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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Best techniques for broken posture?


8/4/12 11:56 AM
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Trichoke7
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I do BJJ and I prefer to do judo rather than jump guard, but I'm really only beginner level judo. 

I was wondering if you guys coul give some tips for beating the bent over, wrestling like posture that most BJJ competitors do. 

I seem to do well with ko ouchi. I've heard uchimata is good for this, and maybe tai otoshi. I found some video on youtube of Koga doing a deep backward lunge to get under bent over posture, but I haven't had a chance to practice this. 

Other thoughts? 
8/4/12 2:57 PM
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judom
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yes, find a good judo club and train seriously.
8/5/12 1:18 PM
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JoshuaResnick
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it isnt the throws, it is the person doing them.... find a decent judo club and show up. that's the only real answer.
8/5/12 1:24 PM
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Trichoke7
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But won't the people at the judo club fight moreso standing up?
8/5/12 10:19 PM
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judoblackbelt
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I will give it a shot but no matter what technique I suggest the skill in doing the the technique takes much practice and it all depends on the opponents weight balance and stance relative to yours. a favorite of mine is I fight with my left foot forward. Opponent usually fights with his right foot forward. I cross grip his lead right sleeve with my right hand and pull it in and across to my right side, reach around and grab his belt with my left hand and do sumi gaeshi throw to my left side. Very safe and hard to counter. For like stances( right lead foot vs right foot lead example). I like kosoto gari, harai goshi combination. Or kouchi gari, ouchi gari combination. I didn't mention any forward throws as these take much skill in getting your opponent to move forward or in a circle to set them.
8/6/12 8:27 AM
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Outkaster
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JoshuaResnick - it isnt the throws, it is the person doing them.... find a decent judo club and show up. that's the only real answer.


This!
8/7/12 1:02 AM
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nowaydo
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What throw are you good at?
8/7/12 1:22 AM
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Trichoke7
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judoblackbelt - I will give it a shot but no matter what technique I suggest the skill in doing the the technique takes much practice and it all depends on the opponents weight balance and stance relative to yours. a favorite of mine is I fight with my left foot forward. Opponent usually fights with his right foot forward. I cross grip his lead right sleeve with my right hand and pull it in and across to my right side, reach around and grab his belt with my left hand and do sumi gaeshi throw to my left side. Very safe and hard to counter. For like stances( right lead foot vs right foot lead example). I like kosoto gari, harai goshi combination. Or kouchi gari, ouchi gari combination. I didn't mention any forward throws as these take much skill in getting your opponent to move forward or in a circle to set them.

 Yes, I've started to practice getting this control because they can't jump guard. I've also been thinking of trying the russian/georgian grip but I'm little worried of getting my back taken or them picking my leg. 
8/7/12 1:24 AM
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Trichoke7
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nowaydo - What throw are you good at?

 When they're crouched like a wrestler I still get kouchi, but I'd rather get kosoto because it's lands them in a better position. 
8/7/12 2:51 PM
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nowaydo
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Trichoke7 - 
nowaydo - What throw are you good at?

 When they're crouched like a wrestler I still get kouchi, but I'd rather get kosoto because it's lands them in a better position. 


Bingo!
8/7/12 6:22 PM
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judoblackbelt
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TC&- that is why you cross grip to prevent them from grabbing your leg. When you cross grip and pull that right arm(assume your left stance against their right stance) across your body to the other side this prevents this. I saw this used one time where the judo guy did it tothe BJJ guy and both were highley skilled. The judo guy scored yuko on it.
9/10/12 10:09 AM
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Sam Lowry
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I think it is a good question.

Against the bent over BJJ/wrestling guys I definitely find myself using different throws that are not my favorites in Judo. For example I did some massive makikomi throws on a couple of guys recently who had been very defensive. I dont think I have EVER used makikomi in judo randori.

Ouchigari/Uchimata can be a good combo, shame my uchimata still sucks. Even after twenty years or so of trying it periodically.

One thing to bear in mind is that if someone is in bent over and defending with straight arms they are probably using more strength than you, so time should be on your side. Letting them simply waste some energy is an option.

