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HolyGround >> Can Christians smoke weed?


8/15/12 2:43 PM
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Grakman
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kway,
Don't know about 'losing control,' but there is:

Romans 13:13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery...drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

Ephesians 5:18 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery.

8/15/12 3:03 PM
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prof
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Grakman,

Perhaps you misread my post?

I said the answers here ARE well presented and thoughtful (and I'd certainly include Ridgeback's answer as an example of a thoughtful response).

Cheers,

Prof.
8/15/12 4:08 PM
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Kway
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Thanks Grak
8/15/12 5:40 PM
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toelocku
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Kaneh bosem ...google is Ur friend
8/15/12 6:16 PM
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Ridgeback
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Caleb - 
Ridgeback -  For medicine maybe.  For recreation it is hard to be vigilant and sober when you are high so I would say no.  I wouldn't judge a Christian who does smoke it, but I can't really make a case for Christians doing it that holds water.  I wouldn't hesitate to get some weed for a loved one who was suffering, especially with the way medicine is practiced these days.  But there is also a Christian wish for a conscious death so you have time to prepare yourself, and being completely out of it would prevent that to some degree.  Better to die with a clear mind if you can.  

You wouldn't judge a Christian "lovingly" who was breaking the law by smoking weed for recreational purposes? Perhaps Judge is a harsh word, how about talk to them about how breaking the law is against God's word? 



  I think prohibition is an unjust set of laws so no I would not take that approach.  As far as God's word I assume you mean the Bible and I see no injunctions specifically against weed although you could make an argument, as I did, that being high is not conducive to being sober and vigilant.  But it would be one of those things I would hope that a person would realize on his own and give up willingly for the sake of closer union with God, not because it was some kind of law breaking.

I completely disagree with you. It's the law and you don't break the law period. You don't pick and choose what laws you think are just or not. The bible doesn't specifically talk about weed but it does say not to be a drunkard and getting high IMO is the same exact thing, therefore it is against scripture(God's word). 



  Well this certainly isn't the lesson of the early Christians.  Thousands of them were slaughtered for breaking Roman law, including failing to worship the emperor or one of the gods of the Roman pantheon.  St. Paul and St. Peter were both executed by the state as law breakers.  St. Maria of Paris was executed for breaking Nazi law by helping Jews escape if you want a modern example.  Lots of laws are unjust and Christians are called to disobey those if it means compromising their faith.  Now doing drugs would not be one of those things, but Prohibition is still nevertheless unjust because it leads to the deaths of innocents and results in the imprisonment of non-violent offenders, especially minorities.  

Not sure what you disagree with on the second part.  I already pointed out twice that getting high is not conducive to being sober and vigilant.  

You said  "I think prohibition is an unjust set of laws so no I would not take that approach" In response to me asking if you would have a talk with your Christian friend about not smoking weed recreationally.That is what I disagree with you about.

I would lovingly tell my Christian brother that smoking weed for recreational purposes is simply ungodly. 

  Yes I understand.  I wouldn't say a word, but that is also something unique to my tradition.  In Orthodoxy we tend to do a good job of minding our own business when it comes to other people's sins and letting the priest handle it in confession.  It is a much more pleasant way to struggle against the passions.  And for the record, my priest did say smoking pot is a sin plain and simple so he wouldn't hesitate to tell a parishioner as much if they were using it recreationally.  I think we only disagree with how we would deal with a Christian friend, not in weather Christians should be smoking pot just for fun.  


8/15/12 6:27 PM
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Ridgeback
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Ridgeback -  For medicine maybe.  For recreation it is hard to be vigilant and sober when you are high so I would say no.  I wouldn't judge a Christian who does smoke it, but I can't really make a case for Christians doing it that holds water.  I wouldn't hesitate to get some weed for a loved one who was suffering, especially with the way medicine is practiced these days.  But there is also a Christian wish for a conscious death so you have time to prepare yourself, and being completely out of it would prevent that to some degree.  Better to die with a clear mind if you can.  

