UnderGround Forums
 

Boxing UnderGround >> The Wisdom of Charley Goldman.


8/29/12 9:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stickgrappler
1857 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 24578
 
My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of http://www.saddoboxing.com for posting this

----------------------------------------------------------

Charley Goldman was a pre-WWI bantamweight. He stood 5'1. He had over 130 fights and was by most accounts a competent journeyman though he did get a shot at the bantam crown on one occasion. Goldman retired at 29 due to among other things, terribly brittle hands.

But Goldman is far better known as the trainer of a series of undisputed champions. Middleweight Al McCoy, featherweight Joey Archibald and lightweight king Lou Ambers. Goldman is most well known as the man who shaped Rocky Marciano. In 1957 Goldman, Marciano and a manager, judo expert and writer named Al Bachman published a how to book. The book is just under 200m pages and loaded with insights on every element of the sport. It is clearly designed for the young man just taking up the game and is titled Rocky Marciano's Boy's Book of Boxing and Body Building.

One section really had me thinking after the fights of the last two weeks. It is authored by Goldman and is titled The Art of Infighting. He writes separately for the unusually tall and the unusually short fighter and goes so far, along with Marciano, to detail two fictional fights, one from each perspective, near the end of the book. But here I'll stick to the basic instruction. As usual these are Goldman's thoughts with mine in parenthesis.

Short Fighters
-With hands held reasonably high either bob, weave and shuffle towards the taller foe or take deliberate steps towards him while moving the head from side to side. (Think Joe Frazier for the former and Marvin Hagler for the latter)

-When the tall fighter leads, make him miss and then close until you are close to his stomach and let go short punches. (Making him miss is only half the task at hand. Turning it into an advantage is a must)

-"When you get inside, stay there!" (A mistake too many fighters make. They get inside, throw a few punches and then voluntarily retreat. Though not a short guy, Brandon Rios is a good example of a guy who when he gets inside stays there).

-"When you are close to [the taller foe] keep moving almost rushing forward at the same time shooting short chopping punches to the body. Your opponent will try to back away or hold on if he can. Don't let him. Keep ripping your arms away from his clinches and chopping those punches to his midriff. Also when in close push your opponent's arms away from the front of his body and outward." (I found the two bolded sections the most illuminating. I noted that 13 hadn't stepped inside, but completely missed that even if he had he had to rush forward to counter Wlad's retreat. The second bold we've seen how many times? Wlad grabs and the shorter foe goes completely passive. He doesn't battle for position or punching room at all. Now some of that is surely Wlad's strength, but nobody even tries to make him fight inside!)

Tall Fighters
-Long arms are a handicap in infighting. (Mr Paul Williams, calling Mr. Paul Williams!)

-If you (the tall man) are fighting a strong, shorter man who keeps rushing you? Grab his right arm in the crook of his elbow, underneath his bicep with your left glove. (Yup, ole Charley recommends the clinch! Why fight at a disadvantage?). The force the forearm between your right bicep and side.

-Keep your left foot between the shorter man's two feet and your right foot outside. Keep your body pivoted to the right. Now make your right arm do double duty and pound at the ribs with short shots. Now push the shorter man backwards and push his arms back as you do so. (Wlad does about half of this. He doesn't punch. He just clamps down until a break is called for).

Things for both to remember
-Do not keep your chin on the other guys's shoulder or above his head. Too big a chance of injury.

-When the referee calls break, take your right hand and push the other man away and then move to your right and fast with your hands up. (It's pretty obvious you don't want to stand in front of a guy, but how often do you see this?). As Goldman notes at the end of this section "Protect yourself at all times."
9/11/12 1:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
martinburke
194 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5685
One of the all-time great trainers. There are probably only a handful of trainers in history who would have not ruined Marciano in the process of "fixing" him.

Voted up. The fact that you're not in triple green digits for all you've done over the years tells a lot about this site.

9/11/12 5:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stickgrappler
1857 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 24597
You are too kind Martin! This voting up feature is new to me.

In the forum's defense, I've not been on here all that much in recent years.

Coincidentally right after 9/11/2001, I was on here almost every second of the day until like 2004 or so... then work picked up and got busy.

Since then, intermittently been on, depending on workflow. Sux that my new work firewalls added this forum to a list where i have to use "Quota Time" (4 hrs per day max) and each time it's a 15 mins window. Really handcuffed.
9/11/12 8:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
buddie
330 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5883
Stickgrappler, you are awesome. I echo what martin said. This is what the forum should be - sharing info that would otherwise be lost to the world.

Thank you!
9/14/12 1:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Ghost Of Swayze
37 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/5/12
Posts: 280
ttt
9/26/12 12:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
martinburke
194 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5695
Marciano tended to punch wide, so Goldman tucked towels under Rocky's arms and had him work the heavy bag without letting the towels drop.

