UnderGround Forums
 

JKD UnderGround >> Trapping


8/12/12 10:15 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 08/13/12 7:01 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 801
 
I mentioned this a year or so ago, but might need to be re-visited...IMHO Trapping has been constructed, trained and performed all wrong!!! For JKD guys we have to evolve, change, and progress and sometimes that means going against all that has been done in the past.
No disrespect to anyone, living or dead.

Trapping should "not" be done by..... Entering to Trapping to Grappling

It should be....Entering to Grappling to Trapping...

You Trap inside or coming out, not going in if you want to make any of it work in a fight with a hi % of success.

Researching actual traps used to catch animals and becoming a trapper myself, I realized all traps (Real traps) are constructed the same, the same mechanism. So if we are going to catch an animal (Humans) then why is the mechanism different in Martial Arts?

How many times does the mouse trap miss??
not many...Why? Because the mechanism is sound, the bait is right, and it's put in the right area.....BANG...Trapped..

Wing Chun, Kali, JKD trapping...Nope!!! not for me anymore, not in my world of trapping. I have a whole new way and it works because aggressive resistance is the bait and humans just can't resist, like a sweet roll to a rat.
8/14/12 6:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Demitrius Barbito
40 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3048
 I would have entitles this thread HITTING.

I hope to hit and not get hit. Trapping would be an incidental stepping stone to hitting again, not a goal.

BUT, that's just me. I like to eat octopus.
8/15/12 9:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Paul Hopkins
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2880
I hope to not hit and not get hit.

But, that's just me. I have to agree with Demi on the octupus. The best octopus is cooked delicately over dying embers of apple and/or pear.
8/16/12 10:08 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 802
Hey guys..
Demi the incidental thing is old school thinking, and believe me no disrespect brother.
But traditional trapping and the practice of, have led to statements like that.

The trap I speak of "is" Hitting, stabbing, flipping and so on. The trap is a concept rather then a technique like a pak sao or lop sao. In traditional trapping the trap does not add much to the strike as a matter of fact as you said trap or hit, one or the other. The way I now trap the hit, flip, thrust "is" the trap. It's how the techbique is apply.

If you just strike someone YOU have to develop the power through body mechanics, this resembles a car going 50mph smashing into a parked car, the collision is at 50mph.

When I trap I'm creating twice the power because through resistance from my opponent, a structured spring. Now not only is my car going 50mph but the other car is also going 50mph causing a head on collision, a force on force multiple of 100mph collision speed. This is similar to the opponent stepping in at the exact time you throw your cross creating a F-on-F multiplier in punching range.

This spring can safely be created in clinch where the opponents are holding tight, as you said, not to get hit. This is the time to trap when the tension is so tight that the spring & trigger can easily be set.

This trap concept doesn't need super natural timing and speed as in traditional trapping, but rather just knowledge and feel allowing it to have a greater % of success and increased power.

You can trap to an elbow, trap to a knee, flip, choke, armbar, it's the non-traditional mechanism you want to learn. And it's not incidental it's planned and goal orientated.



s
8/16/12 12:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 7178
Without the 'work' done by BL, who had insane attributes, without the influence of eskrima and WC, what would trapping be?

It would be like in boxing 'cuffing' the blow. It would be like in shotokan, grabbing the gi and hitting. It would be like pummeling in wrestling.

We have to subtract out that need for high attributes. We have to imagine the opponent can hurt us with a touch, and the goal is to hit and not be hit (or not hit as hard). 

But there's something intriguing in 'tying up' the opponent. Chi sao, hubud-lubud, all based on the idea that the opponent will just stand there and be static and let you reside in that range. It doesn't happen IRL.

To me, pummeling (collar-ties, grip fighting) will always beat any prolonged idea of trapping. Any time you do it or see it, if the opponent is not being dynamic, just standing extending their 'handle', it's false.

8/16/12 6:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Demitrius Barbito
40 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3051
 I was blown away by the womens wrestling t=in the olympics recently. They were so AWESOME!
8/16/12 9:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Paul Hopkins
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2882
Women's hammer is uber awesome.

Moe J, would you say that 1600 fps with 1800 ft lbs of energy is another example of trapping?
8/17/12 10:22 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 803
Paul Hopkins - Women's hammer is uber awesome.

Moe J, would you say that 1600 fps with 1800 ft lbs of energy is another example of trapping?

For me NOPE!!!!

Paul here is a modern day trap as I now see it that can and is used in MMA.: The simplest form to understand would be to clinch up and get a single underhook and crossface, push on the opponents face ( the lever) driving him back causing him to post for base, creating resistance ( the spring) then releasing the pressure ( the trigger) and simultaneously as he pushes back you pull into an elbow ( a smashing device) . Maxing the F-on-F multiplier.