You wouldn't judge a Christian "lovingly" who was breaking the law by smoking weed for recreational purposes? Perhaps Judge is a harsh word, how about talk to them about how breaking the law is against God's word? 



  I think prohibition is an unjust set of laws so no I would not take that approach.  As far as God's word I assume you mean the Bible and I see no injunctions specifically against weed although you could make an argument, as I did, that being high is not conducive to being sober and vigilant.  But it would be one of those things I would hope that a person would realize on his own and give up willingly for the sake of closer union with God, not because it was some kind of law breaking.

I completely disagree with you. It's the law and you don't break the law period. You don't pick and choose what laws you think are just or not. The bible doesn't specifically talk about weed but it does say not to be a drunkard and getting high IMO is the same exact thing, therefore it is against scripture(God's word). 



  Well this certainly isn't the lesson of the early Christians.  Thousands of them were slaughtered for breaking Roman law, including failing to worship the emperor or one of the gods of the Roman pantheon.  St. Paul and St. Peter were both executed by the state as law breakers.  St. Maria of Paris was executed for breaking Nazi law by helping Jews escape if you want a modern example.  Lots of laws are unjust and Christians are called to disobey those if it means compromising their faith.  Now doing drugs would not be one of those things, but Prohibition is still nevertheless unjust because it leads to the deaths of innocents and results in the imprisonment of non-violent offenders, especially minorities.  

Not sure what you disagree with on the second part.  I already pointed out twice that getting high is not conducive to being sober and vigilant.  

You said  "I think prohibition is an unjust set of laws so no I would not take that approach" In response to me asking if you would have a talk with your Christian friend about not smoking weed recreationally.That is what I disagree with you about.

I would lovingly tell my Christian brother that smoking weed for recreational purposes is simply ungodly. 

I wouldn't use "godly" or "ungodly" as a mechanism for judging good or bad. I mean, how many people did God murder? Wouldn't that make murder "godly?"

So murder is godly but smoking a plant for your own personal enjoyment is "ungodly."

Gotcha.

  You don't have to become an asshole to become an atheist.  Prof. is never an asshole about his atheism.
8/15/12 7:14 PM
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Grakman
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prof - 
Grakman,

Perhaps you misread my post?

I said the answers here ARE well presented and thoughtful (and I'd certainly include Ridgeback's answer as an example of a thoughtful response).

Cheers,

Prof.

Indeed I did sir, I thought you were being sarcastic. I apologize.
8/16/12 4:11 AM
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DyingBreed
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gord96 -
I see your point completely. I just wouldn't because the want to keep peace outweighs the want for a drink for me. Like eating meat would have bothered some of Pauls brothers


You might just be doing them a favor if you had a drink around them. I was a somewhat legalistic bastard myself for a while. Someone finally smacked me with a little truth and I woke up. Legalism leads you further from God, not closer to God. ;)
"might" being the key word. What if it doesn't end up resulting in a "favor"? If you don't have a drink at all, the situation is avoided entirely with no possibility of offense Phone Post

No possibility of offense sounds good but I've seen people get upset when someone won't drink with them, and start insulting people: 'What'sa matter holy roller, can't even have a beer?' 'So you're saying I'm going to hell if I drink a beer? Hahahaha!'
Been there in that situation with weed. Was heckled for quitting when I suddenly stopped being an atheist, and friends felt I had abandoned them for some reason...as if their happiness was contingent on my belief system!


Either way, in this specific situation, I would just state my reasons I posted earlier, or possibly have a beer with them. I really think my reaction would depend on the situation. I'm not too ridged in this... Phone Post
8/16/12 9:41 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Grakman - jitsu, are you turning into the post-christian angry atheist guy now? lol

Trying not to be angry, honestly. It's becoming a task for me though.
8/16/12 9:45 AM
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JitsuGuy
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DyingBreed -  IMO, yes, as long as it is for medical reasons or for pain, and is legal where you are. If used as medicine and legal, because to a Christian, our bible says not to drink to drunkeness, and to abide by the laws your government has set up for you because god has placed them in that position for a reason. (this, providing they don't impose laws that don't allow us to worship our God)


That being said, I am also one of the rare Christians that knows it's ok to drink. I said drink, not get drunk. The reason I don't drink however is because a verse in the bible that makes perfect sense that states more or less that we shouldn't do things that might offend a fellow believer, and cause their conscience to be damaged. If a brother or sister in the faith who is dead set against alcohol touching ones lips sees me drinking one beer, their opinion of me is damaged, and the closeness that needs to be there in order to be one as the lord commanded is demolished.


