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HolyGround >> Can Christians smoke weed?


8/17/12 9:42 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Grakman - jitsu, have you explored any other religions or beliefs systems, and or do you consider yourself agnostic / atheist?

The emotional side of me would say I'm agnostic. I don't want this to be it.

The reasonable side of me says I'm atheist because any diety that allows the suffering we see in the world cannot be loving and I don't want to believe in an asshole god.

The other part of my reasonable side says I can still be an atheist and believe in an after-life in a way that there is no deity but there is something.
8/17/12 9:44 AM
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JitsuGuy
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gord96 - Keep seeking Jitsuguy! Try not to let the anger get to you. I know it can be tough! I fell away from faith 7 years ago and became an atheist and then agnostic before I found faith again about 5 years later. Since coming back to faith my journey has been filled with highs and lows and kicks to the nuts, but I feel I am now on a good path of seeking God and have peace. I hope your journey leads you to some peace too. :)

Wow, it's not often you hear of people that lost their faith, became atheists and then found the faith again.
8/17/12 12:00 PM
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DyingBreed
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JitsuGuy -
gord96 - Keep seeking Jitsuguy! Try not to let the anger get to you. I know it can be tough! I fell away from faith 7 years ago and became an atheist and then agnostic before I found faith again about 5 years later. Since coming back to faith my journey has been filled with highs and lows and kicks to the nuts, but I feel I am now on a good path of seeking God and have peace. I hope your journey leads you to some peace too. :)

Wow, it's not often you hear of people that lost their faith, became atheists and then found the faith again.
I am one.


When I was about 14 I had the whole "born again experience" with the strong presence of God entering my room that night complete with automatic worship I knew nothing about and snot bubbles...


Then, somehow, as if it were "supposed" to happen, fell away until I was 19, forgetting the experience until I was desperate and cried out to him and had the experience of his presence again.


This is one of the many reasons I don't just believe in God, I KNOW him. I guess I've had a fortunate or easy path with faith, while others seem to struggle.


But I see the atheists point of view completely Phone Post
8/17/12 12:02 PM
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boooring
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Ridgeback - 
Caleb - 
Ridgeback -  For medicine maybe.  For recreation it is hard to be vigilant and sober when you are high so I would say no.  I wouldn't judge a Christian who does smoke it, but I can't really make a case for Christians doing it that holds water.  I wouldn't hesitate to get some weed for a loved one who was suffering, especially with the way medicine is practiced these days.  But there is also a Christian wish for a conscious death so you have time to prepare yourself, and being completely out of it would prevent that to some degree.  Better to die with a clear mind if you can.  

You wouldn't judge a Christian "lovingly" who was breaking the law by smoking weed for recreational purposes? Perhaps Judge is a harsh word, how about talk to them about how breaking the law is against God's word? 



  I think prohibition is an unjust set of laws so no I would not take that approach.  As far as God's word I assume you mean the Bible and I see no injunctions specifically against weed although you could make an argument, as I did, that being high is not conducive to being sober and vigilant.  But it would be one of those things I would hope that a person would realize on his own and give up willingly for the sake of closer union with God, not because it was some kind of law breaking.

What do you think Romans 13 says about the laws of governing authorities?
8/17/12 12:33 PM
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Grakman
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jitsu,
It may not that uncommon, it happened to me as well, although my journey was faith - atheism - faith.

There are other religions out there that believe in an afterlife without a god, the Jains and Buddhism come immediately to mind, and there are religions that believe in God with a positive afterlife experience based on deeds rather than beliefs, such as Reform Judaism and Sikhism and many of the varieties of neo-paganism. I'm not suggesting that you should or must convert but I am saying that you wouldn't be a believer of one if you chose to have a personal belief system that included those ideas.

You might also be interested in exploring 'Oneness', not as a contradiction of the doctrine of the Trinity but as a concept that sees all religions as a means of man attempting to understand God, each from it's own perspective. Yes, it sounds like PC-tolerance BS but there is some precedent for such an idea, particlarly in the religions I've already mentioned. A man named Jeffrey Moses undertook a study of the world's religions and distilled the ethics and morals from the ceremonial and docrtinal trappings and found that many of the world's religions shared similar ethical principles. You can find the book here:

http://www.onenessonline.com/

It's lightweight reading and really depends more on the spiritual state of the person doing the reading rather than the comments themselves, but it's an interesting read nonetheless.

