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2/28/13 9:38 PM
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Lord Nitemare
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5 o clock shadow - Takedown,

I'd love to hear more about the Gurkhas. Can you tell us a bit more about their fighting tactics and the kukris? There are all kinds of insane stories about what the Gurkhas could do with their blades, but I'd like to separate fact from fiction.

Mick Collins,

Great post! LMFAO at your hippy prof who was more interested in yurt decorations!

I never read about the Mongols getting defeated in Europe by being lured into muddy terrain. That sounds like a dirty Mongol tactic! LOL at the Mongols getting out-Mongoled!

I have also heard arguments about European terrain being an impediment to the Mongol advance in Europe. I remember reading that the central forests and mountainous regions of Spain would pose some big obstacles. However, I think that the Mongols track record in temperate forests and mountains is pretty solid, and I don't think that European armies could have adapted to Mongol tactics quickly enough to repel them.

I also read that the Mongols were actually planning a full-scale invasion of Europe. IIRC, they were going to use the Hungarian plains as a nursery for the horses needed to invade Europe.

Lord Nitemare,

Great thread. I have really enjoyed reading your posts throughout.


fos

Thanks man

2/28/13 9:48 PM
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JkdSam
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JJitsu -  According to the Dan Carlin wrath of the Kahns podcast it was the Kahns, they only stopped their advance because the Kahn died and they all had to go back go Mongolia to vote a new Leader. Awesome podcast.

Weren't the Scythians supposed to be badass? Phone Post

Correct. The Mongolians with either Ghengis or Ogedei leading them would erase 99% of the world off the map if they chose to. As Dan said, on a top 10 list of greatest generals of all time, the Mongols had 2-3 of them in their army at once!

2/28/13 9:50 PM
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JkdSam
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Had Ogedei not died, it's very possible the the Roman Catholic church would not exist today - definitely it would be a shell of it's current self.

2/28/13 10:32 PM
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MickColins
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"Had Ogedei not died, it's very possible the the Roman Catholic church would not exist today - definitely it would be a shell of it's current self."

 

Don't know about that. One of Temujin's virtues was he was leniant towards religions. One of his best friends/blood brothers was a Christian. Both he and Ogodei had Christians around. Mongke Khan told a French diplomat that he'd give Jerusalem to the Christians if he decided to go west and conquer it. The Mongols were good at leaving certain infrastructure alone so it wouldn't effect the flow of trade/activity. They also would leave you alone if you paid protection. They were very open minded towards religion and usually tried to leave religious people alone. Well, most of them. When large numbers became Muslim, then they became a lot more belligerent. But, even then, other Muslims hated Muslim mongols who were dicks like Tamerlane.

 

As to the Mongols prospects in Europe, I still doubt they'd have had much success for a few reasons. The first I stated in the whole terrain issue. Secondly, European fixed fortifications were a whole different ball of wax than Middle Eastern or Chinese. The Mongols/Tartars that would raid into Europe for years as parts of various Khanates or Hordes always had issues with them. Genghis,Subotei and that crew of wreckers improved and became very good at cracking fortfications but they would be gone. And its not just about breaking into those castles/fortresses/etc... if you bypass them you are putting your own supply lines in peril. And the Mongols didn't have a navy cruising around the Med. One of the biggest problems that ancient to medieval armies would have to overcome were logistical. The Mongols knew how to survive in China and the Middle East. Keeping supply lines going in Europe as a Middle Eastern/Asian force where there are hundreds of castles and forts is problematic. The Mongols would have found the same problems as the Ottomans did as they got to Austria. Besieging is a problem but its also an issue because it pins your force down. While you are sitting there,digging tunnels and attempting breeches, a relief force could hammer you like the Holy League did to the Ottomans.

 

The other issue most seem to forget is that the Mongols were united for a wee bit. Keeping them together was like herding cats. 20 year after Ogodei died, you'd end up with Kublai and the Yuan, the Mongo-Turk Chagatei Khanate, The Golden Horde and the Hulagu Ilkhanate. You'd have needed them to stay unified for a chance. There was also previous steppe/cavalry heavy armies like the Huns and Magyars that attacked west and came upon problems and eventually pulled back/lost. The Europeans werent pussies.

3/1/13 12:02 AM
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karasu
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Geronimo and his band of Apache have earned their place on this thread :)

"Geronimo (Mescalero-Chiricahua: Goyaa?é [kòjà????] "one who yawns"; June 16, 1829 – February 17, 1909) was a prominent leader of the Bedonkohe Apache who fought against Mexico and the United States for their expansion into Apache tribal lands for several decades during the Apache Wars.

After an attack by a company of Mexican soldiers killed his mother, wife and three children in 1858, Geronimo joined revenge attacks on the Mexicans.[4] During his career as a war chief, he was notorious for consistently urging raids upon Mexican Provinces and their towns, and later against American locations across Arizona, New Mexico and western Texas.[5]

Geronimo's parents raised him according to Apache traditions

1858, a company of 400 Mexican soldiers from Sonora led by Colonel José María Carrasco attacked Goyahkla's camp outside Janos while the men were in town trading. Among those killed were his wife, children and mother. The loss of his family led Geronimo to hate all Mexicans for the rest of his life; he and his followers would frequently attack and kill any group of Mexicans that they encountered.