So Paul says, "if eating meat causes my brother to be offended and stumble, I will never eat meat again"


It's nothing to really over-think. It's all about motive, and we should as a whole all the in the habit of self-examination Phone Post

Thanks God for placing Hitler in power... Or Stalin, or Lenin... Such compassionate guys who had their hands in massive genocide.

I love you God. You're so loving to your creation.
8/16/12 9:50 AM
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Caleb
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   "Yes I understand.  I wouldn't say a word, but that is also something unique to my tradition.  In Orthodoxy we tend to do a good job of minding our own business when it comes to other people's sins and letting the priest handle it in confession.  It is a much more pleasant way to struggle against the passions.  And for the record, my priest did say smoking pot is a sin plain and simple so he wouldn't hesitate to tell a parishioner as much if they were using it recreationally.  I think we only disagree with how we would deal with a Christian friend, not in weather Christians should be smoking pot just for fun"

Ok, I get it now. I'm completely against confession unless it is directly to God....no offense to you. Now if I have a close strong Christian friend, I may tell him or her some stuff I'm struggling with so we can talk it over and help strengthen each other but that is as close as I come to confession. I have a direct relationship with God through the Holy Spirit, so I confess my sins directly to him. 

I have no problem lovingly telling a Christian friend they are doing something that is wrong/sinful and then backing it up with scripture. This is how we strenghen each other as Christians in the word. He may not even know he is doing something wrong unless it is pointed out to him. Let's say he was Catholic, he wouldn't confess his sins if he didn't think it was a sin right? Maybe he missed the day your priest spoke about it in church.

Side note: Also, keep in mind medical weed is legal on the state level but not the federal level. So I would say technically it is against the higher law and I wouldn't condone it for a Christian.(I know that isn't a popular stance) I beleive we should always follow the higher law. God's law is the highest, so if the federal government told you to throw your bibles away and stop worshiping God or you will be arrested, that would be a good time to break the law, because the "higher" law tells you to read your bible and worship God. 













8/16/12 10:00 AM
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Caleb
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JitsuGuy - 
DyingBreed -  IMO, yes, as long as it is for medical reasons or for pain, and is legal where you are. If used as medicine and legal, because to a Christian, our bible says not to drink to drunkeness, and to abide by the laws your government has set up for you because god has placed them in that position for a reason. (this, providing they don't impose laws that don't allow us to worship our God)


That being said, I am also one of the rare Christians that knows it's ok to drink. I said drink, not get drunk. The reason I don't drink however is because a verse in the bible that makes perfect sense that states more or less that we shouldn't do things that might offend a fellow believer, and cause their conscience to be damaged. If a brother or sister in the faith who is dead set against alcohol touching ones lips sees me drinking one beer, their opinion of me is damaged, and the closeness that needs to be there in order to be one as the lord commanded is demolished.


So Paul says, "if eating meat causes my brother to be offended and stumble, I will never eat meat again"


It's nothing to really over-think. It's all about motive, and we should as a whole all the in the habit of self-examination Phone Post

Thanks God for placing Hitler in power... Or Stalin, or Lenin... Such compassionate guys who had their hands in massive genocide.

I love you God. You're so loving to your creation.

Maybe God took all those people to heaven where they will live in true peace for eternity? Better than anything we can fathom on our short time here on earth. Would that make him a loving God? 

I've learned that It is unwise to question my maker. If he made everything, he is quite a bit smarter than me. 