We call this trap concept The Mouse Trap, because the mechanism has the components of the MT, the simplest and most consistent trap. A real trap not the WC/JKD stuff.

First The Bait: An aggressive resistant male.
Trap components.
1 Lever
2.Spring
3.Trigger
4. A capturing, smashing or chopping/cutting device.

I'm using common movement that y'all can recognize here.

For the Knife Fighter lets sue the sawing machine, ( rapid thrusting) seen and used in many prison fights.
Why is this so effective? Because unannounced it is the Mouse Trap concept being applied.

Sawing machine:
Hold your left arm in front of you like a shield, grab and hold your opponent's coat, chest, collar etc. this is known to the knifer as the guard, push on the opponent with the guard ( the lever) driving him back causing him to post for base, creating resistance ( the spring) then releasing the pressure ( the trigger) and simultaneously as he pushes back you pull into rapid thrusts. ( using a cutting device) . Maxing the F-on-F multiplier. But this time it's real world with a knife.

The mechanism is exactly the same in both examples. And as history has proven both work.

I didn't make this stuff up, simple machines have been around way before me, and man has been catching creatures using traps for centuries. With all the controversy regarding trapping for the last decade in JKD I decided to investigate exactly what real traps were, how they were made and the mechanics behind them. The traps were based in universal law, force and pressure, gravity, centrifugal force, timing, distance etc these are what made up a trap, (a machine) and the human body is just another machine.

I started realizing the body mechanics of the human can also be used in the same way as the mechanics of real traps. As a matter of fact, the human has already been doing so but was never realized in this manner..

With great success we now apply this concept along with other trapping concepts using different energy, For example: instead of pushing to create the spring we/they pull, another common energy found in all fights, we call this the Bow trap, just as effective as the Mouse Trap but using the opposing energy.
9/28/12 7:50 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
erathdj
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/29/02
Posts: 46
Hey guys...I don't think I've posted here in many years (maybe 10?), so I hope this doesn't come across as too promotional, but I've recently added a WC video to a new MA site of mine that demonstrates the problems with traditional WC trapping along with some applications in a boxing setting. I thought you might enjoy it:

http://www.functionalselfdefense.org/wing-chun/

Notice at the end of the video there are two alternative applications of WC techniques. IMO, these are in line with what Joe has written in this thread, and I agree. The best way to trap a person is to CONTROL them, and the clinch is the optimal place to do that in self defense.

Although I do very much agree with that, I also see value in using some basic WC traps as "entry assists". So for example, as I show in the above video, you can use a pak sao to get you into a control position in the clinch, where your opponent is trapped and you have a great variety of options. You can use a bong sao to crash, giving you a double lop sao (two-on-one), which is another clinch based trap/control.

Thoughts?
10/1/12 2:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 809
I agree, you can slap, punch or use a technique to get in, or crash your way in.
And your opponent can do the same. Yup!!!
usually it happens at the same time.
10/3/12 5:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Siciliano
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/2/04
Posts: 1292
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6hSx6mJ8FA

Stumbled on this clip of Roy Harris on FB.
10/4/12 10:02 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 810
So my brother what do you think about that clip of Roy's?
10/4/12 10:05 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Paul Hopkins
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2885
looks like sustainable intelligent training to me
10/4/12 10:59 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Siciliano
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 10/04/12 10:59 AM
Member Since: 10/2/04
Posts: 1293

Seems like a drill with some pretty good resistance. I don't know. My experience in trapping is very minimal compared to the hours I've done Thai clinching so I really cannot comment on it unless I feel it.
10/5/12 9:42 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 811
The title of the clip is
"JKD Trapping with applications"

And the intro heading is
"This video is a quick demonstration of how you can train the timing, distancing, and sensitivity of the oft neglected trapping range in Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. Not only will you see multiple of trapping, but you will also see applications and insertions from multiple striking and grappling arts. Interested in this higher form of training? Visit the Modern Self-Defense Center in Meriden, Connecticut. Our Jeet Kune Do program will get you jump started into the world of functional martial arts training. See more at www.modernselfdefense.com. And we're so confident you'll love our program, we offer 30 days absolutely free!"

I have spent the majority of my life in MA, today I am very anti-establishment, and at my age $$ over truth is BS. The American people have been deceived and lied to, and for years I was part of that lie and many are guilty as well, whether it was known or not.