I am not trying to convert you but sharing this in the hope that it may help you on your own spiritual journey.
8/17/12 1:06 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Grakman - jitsu,
It may not that uncommon, it happened to me as well, although my journey was faith - atheism - faith.

There are other religions out there that believe in an afterlife without a god, the Jains and Buddhism come immediately to mind, and there are religions that believe in God with a positive afterlife experience based on deeds rather than beliefs, such as Reform Judaism and Sikhism and many of the varieties of neo-paganism. I'm not suggesting that you should or must convert but I am saying that you wouldn't be a believer of one if you chose to have a personal belief system that included those ideas.

You might also be interested in exploring 'Oneness', not as a contradiction of the doctrine of the Trinity but as a concept that sees all religions as a means of man attempting to understand God, each from it's own perspective. Yes, it sounds like PC-tolerance BS but there is some precedent for such an idea, particlarly in the religions I've already mentioned. A man named Jeffrey Moses undertook a study of the world's religions and distilled the ethics and morals from the ceremonial and docrtinal trappings and found that many of the world's religions shared similar ethical principles. You can find the book here:

http://www.onenessonline.com/

It's lightweight reading and really depends more on the spiritual state of the person doing the reading rather than the comments themselves, but it's an interesting read nonetheless.

I am not trying to convert you but sharing this in the hope that it may help you on your own spiritual journey.

Excellent... I'll will definitely check that out.

I'm open to anything on spiritual matters after being around most my life.
8/18/12 4:37 PM
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Ridgeback
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boooring - 
Ridgeback - 
Caleb - 
Ridgeback -  For medicine maybe.  For recreation it is hard to be vigilant and sober when you are high so I would say no.  I wouldn't judge a Christian who does smoke it, but I can't really make a case for Christians doing it that holds water.  I wouldn't hesitate to get some weed for a loved one who was suffering, especially with the way medicine is practiced these days.  But there is also a Christian wish for a conscious death so you have time to prepare yourself, and being completely out of it would prevent that to some degree.  Better to die with a clear mind if you can.  

You wouldn't judge a Christian "lovingly" who was breaking the law by smoking weed for recreational purposes? Perhaps Judge is a harsh word, how about talk to them about how breaking the law is against God's word? 



  I think prohibition is an unjust set of laws so no I would not take that approach.  As far as God's word I assume you mean the Bible and I see no injunctions specifically against weed although you could make an argument, as I did, that being high is not conducive to being sober and vigilant.  But it would be one of those things I would hope that a person would realize on his own and give up willingly for the sake of closer union with God, not because it was some kind of law breaking.

What do you think Romans 13 says about the laws of governing authorities?

  I think it is a pretty ironic thing to have been written by a man who was eventually beheaded by the state.  I have to look at the larger tradition of the Church, not merely one epistle of Paul, who is certainly one of the Apostles, but not the supreme ruler or something like that.  Obeying laws that are reasonable and exist to keep the peace is a Christian duty, but the history of Christianity is marked by millions of examples of Christians engaging in disobedience to the authorities because the law was unjust towards the weak or because it attempted to enforce loyalty to false gods.  If there is a government order to evacuate a town and leave the victims of a plague behind to die then I believe a Christian is called to disobey and stay with the sick and dying.  I am not saying every Christian has the maturity to be able to do this, but the question of obeying the law is virtually moot in this instance.  

On the other hand, a very good case could be made that even though the laws against marijuana are excessive and ridiculous, it does no harm to a Christian to simply abstain from recreational drug use and not break such a law just to break it..  The exception would be cases of charity for the sick.  Yes I think it might be an act of agape love to bring pot to a person dying of cancer and break the law in the process.  We live at peace with the fallen Kingdom of this world as much as possible, but we are not beholden to it.

Honestly the whole tone of Romans 13 is bizarre and seems completely out of place in the writing of Paul as an aside.  
8/19/12 1:22 AM
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Grakman
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Smoking weed could be seen as unnecessarily provoking the authorities as well, as breaking said law really has nothing to do with worship or helping people, outside of the rare case of delivering medical marijuana to a sick person in Ridge's example.

It's an interesting question to consider whether Christians should or could smoke marijuana, yet we still have so-called blue laws on the books in most states that prohibit the purchase of alcohol on Sunday or only at certain hours that were implemented for religious reasons. So on the one hand we have Christians who may be looking for a rationale to smoke marijuana without it being a sin, and other Christians outright banning the sale of alcohol or curtailing the purchase of alcohol on Sundays or other times. O_o
8/20/12 5:29 AM
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BackInBlack
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A christian CAN do whatever they want. If you want to kill kittens or sniff glue but believe in the gospel then you are a Christian.