 
8/16/12 10:11 AM
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JitsuGuy
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DyingBreed -  IMO, yes, as long as it is for medical reasons or for pain, and is legal where you are. If used as medicine and legal, because to a Christian, our bible says not to drink to drunkeness, and to abide by the laws your government has set up for you because god has placed them in that position for a reason. (this, providing they don't impose laws that don't allow us to worship our God)


That being said, I am also one of the rare Christians that knows it's ok to drink. I said drink, not get drunk. The reason I don't drink however is because a verse in the bible that makes perfect sense that states more or less that we shouldn't do things that might offend a fellow believer, and cause their conscience to be damaged. If a brother or sister in the faith who is dead set against alcohol touching ones lips sees me drinking one beer, their opinion of me is damaged, and the closeness that needs to be there in order to be one as the lord commanded is demolished.


So Paul says, "if eating meat causes my brother to be offended and stumble, I will never eat meat again"


It's nothing to really over-think. It's all about motive, and we should as a whole all the in the habit of self-examination Phone Post

Thanks God for placing Hitler in power... Or Stalin, or Lenin... Such compassionate guys who had their hands in massive genocide.

I love you God. You're so loving to your creation.

Maybe God took all those people to heaven where they will live in true peace for eternity? Better than anything we can fathom on our short time here on earth. Would that make him a loving God? 

I've learned that It is unwise to question my maker. If he made everything, he is quite a bit smarter than me. 





 

Speculation, followed by speculation, topped off with more speculation.

I just love how God doesn't really want us to KNOW anyting... This idea that "faith" is the utmost important trait in which one should be judged is silly.

You're speculation also causes all kinds of other problems... Now you're saying because they were the victims of genocide they somehow get eternity with God. Nevermind what they believe.. Yet, the majority of the popular Christian doctrine is all about belief... And getting saved, because you might not live to see tomorrow.... Oh, but if you're part of genocide, you get a free ticket!

Christians gonna Christian
8/16/12 10:21 AM
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DyingBreed
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DyingBreed -  IMO, yes, as long as it is for medical reasons or for pain, and is legal where you are. If used as medicine and legal, because to a Christian, our bible says not to drink to drunkeness, and to abide by the laws your government has set up for you because god has placed them in that position for a reason. (this, providing they don't impose laws that don't allow us to worship our God)


That being said, I am also one of the rare Christians that knows it's ok to drink. I said drink, not get drunk. The reason I don't drink however is because a verse in the bible that makes perfect sense that states more or less that we shouldn't do things that might offend a fellow believer, and cause their conscience to be damaged. If a brother or sister in the faith who is dead set against alcohol touching ones lips sees me drinking one beer, their opinion of me is damaged, and the closeness that needs to be there in order to be one as the lord commanded is demolished.


So Paul says, "if eating meat causes my brother to be offended and stumble, I will never eat meat again"


It's nothing to really over-think. It's all about motive, and we should as a whole all the in the habit of self-examination Phone Post

Thanks God for placing Hitler in power... Or Stalin, or Lenin... Such compassionate guys who had their hands in massive genocide.

I love you God. You're so loving to your creation.
Haha, not really seeing the connection here Phone Post
8/16/12 10:27 AM
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DyingBreed
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JitsuGuy - 
DyingBreed -  IMO, yes, as long as it is for medical reasons or for pain, and is legal where you are. If used as medicine and legal, because to a Christian, our bible says not to drink to drunkeness, and to abide by the laws your government has set up for you because god has placed them in that position for a reason. (this, providing they don't impose laws that don't allow us to worship our God)


That being said, I am also one of the rare Christians that knows it's ok to drink. I said drink, not get drunk. The reason I don't drink however is because a verse in the bible that makes perfect sense that states more or less that we shouldn't do things that might offend a fellow believer, and cause their conscience to be damaged. If a brother or sister in the faith who is dead set against alcohol touching ones lips sees me drinking one beer, their opinion of me is damaged, and the closeness that needs to be there in order to be one as the lord commanded is demolished.