9/26/12 1:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
buddie
330 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5923
I agree, good observation. By the time he fought Walcott the second time he seemed to have learned to punch shorter and more inside. The KO punch was described as "a punch Rocky wasn't supposed to be able to throw."
9/27/12 12:53 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
HULC
65 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 4291
martinburke - Marciano tended to punch wide, so Goldman tucked towels under Rocky's arms and had him work the heavy bag without letting the towels drop.


That reminds me of one of my early trainers who had me throwing jabs and left hooks on the pads whilst holding 1 tennis ball beneath my chin and another between me right elbow and body. :)

Excellent work Stickgrappler! You were one of the first writers who drew me and kept me on this site, and after all these years i'm still picking up fresh info. Whatever happened to boxingSHK?
9/27/12 9:31 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ya
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/25/09
Posts: 929
Thanks, voted up!
12/7/12 3:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
HayemakeredByHaye
260 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/27/02
Posts: 5988
ttt
12/7/12 11:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
chadk
159 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/12/03
Posts: 10493
Good post. Phone Post
3/20/13 9:47 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
martinburke
194 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5939
buddie - I agree, good observation. By the time he fought Walcott the second time he seemed to have learned to punch shorter and more inside. The KO punch was described as "a punch Rocky wasn't supposed to be able to throw."

After Marciano won the title, Goldman had him work on shortening his punches. The media didn't notice that, but there was some mention of Marciano not having the same one-shot power as he displayed pre-title.

On Sugar Ray Robinson:"Ray is what we call a combination puncher. He usually throws them in threes - bang, a left hook, a fast right hand; bang, another left hook. To get his power he's got to be moving in to do damage, the idea is to keep him backing up when you figure he's getting ready to throw that hard stuff. That's what we did with Servo both times against him. We broke up Robinson's style by keeping Servo low and charging in. We did pretty much the same thing with Kid Gavilan when he fought Ray the first time and he made it pretty close, too."

Analyzing Henry Armstrong, Goldman said: "Lou Ambers was a very good in-fighter, so we had him stay close to Henry and dig in with little short punches. If you backed off with Henry when he was good, it was certain suicide. He'd crowd you, then throw a powerful overhand right that would knock anybody out."

note: You can see in the films how Ambers would twist his hips and uppercutted inside of Armstrong's punches.

How Fritzie Zivic beat Armstrong: "Fritzie, one of the best all-around ring smarties, met Henry each time he 'took off' and stopped him cold with a flurry of his own uppercuts. He had figured the only way to cause Armstrong trouble, and he had the equipment to do it."
3/20/13 9:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
martinburke
194 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5940
"-Do not keep your chin on the other guys's shoulder or above his head. Too big a chance of injury."

Fighters used to always turn their heads sideways in close, so that if there was a clash of heads the cut would be on the side of the head and NOT over the eyes.

It's why so many of the old timers had cauliflower ears.

You don't need to see the other guy in close. You can feel what he's doing by his shifting weight...and yet we see guys ramming each other like two goats in almost every fight.

Modern evolution!
3/21/13 1:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stickgrappler
1857 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26584
HULC - 
martinburke - Marciano tended to punch wide, so Goldman tucked towels under Rocky's arms and had him work the heavy bag without letting the towels drop.


That reminds me of one of my early trainers who had me throwing jabs and left hooks on the pads whilst holding 1 tennis ball beneath my chin and another between me right elbow and body. :)

Excellent work Stickgrappler! You were one of the first writers who drew me and kept me on this site, and after all these years i'm still picking up fresh info. Whatever happened to boxingSHK?

sorry for super belated reply! been busy with work... so little time to surf all the subforums on here :(

Just to be clear, I write stuff from time to time, but my site is mostly what i've archived from what others wrote.

boxingSHK = Keith Palmer -- i've not been on here regularly, not sure if he posts regularly, am sure buddie or martin can chime in
3/21/13 1:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stickgrappler
1857 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26585
buddie - Stickgrappler, you are awesome. I echo what martin said. This is what the forum should be - sharing info that would otherwise be lost to the world.

Thank you!

UGH... sorry for super-belated reply buddie!

thank you kindly for your generous words!
3/21/13 1:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stickgrappler
1857 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26586

awesome martin! thank you! may i add that to my site?

already put up marbleheadmaui's post to my site

http://www.stickgrappler.net/2012/08/the-wisdom-of-charley-goldman.html

3/21/13 2:27 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
martinburke
194 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5950
Of course.

and Keith posts once every blue moon or so.

BTW, check out the article on Wes Ramey that he co-authored:

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0904-callispalmer.html
3/21/13 2:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
martinburke
194 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 5951
BTW, those quotes are from "Cornermen" by Ronald Fried
3/21/13 2:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stickgrappler
1857 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 26594
lol at me... i have that book (as well as IN THIS CORNER) but didn't read the Charley Goldman chapter. read Kevin Rooney's and Eddie Futch's first.

thank you! also will attribute to Fried's book.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.