You should be asking yourself SHOULD a Christian smoke pot, and I think the answer would be no. As for medicinal marijuana, the medicinal part is the drug THC not weed itself, so making a tea or taking a pill form would be better, but honestly there are other drugs that could e taken to get the same effects without making you feel "high"

IMHO getting high is not what a Christian should do. Phone Post
8/21/12 10:07 AM
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boooring
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"We live at peace with the fallen Kingdom of this world as much as possible, but we are not beholden to it."

But that's not what Romans 13 says. It doesn't say live at peace, it says submit to their authority. The only caveat to that is what the apostles say in Acts about they will break that if an authority will restrict their duty to fulfill the great commission and the great commandment.

Does that mean illegally bringing pot to someone who is sick to make them feel better? Maybe. You brought up the background events that Paul was beheaded despite his best efforts of using ALL the legal means at his disposal (claiming Roman citizenship for one - hence his beheading and not crucifixion). He didn't write a letter saying "somebody break me out of here the Emperor is unjust!"
8/21/12 10:56 AM
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Caleb
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boooring - "We live at peace with the fallen Kingdom of this world as much as possible, but we are not beholden to it."

But that's not what Romans 13 says. It doesn't say live at peace, it says submit to their authority. The only caveat to that is what the apostles say in Acts about they will break that if an authority will restrict their duty to fulfill the great commission and the great commandment.

Does that mean illegally bringing pot to someone who is sick to make them feel better? Maybe. You brought up the background events that Paul was beheaded despite his best efforts of using ALL the legal means at his disposal (claiming Roman citizenship for one - hence his beheading and not crucifixion). He didn't write a letter saying "somebody break me out of here the Emperor is unjust!"

Illegally bringing pot to someone to make them feel better? Um, no, that is clearly breaking the law. If our government said to stop worshiping God that would be a one that you break, because we are commanded to worship him, by him and that is a higher law. 

IMO smoking weed for any reason is wrong because it is currently against federal law. So just because your state says it's ok, that doesn't mean it is. The higher law would prevail here and that would be federal law.

It can be a grey area at times but wrongly rationalizing laws you think are unjust to enable yourself to break them is not ok and is against scripture. 







 
8/21/12 12:32 PM
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boooring
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Caleb - Agreed. My 'maybe' comment was an attempt to address the exception not the rule. An example could be: is it loving of your brother who is dying with extreme pain and you have no other way to comfort them than administering pot? I understand this is a highly unlikely scenario, hence the 'maybe'.

I believe that Romans 13 falls completely inline with Paul's actions and is not 'bizarre and out of place'. Take his letter to Philemon. He used all legal and customary guidelines to get a slave freed. It seems to be the same principle to me. He could have told Philemon that Onesimus holds image bearing status and Philemon being a Christian now should recognize that and let him go. But he didn't. If a Christian feels something is unjust they have every right to use any legal means to have that changed. But until that time comes it is our charge to submit to that authority.
8/21/12 12:48 PM
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gord96
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If someone I knew was suffering and pot would help ease their pain, I would get them some in a heartbeat. Seems silly to get all legalistic at a time like that.
8/21/12 12:51 PM
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JitsuGuy
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BackInBlack -  A christian CAN do whatever they want. If you want to kill kittens or sniff glue but believe in the gospel then you are a Christian.

You should be asking yourself SHOULD a Christian smoke pot, and I think the answer would be no. As for medicinal marijuana, the medicinal part is the drug THC not weed itself, so making a tea or taking a pill form would be better, but honestly there are other drugs that could e taken to get the same effects without making you feel "high"

IMHO getting high is not what a Christian should do. Phone Post

Thanks God for creating this plant that you knew we would end up smoking but you put it here anyway. It screams of sabotage and some form of sick entertainment. But you're God, so you're awesome anyway.
8/21/12 12:52 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Or, maybe Christians have it wrong and God doesn't give a fuck if you smoke pot.

That's more what I would think.
8/21/12 1:38 PM
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Grakman
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This whole 'submit to authority unless they tell you not to worship God' is a scary slippery slope imo. As long as the higher 'authority' level of government says that's how it should be, we obey? So what do we do when the government begins rounding up Jews, or putting people in chains to make them slaves, or institutes a draft to fight a war of aggression? What if the government decides to rescind the right to vote and only allows a favored ethnic group or party power in the government?