So Paul says, "if eating meat causes my brother to be offended and stumble, I will never eat meat again"


It's nothing to really over-think. It's all about motive, and we should as a whole all the in the habit of self-examination Phone Post

Thanks God for placing Hitler in power... Or Stalin, or Lenin... Such compassionate guys who had their hands in massive genocide.

I love you God. You're so loving to your creation.

Maybe God took all those people to heaven where they will live in true peace for eternity? Better than anything we can fathom on our short time here on earth. Would that make him a loving God? 

I've learned that It is unwise to question my maker. If he made everything, he is quite a bit smarter than me. 





 

Speculation, followed by speculation, topped off with more speculation.

I just love how God doesn't really want us to KNOW anyting... This idea that "faith" is the utmost important trait in which one should be judged is silly.

You're speculation also causes all kinds of other problems... Now you're saying because they were the victims of genocide they somehow get eternity with God. Nevermind what they believe.. Yet, the majority of the popular Christian doctrine is all about belief... And getting saved, because you might not live to see tomorrow.... Oh, but if you're part of genocide, you get a free ticket!

Christians gonna Christian
You are in speculation as well, claiming you understand God is somehow at fault for evil things happening in the earth.


A cone can look simply as a circle until turned on an axis. Ever think that there may be an "axis" we can't perceive yet?


Again, I speculate ;) Phone Post
8/16/12 10:48 AM
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JitsuGuy
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JitsuGuy - 
DyingBreed -  IMO, yes, as long as it is for medical reasons or for pain, and is legal where you are. If used as medicine and legal, because to a Christian, our bible says not to drink to drunkeness, and to abide by the laws your government has set up for you because god has placed them in that position for a reason. (this, providing they don't impose laws that don't allow us to worship our God)


That being said, I am also one of the rare Christians that knows it's ok to drink. I said drink, not get drunk. The reason I don't drink however is because a verse in the bible that makes perfect sense that states more or less that we shouldn't do things that might offend a fellow believer, and cause their conscience to be damaged. If a brother or sister in the faith who is dead set against alcohol touching ones lips sees me drinking one beer, their opinion of me is damaged, and the closeness that needs to be there in order to be one as the lord commanded is demolished.


So Paul says, "if eating meat causes my brother to be offended and stumble, I will never eat meat again"


It's nothing to really over-think. It's all about motive, and we should as a whole all the in the habit of self-examination Phone Post

Thanks God for placing Hitler in power... Or Stalin, or Lenin... Such compassionate guys who had their hands in massive genocide.

I love you God. You're so loving to your creation.

Maybe God took all those people to heaven where they will live in true peace for eternity? Better than anything we can fathom on our short time here on earth. Would that make him a loving God? 

I've learned that It is unwise to question my maker. If he made everything, he is quite a bit smarter than me. 





 

Speculation, followed by speculation, topped off with more speculation.

I just love how God doesn't really want us to KNOW anyting... This idea that "faith" is the utmost important trait in which one should be judged is silly.

You're speculation also causes all kinds of other problems... Now you're saying because they were the victims of genocide they somehow get eternity with God. Nevermind what they believe.. Yet, the majority of the popular Christian doctrine is all about belief... And getting saved, because you might not live to see tomorrow.... Oh, but if you're part of genocide, you get a free ticket!

Christians gonna Christian
You are in speculation as well, claiming you understand God is somehow at fault for evil things happening in the earth.


A cone can look simply as a circle until turned on an axis. Ever think that there may be an "axis" we can't perceive yet?


Again, I speculate ;) Phone Post

You can speculate all you want. For many that simply isn't enough.

At some point though, for many. Speuclation after specuation after speculation after speculation in order to try to make sense of something, just isn't going work. It also makes the faith look desparate in an attempt to try to make sense of things.