This video from super Judo seemed quite helpful also:

http://superjudo.tv/defeating-a-stiff-arm-defense/
9/10/12 10:55 AM
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Sam Lowry
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But yeah it can be problem. While I prefer an upright stance myself I would really like more practice against people fighting in a very defensive BJJ stance, which we dont get so many of in judo class. And in BJJ class we just dont really do enough stand up to really feel practiced at this stuff either.
9/10/12 2:22 PM
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jamtmann
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First post in a long time: Tri-choke, I agree with the statements encouraging you to look for and train with a judo club. During randori, ask them to simulate a BJJer; they will probably be more than eager to help you. Sumi gaeshi would work well with the cross grip as judoblackbelt instructed; it can work with an over the back belt grip as well, but you have to beat him to the punch and really commit to it.
9/11/12 3:57 AM
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judojon
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The first time I went to a BJJ club several years ago I wondered why the heck those guys all had the bent posture during standup. Had a lot of fun hitting the hop-in uchimata,(I wouldnt even try this in a judo match). Left hand, right hand ,it didnt matter, it was like a moon launch everytime.
9/11/12 5:53 AM
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Sam Lowry
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ken ken uchimata can definitely be a solution. Hmm maybe I will try and spend another decade or so working on uchimata. Maybe I will get the knack one day.
9/11/12 12:42 PM
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The Wizzle
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good thread. I've also had issues with this posture
9/11/12 11:17 PM
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Trichoke7
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judoblackbelt - TC&- that is why you cross grip to prevent them from grabbing your leg. When you cross grip and pull that right arm(assume your left stance against their right stance) across your body to the other side this prevents this. I saw this used one time where the judo guy did it tothe BJJ guy and both were highley skilled. The judo guy scored yuko on it.

Thanks, I have been practicing techniques from this grip as much as I can!
9/11/12 11:19 PM
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Trichoke7
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Sam Lowry - I think it is a good question.

Against the bent over BJJ/wrestling guys I definitely find myself using different throws that are not my favorites in Judo. For example I did some massive makikomi throws on a couple of guys recently who had been very defensive. I dont think I have EVER used makikomi in judo randori.

Ouchigari/Uchimata can be a good combo, shame my uchimata still sucks. Even after twenty years or so of trying it periodically.

One thing to bear in mind is that if someone is in bent over and defending with straight arms they are probably using more strength than you, so time should be on your side. Letting them simply waste some energy is an option.

This video from super Judo seemed quite helpful also:

http://superjudo.tv/defeating-a-stiff-arm-defense/

Makikomi scares me because I'm afraid of getting my back taken. 

I need to practice uchimata more. 

Should I just grab behind the neck for my lapel grip?
9/11/12 11:20 PM
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Trichoke7
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jamtmann - First post in a long time: Tri-choke, I agree with the statements encouraging you to look for and train with a judo club. During randori, ask them to simulate a BJJer; they will probably be more than eager to help you. Sumi gaeshi would work well with the cross grip as judoblackbelt instructed; it can work with an over the back belt grip as well, but you have to beat him to the punch and really commit to it.

  Thanks, I've actually been playing around the over the back grip and sumi gaeshi from it. 
9/11/12 11:24 PM
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Trichoke7
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judojon - The first time I went to a BJJ club several years ago I wondered why the heck those guys all had the bent posture during standup. Had a lot of fun hitting the hop-in uchimata,(I wouldnt even try this in a judo match). Left hand, right hand ,it didnt matter, it was like a moon launch everytime.

I know how to hop around in the uchimata, is that different from the "hop in?"
9/12/12 3:04 AM
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judojon
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Yes. basically hop with the plant foot right between the uke legs, no kuzushi so to speak to set up the throw.
9/12/12 9:02 AM
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Trichoke7
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Does the leg that reaps uki's go between before or at the same time as the hop?
9/13/12 2:17 AM
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judojon
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yep, same time. however,you really should watch some vids to get the proper picture of how its done.top hand grip should in the middle of uke's back.
9/13/12 6:49 AM
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judoblackbelt
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There are plenty of video's of competition footage on tube of ken ken uchimata. But if you want to see the best uchimata specialts of all time, Kosie Inoue is #1. He demonstrations show all the subtylties of uchimata. Many competition footage of his uchimataon you tube,

http://youtu.be/J2nxb2l5ATI (Inoue demonstrates his uchimata basics)

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