Just because the government says something is OK doesn't mean it is.
8/21/12 1:50 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Grakman - This whole 'submit to authority unless they tell you not to worship God' is a scary slippery slope imo. As long as the higher 'authority' level of government says that's how it should be, we obey? So what do we do when the government begins rounding up Jews, or putting people in chains to make them slaves, or institutes a draft to fight a war of aggression? What if the government decides to rescind the right to vote and only allows a favored ethnic group or party power in the government?

Just because the government says something is OK doesn't mean it is.

God had Paul beheaded.
8/21/12 5:08 PM
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boooring
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Grakman - Your examples are all violations of the great(est) commandment. Therefore, a Christian has every right to oppose those and seek, lawful at first, means to change them. You can dissent, for example in the case of a draft, but it is the charge of a Christian to accept the consequences the government authorities have in place for that. That could mean jail; it could mean death.

Take the example of abortion. It is not 'ok' for a Christian to go around bombing clinics and killing abortionists, i.e. taking the law into their own hands. However, it is 'ok' to be heard in the public sphere and to use the intersection of earthly and heavenly means to get that changed.
8/21/12 6:08 PM
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Caleb
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boooring - Caleb - Agreed. My 'maybe' comment was an attempt to address the exception not the rule. An example could be: is it loving of your brother who is dying with extreme pain and you have no other way to comfort them than administering pot? I understand this is a highly unlikely scenario, hence the 'maybe'.

I believe that Romans 13 falls completely inline with Paul's actions and is not 'bizarre and out of place'. Take his letter to Philemon. He used all legal and customary guidelines to get a slave freed. It seems to be the same principle to me. He could have told Philemon that Onesimus holds image bearing status and Philemon being a Christian now should recognize that and let him go. But he didn't. If a Christian feels something is unjust they have every right to use any legal means to have that changed. But until that time comes it is our charge to submit to that authority.

 I knew what you meant and was on the same page with you. I was pointing out that another poster was wrong when he said that (IMO). I'm also against it in your unlikely scenario you provided. 

I also don't think Romans 13 is bizarre or out of place. I completely agree with your take on it. 


8/21/12 6:10 PM
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Caleb
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JitsuGuy - 
Grakman - This whole 'submit to authority unless they tell you not to worship God' is a scary slippery slope imo. As long as the higher 'authority' level of government says that's how it should be, we obey? So what do we do when the government begins rounding up Jews, or putting people in chains to make them slaves, or institutes a draft to fight a war of aggression? What if the government decides to rescind the right to vote and only allows a favored ethnic group or party power in the government?

Just because the government says something is OK doesn't mean it is.

God had Paul beheaded.

  And he is in heaven for all of eternity.  Your point? 
8/21/12 6:11 PM
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Caleb
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boooring - Grakman - Your examples are all violations of the great(est) commandment. Therefore, a Christian has every right to oppose those and seek, lawful at first, means to change them. You can dissent, for example in the case of a draft, but it is the charge of a Christian to accept the consequences the government authorities have in place for that. That could mean jail; it could mean death.

Take the example of abortion. It is not 'ok' for a Christian to go around bombing clinics and killing abortionists, i.e. taking the law into their own hands. However, it is 'ok' to be heard in the public sphere and to use the intersection of earthly and heavenly means to get that changed.

  Beautiful example Boring. Spot on.

8/21/12 6:18 PM
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gord96
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And he is in heaven for all of eternity. Your point?


You're probably right. A man that in touch with God and most likely possessing that much knowledge of the saviors mysteries went right to the Kingdom of Light. No need for reincarnation for that guy. :)
8/21/12 11:18 PM
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Ridgeback
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JitsuGuy - 
Grakman - This whole 'submit to authority unless they tell you not to worship God' is a scary slippery slope imo. As long as the higher 'authority' level of government says that's how it should be, we obey? So what do we do when the government begins rounding up Jews, or putting people in chains to make them slaves, or institutes a draft to fight a war of aggression? What if the government decides to rescind the right to vote and only allows a favored ethnic group or party power in the government?

Just because the government says something is OK doesn't mean it is.

God had Paul beheaded.

This is below you.  You are demeaning yourself.
8/26/12 7:42 PM
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zaiontz
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Good thread Phone Post
10/16/12 11:34 AM
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Turbogoat
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Book of Genesis, all herbs are placed on earth for mans consumption. Phone Post

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