Just don't speculate, say you don't know... That is causes problems, but you don't have the answer.
8/16/12 10:53 AM
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Caleb
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"Speculation, followed by speculation, topped off with more speculation.
I just love how God doesn't really want us to KNOW anyting... This idea that "faith" is the utmost important trait in which one should be judged is silly.
You're speculation also causes all kinds of other problems... Now you're saying because they were the victims of genocide they somehow get eternity with God. Nevermind what they believe.. Yet, the majority of the popular Christian doctrine is all about belief... And getting saved, because you might not live to see tomorrow.... Oh, but if you're part of genocide, you get a free ticket!"

How do you know what they believed? You don't.  You yourself were trying to insult others here with mere speculation in your original post. We get it, you don't beleive in God, but I think we can both agree that if there is a sovereign God, then we wouldn't be able to come close to comprehending his actions and it would be silly to question them on a human level. 

You don't believe and that is your choice, no need to attack others that do believe though. Just move on with your life! After all, life is short. 

8/16/12 11:01 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Caleb -  
"Speculation, followed by speculation, topped off with more speculation.
I just love how God doesn't really want us to KNOW anyting... This idea that "faith" is the utmost important trait in which one should be judged is silly.
You're speculation also causes all kinds of other problems... Now you're saying because they were the victims of genocide they somehow get eternity with God. Nevermind what they believe.. Yet, the majority of the popular Christian doctrine is all about belief... And getting saved, because you might not live to see tomorrow.... Oh, but if you're part of genocide, you get a free ticket!"

How do you know what they believed? You don't.  You yourself were trying to insult others here with mere speculation in your original post. We get it, you don't beleive in God, but I think we can both agree that if there is a sovereign God, then we wouldn't be able to come close to comprehending his actions and it would be silly to question them on a human level. 

You don't believe and that is your choice, no need to attack others that do believe though. Just move on with your life! After all, life is short. 


I don't know that they didn't all believe... I do believe that to speculate that they were all believers just because they were a part of mass-murder is irrational.

With regards to the existence of a sovereign God existing. At some point, when things don't make sense with the defined characteristics of this sovereign god, one needs to maybe reconsider their belief. He's all loving, but allows 16,000 kids to day each day due to hunger-related illness they had no control over but he answers prayer for my friend's new 400k home...

God sure does have his priorities straight.

8/16/12 11:01 AM
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DyingBreed
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DyingBreed - 
JitsuGuy -
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JitsuGuy - 
DyingBreed -  IMO, yes, as long as it is for medical reasons or for pain, and is legal where you are. If used as medicine and legal, because to a Christian, our bible says not to drink to drunkeness, and to abide by the laws your government has set up for you because god has placed them in that position for a reason. (this, providing they don't impose laws that don't allow us to worship our God)


That being said, I am also one of the rare Christians that knows it's ok to drink. I said drink, not get drunk. The reason I don't drink however is because a verse in the bible that makes perfect sense that states more or less that we shouldn't do things that might offend a fellow believer, and cause their conscience to be damaged. If a brother or sister in the faith who is dead set against alcohol touching ones lips sees me drinking one beer, their opinion of me is damaged, and the closeness that needs to be there in order to be one as the lord commanded is demolished.


So Paul says, "if eating meat causes my brother to be offended and stumble, I will never eat meat again"


It's nothing to really over-think. It's all about motive, and we should as a whole all the in the habit of self-examination Phone Post

Thanks God for placing Hitler in power... Or Stalin, or Lenin... Such compassionate guys who had their hands in massive genocide.

I love you God. You're so loving to your creation.

Maybe God took all those people to heaven where they will live in true peace for eternity? Better than anything we can fathom on our short time here on earth. Would that make him a loving God? 

I've learned that It is unwise to question my maker. If he made everything, he is quite a bit smarter than me. 





 

Speculation, followed by speculation, topped off with more speculation.

I just love how God doesn't really want us to KNOW anyting... This idea that "faith" is the utmost important trait in which one should be judged is silly.

You're speculation also causes all kinds of other problems... Now you're saying because they were the victims of genocide they somehow get eternity with God. Nevermind what they believe.. Yet, the majority of the popular Christian doctrine is all about belief... And getting saved, because you might not live to see tomorrow.... Oh, but if you're part of genocide, you get a free ticket!

