyle but want to distance yourself from politics. 

On that point I can understand to a degree. I have decided that I will voice some of my thoughts but I refuse to allow the anxiety that comes with presidental races to interfere with my life. Or work which is directly involved in enforcing policies of this administration. It IS just a job. 

But I don't for one second make pretenses about things like you guys are about this ill defined Kingdom living. I think that it is simply a new evolution of post modernist christianity. The Rev is in a whole league of his own in his Anarchism which we have discussed personally and am appreciative of. I consider him a friend even if we can't always agree. 

 

 
8/12/12 8:22 PM
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Grakman
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I have to agree with Zealot, Keller's remarks are pretty nebulous as far how one lives out the Kingdom life on a day to day basis, or at least the quoted portion of his works is nebulous anyway, I haven't read all of his books. We do know that he believes on shouldn't express their Christianity in the cultural cliches of the day, although in my opinion complaining about that while pastoring a church with 1000s of parishioners and selling numerous books on the subject is somewhat ironic and cliche in itself.

Kudos for bringing it back around to the original question.

I consider the Rev a friend as well and he definitely has a way of telling you exactly what living the kingdom life means according to his views. You aren't left with too many doubts after an in-depth discussion with the Rev about what it all means. By the way, I believe Ridge is also able to articulate what being a Christian means to him and how to live it out on a daily basis in his own faith tradition.

Again, I hope I'm not coming across as obstinate or posting just to be an asshole; I am genuinely interested and am of open mind to know what you mean (both Demitrius and DyingBreed). I'm always willing to learn.
8/13/12 11:18 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 I was trying to give an answer that didn't have me telling everyone about ME. but, it didn't work. So, here is how I attempt to live under kingdom principles.

I am activly engaged in Christian community.

I love my wife and children beyond measure.

I attend church and run the sound system and record the pastors sermons and put them on the webpage. I have done this every Sunday for many years. I do not charge for this. There are other paid positions all around me but I consider this my good and reasonable service.

Each week I attend a few bible studies and sometimes teach at youth group. I demostrate and encourage vulnerability.

I establish real relationships with people at my church. Not "light banter". Really getting to know people of all ages, going to their homes and having them over to mine. 

I know my neighbors on all sides and down the street.

I stop and talk to homeless persons regularly. I give them money. We actually buget for this (and we do not make much at all). I belive the God will superintend the use of the money that is given in his name. I'm not here to do the Spirits work. I see who God forces upon my notice and just try to love them well.

I reflect through prayer and with my wife, children and friends about how I am living the Gospel and loving others regularly. I do flake off on this one here and there thinking I'm doing fine...

"""What evil conservative principles have you quit in light of kingdom principles."""

Example 1. I was very wealthy. I REALLY belived that I was given a blessing from God in that wealth. I was taught by other wealthy Christians that God FAVORED us for some reason. When I married my new wife a few years back WE BOTH SAW that HOARDED WEALTH (not meny in general) was not a blessing but a huge CURSE. All the wealthy Christians who told me God favored them had terrible marriages. They had no relationship with their adult children. They were brining up their minor children under principles of "conditional love". They were divorcing. They showed pathological contempt to the poor. The openly hated homosexuals. They spent their money on themselves. Oh sure. One guy gave a two hundred thousand dollar donation to a charity BUT then he bought himself 8 million dollars worth of property. His property tax alone is more than that one time donation.

We gave that life up.

Example 2. I believed that you COULD NOT be a democrat and be a Christian. Then I was given the clarity that it IS NOT a republican Gospel. The Gospel is not a political agenda.

Example 3. I believed that person who were oppressed by brokeness (alcoholism, addictions etc) probably weren't saved. Now I see everyone and everything is broken. None of us have it right and none of us are healthy. We are all works in progress.

Example 4. I would not associate with homosexuals or let them in my home. I was an ignorant, self righteous asshole.

Example 5. I did not engage with the broken world around me BECIASE I was better then all those people.
"I'm a recovering pharisee".

I could go on and on. But I think you get it. All of this was A GIFT. NONE OF IT was "me getting it". It was all given to me through trials, community, prayer and pain.

8/13/12 12:40 PM
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zealot66
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 True conservatism is equal opportunity for everyone. No one should be descriminated on the typical race, religion, sex, etc. The essence of conservatism is that each man rises or falls on their own merits. And if a man or group rises to success, charity should be done through the church, private organizations, etc. Not the government. 

I think that you do not understand true conservatism. In essence you are living a conservative lifestyle or rather more libertarian by choosing how you distribute your wealth, not the government. If you want to live in a shanty and piss outside, and you are not expecting others to support your lifestyle through forced taxation and you own the landwhere you live, that is conservatism, libertarianism.

Please tell me that you do not believe that the government should be the all mighty resource for people to fall back on ?
8/13/12 2:32 PM
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zealot66
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 I dont know what happened to my second post on Christian Libertarianism. Basically before LBJ's great society, charity and welfare were done by the churches, and people contributing to the down and out. LBJ taxed us permanently to fund welfare. The Republicans heavily opposed the philosophy and it ultimately led to the breakdown of black civilization in America.

You are living a lifestyle that is without regulation by the government or church, making your own choices without being compelled by others, and not forcing others to give as you do. Not under compulsion to give what you earned and give to otherw who DID NOT EARN it. That is your choice. 

You my friend are a Libertarian Conservative. Rush would back you 100 percent.
8/14/12 6:21 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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"""You my friend are a Libertarian Conservative. Rush would back you 100 percent"""

I've only given you a "snapshot" of my walk. So, ya...
8/15/12 1:36 AM
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Grakman
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Demitrius, would you share some specifics on how you gave away your wealth once you had your awakening? I'm interested in hearing about how you chose to give what to whom, stuff like that. Again, not judging, but learning from someone who has 'put their money where their mouth is.'
8/16/12 5:45 PM
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paw
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 for laters......
8/16/12 6:44 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Grakman - Demitrius, would you share some specifics on how you gave away your wealth once you had your awakening? I'm interested in hearing about how you chose to give what to whom, stuff like that. Again, not judging, but learning from someone who has 'put their money where their mouth is.'

  I don't feel right going into that type of detail. Suffice it to say, we live by very modest, Christ dependent means at this point...
8/17/12 1:49 AM
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Ridgeback
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 I think a huge shift takes place when you see your possessions as tied to the temporality of this world and very capable of tying your soul to it as well.  When it comes to "how much should you give away" then I think there will be a fair amount of different takes on that.  I like the "give what you can" approach, which implies levels of sanctity and trust in God and growth as Christians.  I don't feel called to give away the means to feed my children, but I do feel that the more I give the better.  I also think those who gave up all their possessions to follow Christ are "greater in the kingdom."  

This against the very real fact that for a lot of Christians the belief that you are blessed by God to the degree that you are acquiring wealth and possessions is extremely common.  Almost as common as believing you can embrace the platform of either American political party without the slightest contradiction between them or Christ's teachings.

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