You see guys the characteristics that make up all fights are missing here. Such as fatigue, confusion, urgency, commitment, overly increased heart rate, excessive heavy breathing, and so on. With out these characteristics true timing, distancing, and sensitivity needed, are neglected. Therefore, the training is not valid if we are speaking in terms of JKD which is regarding individual truth in combat.
10/10/12 2:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Siciliano
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/2/04
Posts: 1311
I've learned throughout the years training in martial arts, that there is a big difference between seeing it live or in video versus actually feeling it.

Case #1: 2003 - Manila, Philippines - Prior to training in the FMA system called Ilustrisimo, I've been joining stick-fighting tourneys and I spar a lot. I told my instructor's son (back then) that I don't believe these disarms that I've seen on video are effective.

We sparred knife vs knife. It was like fighting a phantom. i got disarmed, wrist locked and drilled to the ground so many times.

Case #2: 2006 - NYC. Exchanged training ideas with a guy who does Wing Chun (not JKD), Balintawak Arnis and San Shou. I seriously had doubts about WC back then. We did a drill - sticky hands and the goal was for me to put each other in a favorable Thai clinch position.

I had a very hard time getting in a favorable position but eventually I did. One thing I can say about a good WC guy is that it's very hard to put them in a favorable position when clinching. (Muay Thai context).


My point being is this:

I have very little experience of what Roy Harris showed in this video. My actual trapping experience on Chi-Sao, Hubud, et al(if you would call it such) is less than an hour.

Rolando Garcia (4 Ranges in this forum) showed me some of the WC, Hubud stuff back in 2007 and how it relates and provides a safe framework for training clinch entries without fatiguing too much.

From what I see, and to reiterate what Paul Hopkins stated - it seems like sustainable training meant to help you understand reference points.

that being said, how much of these "trapping" drills should you include in your training? IMHO, not much. 5% at the very most.
10/11/12 8:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 812
If you are talking about training for actual assaults, no time should be spent on the drills Roy was demonstrating...Zero.

If you are not talking about actual assaults then spend as much time as you want on these type drills. They are a lot of fun, good communication between students and a nice warm up or cool down. It all depends on what your goal is.
10/11/12 10:21 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Siciliano
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/2/04
Posts: 1315
Makes me think that I should stop training my spider guard then . . .
10/12/12 9:52 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 813
I wouldn't do that. The movement of the spider guard is a common movement and all people use this movement to protect themselves. Even babies who have no idea of what the spider guard is will naturally move in this way. So it has commonality to all fights.
10/13/12 1:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Paul Hopkins
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2886
Babies should not be fighting imo.

And people should never have to recover from training. Take a minimalist approach to martial arts practice and enjoy life.

10/14/12 5:05 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Siciliano
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/2/04
Posts: 1329
Paul Hopkins,

Just a suggestion. If you're sick and tired of MA or not interested, then why even bother checking out these forums?
10/14/12 5:06 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Siciliano
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/2/04
Posts: 1330
JM,

I'll be trying out Hu-Bud & Chi-Sao tom. Will give my insights Monday morning.
10/15/12 1:28 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Paul Hopkins
16 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 2887
I said you clip of Roy looked like intelligent sustainable training. The kind of practice that won't tear down your body but will allow a person to engrain certain movements.

That is called a minimalist approach which I contrast with gearing up and beating the crap out of each other. How would it feel to walk out of the gym after a 2 hour balls out training session only to be forced to defend yourself while physically drained?

Olympic track and field coaches are using a minimalist approach with their athletes. I have worked weights and measures for the last three years and have had my ears open as the coaches compare notes. I see older coaches talk about mistakes they learned from and the "new" science they use to track athletes progress. They get more done in less time with fewer injuries. I believe Roy Harris works in a similar fashion

I am not sick and tired of training. I am just sick and tired :)

And I will stand by my statement that babies shouldn't fight. They have undeveloped ligaments and no kneecaps.
10/15/12 10:36 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Siciliano
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/2/04
Posts: 1335
Paul Hopkins,

My apologies for assuming you were trolling. Would you propose longer rounds for training chi or hubud then?

People who train the thai clinch don't go heavy with the knees at all but instead use the meaty part of their inner thigh to simulate knee strikes. It's sustainable to a degree but still very tiring if you do it 20 min non-stop.

JM,

Wasn't able to try it out this weekend. Weather wasn't cooperating. Ended up watching Metamoris Sunday afternoon. LOL.
10/15/12 6:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
lloydmtz
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/12/02
Posts: 93
Great insights by Paul. I been leaning that way as well. Making it more fun and playful as opposed to the "who's tougher" mentality. There's a time and a place for everything and after 30 years of doing this I have not had one serious injury and I equate that to having an awareness of one's own body as well as an understanding that there's no need to go 100% every day because I said it before "most people are training for a fight that will never come".

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.