Christians gonna Christian
You are in speculation as well, claiming you understand God is somehow at fault for evil things happening in the earth.


A cone can look simply as a circle until turned on an axis. Ever think that there may be an "axis" we can't perceive yet?


Again, I speculate ;) Phone Post

You can speculate all you want. For many that simply isn't enough.

At some point though, for many. Speuclation after specuation after speculation after speculation in order to try to make sense of something, just isn't going work. It also makes the faith look desparate in an attempt to try to make sense of things.

Just don't speculate, say you don't know... That is causes problems, but you don't have the answer.
I don't have that problem with speculation for rationalization. I know who I have met. I experienced what you experienced, only backwards...I used to not believe, but now do Phone Post
8/16/12 11:18 AM
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JitsuGuy
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I have a lot of good memories from Christianity... It did offer a sense of community and support in a sense. For me, it just ended up being a bit hollow.

I want to believe, I just can't at this point in time.
8/16/12 11:28 AM
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DyingBreed
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JitsuGuy -
Caleb -  
"Speculation, followed by speculation, topped off with more speculation.
I just love how God doesn't really want us to KNOW anyting... This idea that "faith" is the utmost important trait in which one should be judged is silly.
You're speculation also causes all kinds of other problems... Now you're saying because they were the victims of genocide they somehow get eternity with God. Nevermind what they believe.. Yet, the majority of the popular Christian doctrine is all about belief... And getting saved, because you might not live to see tomorrow.... Oh, but if you're part of genocide, you get a free ticket!"

How do you know what they believed? You don't.  You yourself were trying to insult others here with mere speculation in your original post. We get it, you don't beleive in God, but I think we can both agree that if there is a sovereign God, then we wouldn't be able to come close to comprehending his actions and it would be silly to question them on a human level. 

You don't believe and that is your choice, no need to attack others that do believe though. Just move on with your life! After all, life is short. 


I don't know that they didn't all believe... I do believe that to speculate that they were all believers just because they were a part of mass-murder is irrational.

With regards to the existence of a sovereign God existing. At some point, when things don't make sense with the defined characteristics of this sovereign god, one needs to maybe reconsider their belief. He's all loving, but allows 16,000 kids to day each day due to hunger-related illness they had no control over but he answers prayer for my friend's new 400k home...

God sure does have his priorities straight.

WE have the responsibility to feed those kids dude. I don't watch a building on fire and blame God, saying "why did he allow this to happen...he should do something" ....I put it out!

That said, I am just as guilty as anyone else of seeing injustice I can do something about, and doing nothing. It isn't right by any stretch of the imagination Phone Post
8/16/12 11:40 AM
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Caleb
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JitsuGuy - I have a lot of good memories from Christianity... It did offer a sense of community and support in a sense. For me, it just ended up being a bit hollow.

I want to believe, I just can't at this point in time.

I can certainly respect that. If you want to believe, keep digging deeper. My biggest advice would be to find a bible study to get involved in but make sure you are getting something out of it. I have been involved in bible studies that I didn't get anything out of (Which doesn't mean God isn't real) so I moved on until I found one I got a TON out of. There is a guy who leads ours who has been a Christian for over 30 years and he really knows the scripture. I don't take his word for any of it but I do learn a lot from him and he encourages me to dig deeper and find my own understand. The deeper I dig the more I realize how much this guy knows and how good of a teacher/leader he is. 

Heck, even if you never believed in God, the bible has a ton to offer when it comes to solid principles to live your life by. When you start digging into the the position of Christ with relation to marriage, jealousy, envy, deceit, etc. etc.(list is VERY long) You find that if you follow those principles, you become a much better person in general. If the world followed those principles, it would fix a lot of problems we currently have. I'm born again man, I'm 33 years old and am starting all over again with how I live my life, KNOWING for a fact the way I lived before was wrong. 

8/16/12 12:07 PM
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JitsuGuy
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DyingBreed - 
JitsuGuy -
Caleb -  
"Speculation, followed by speculation, topped off with more speculation.
I just love how God doesn't really want us to KNOW anyting... This idea that "faith" is the utmost important trait in which one should be judged is silly.
You're speculation also causes all kinds of other problems... Now you're saying because they were the victims of genocide they somehow get eternity with God. Nevermind what they believe.. Yet, the majority of the popular Christian doctrine is all about belief... And getting saved, because you might not live to see tomorrow.... Oh, but if you're part of genocide, you get a free ticket!"

How do you know what they believed? You don't.  You yourself were trying to insult others here with mere speculation in your original post. We get it, you don't beleive in God, but I think we can both agree that if there is a sovereign God, then we wouldn't be able to come close to comprehending his actions and it would be silly to question them on a human level. 

You don't believe and that is your choice, no need to attack others that do believe though. Just move on with your life! After all, life is short. 


I don't know that they didn't all believe... I do believe that to speculate that they were all believers just because they were a part of mass-murder is irrational.

With regards to the existence of a sovereign God existing. At some point, when things don't make sense with the defined characteristics of this sovereign god, one needs to maybe reconsider their belief. He's all loving, but allows 16,000 kids to day each day due to hunger-related illness they had no control over but he answers prayer for my friend's new 400k home...

God sure does have his priorities straight.

WE have the responsibility to feed those kids dude. I don't watch a building on fire and blame God, saying "why did he allow this to happen...he should do something" ....I put it out!

That said, I am just as guilty as anyone else of seeing injustice I can do something about, and doing nothing. It isn't right by any stretch of the imagination Phone Post

We're too consumed with our first-world problems. I bought a loaf of rye bread and the slices are too fucking long to fit in my toaster. I have to tear about a quarter of the bread off before I can toast it.

But you're right, it is all up to us. God doesn't interact with us or influence people to accept a bid on a home just as he doesn't influence people to not have kids in poverty stricken countries because they're most likely going to starve to death.

Everything I witness shows me a God who is very hands off. It's very difficult to believe in a god like that... It's also very difficult to want to believe in a god like that.
8/16/12 12:12 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Caleb - 
JitsuGuy - I have a lot of good memories from Christianity... It did offer a sense of community and support in a sense. For me, it just ended up being a bit hollow.

I want to believe, I just can't at this point in time.

I can certainly respect that. If you want to believe, keep digging deeper. My biggest advice would be to find a bible study to get involved in but make sure you are getting something out of it. I have been involved in bible studies that I didn't get anything out of (Which doesn't mean God isn't real) so I moved on until I found one I got a TON out of. There is a guy who leads ours who has been a Christian for over 30 years and he really knows the scripture. I don't take his word for any of it but I do learn a lot from him and he encourages me to dig deeper and find my own understand. The deeper I dig the more I realize how much this guy knows and how good of a teacher/leader he is. 

Heck, even if you never believed in God, the bible has a ton to offer when it comes to solid principles to live your life by. When you start digging into the the position of Christ with relation to marriage, jealousy, envy, deceit, etc. etc.(list is VERY long) You find that if you follow those principles, you become a much better person in general. If the world followed those principles, it would fix a lot of problems we currently have. I'm born again man, I'm 33 years old and am starting all over again with how I live my life, KNOWING for a fact the way I lived before was wrong. 


I don't want to know God by spending hours in His imperfect word. I've been there and done that. I want to know him by examining the world we live in just as those do who do not have access to a bible.

I'm not interested in a book that's supposedly "God's word" and who is not the "author of confusion" yet, who's own church cannot agree on simple things, thus there are thousands of denominations. To me, it's a just a lot of spinning wheels and nobody gets anywhere.

I'm to the point that I cannot embrace the god of Christianity. He's too hot-headed, hypocritcal and vain.
8/16/12 6:00 PM
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Grakman
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jitsu, have you explored any other religions or beliefs systems, and or do you consider yourself agnostic / atheist?

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