Geronimo's chief, Mangas Coloradas, sent him to Cochise's band for help in revenge against the Mexicans. It was during this incident that the name Geronimo came about. This appellation stemmed from a battle in which, ignoring a deadly hail of bullets, he repeatedly attacked Mexican soldiers with a knife.

"Late one afternoon when returning from town we were met by a few women and children who told us that Mexican troops from some other town had attacked our camp, killed all the warriors of the guard, captured all our ponies, secured our arms, destroyed our supplies, and killed many of our women and children. Quickly we separated, concealing ourselves as best we could until nightfall, when we assembled at our appointed place of rendezvous—a thicket by the river. Silently we stole in one by one: sentinels were placed, and, when all were counted, I found that my aged mother, my young wife, and my three small children were among the slain. There were no lights in camp, so without being noticed I silently turned away and stood by the river. How long I stood there I do not know, but when I saw the warriors arranging for a council I took my place. ”
—-Geronimo, Geronimo's story of his life, Kas-Ki-Yeh, 1909.[16]

“ I have killed many Mexicans; I do not know how many, for frequently I did not count them. Some of them were not worth counting. It has been a long time since then, but still I have no love for the Mexicans. With me they were always treacherous and malicious. ”
—-Geronimo, My Life: The Autobiography of Geronimo, 1905.[16]


“ After about a year some trouble arose between them and the Indians, and I took the war path as a warrior, not as a chief. I had not been wronged, but some of my people had been, and I fought with my tribe; for the soldiers and not the Indians were at fault. ”
—-Geronimo, Geronimo's story of his life, Coming of the White Men, 1909.[16]

At the end of his military career, he led a small band of 36 men, women, and children. They evaded thousands of Mexican and American troops for over a year, making him the most famous Native American of the time and earning him the title of the "worst Indian who ever lived" among white settlers.[20] According to James L. Haley, "About two weeks after the escape there was a report of a family massacred near Silver City; one girl was taken alive and hanged from a meat hook jammed under the base of her skull."[21] His band was one of the last major forces of independent Native American warriors who refused to accept the United States occupation of the American West.


“ General Crook said to me, "Why did you leave the reservation?" I said: "You told me that I might live in the reservation the same as white people lived. One year I raised a crop of corn, and gathered and stored it, and the next year I put in a crop of oats, and when the crop was almost ready to harvest, you told your soldiers to put me in prison, and if I resisted to kill me. If I had been let alone l would now have been in good circumstances, but instead of that you and the Mexicans are hunting me with soldiers". ”
—-Geronimo, Geronimo's story of his life, In Prison and on the war path, 1909.[4]


“ The Indians always tried to live peaceably with the white soldiers and settlers. One day during the time that the soldiers were stationed at Apache Pass I made a treaty with the post. This was done by shaking hands and promising to be brothers. Cochise and Mangus-Colorado did likewise. I do not know the name of the officer in command, but this was the first regiment that ever came to Apache Pass. This treaty was made about a year before we were attacked in a tent, as above related. In a few days after the attack at Apache Pass we organized in the mountains and returned to fight the soldiers. ”
—-Geronimo, Geronimo's story of his life, Coming of the White Men, 1909.[16]

In 1905, Geronimo agreed to tell his story to S. M. Barrett, Superintendent of Education in Lawton, Oklahoma. Barrett had to appeal to President Roosevelt to gain permission to publish the book. Geronimo came to each interview knowing exactly what he wanted to say. He refused to answer questions or alter his narrative.

Death
In February 1909, Geronimo was thrown from his horse while riding home, and had to lie in the cold all night before a friend found him extremely ill.[20] He died of pneumonia on February 17, 1909, as a prisoner of the United States at Fort Sill, Oklahoma.[26] On his deathbed, he confessed to his nephew that he regretted his decision to surrender.[20] His last words were reported to be said to his nephew, "I should have never surrendered. I should have fought until I was the last man alive."[27] He was buried at Fort Sill, Oklahoma in the Apache Indian Prisoner of War Cemetery.[22]"----

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geronimo
3/1/13 12:29 AM
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karasu
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being a man of peace......... the "best" Ancient Warriors IMHO are the ones that did NOT use WAR as an excuse to harm innocents.......

and I am guessing if such Warriors ever actually existed, they would belong to the religious Warrior-Monk traditions such as Knights Templar and Knights Hospitaller

3/1/13 12:53 AM
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GnP Sonnen
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Stop pointing out that they all can be beat. No shit they can, it shouldn't be a variable. Phone Post
3/1/13 1:05 AM
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Honald_Heagan
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Apache ain't ancient. Phone Post
3/1/13 6:48 AM
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anthonyMI
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Edited: 03/01/13 6:54 AM
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karasu - being a man of peace......... the "best" Ancient Warriors IMHO are the ones that did NOT use WAR as an excuse to harm innocents.......

and I am guessing if such Warriors ever actually existed, they would belong to the religious Warrior-Monk traditions such as Knights Templar and Knights Hospitaller
Nope, the Templar were pretty brutal. The Teutonic Order's Baltic Crusades made the Levantine Crusades look friendly and cordial in comparison.
3/1/13 8:41 AM
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Lord Nitemare
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Honald_Heagan -  Apache ain't ancient. Phone Post

I should have never put ancient, instead I should have simply put best warriors of all time. Sorry.

3/1/13 8:42 AM
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Lord Nitemare
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anthonyMI - 
karasu - being a man of peace......... the "best" Ancient Warriors IMHO are the ones that did NOT use WAR as an excuse to harm innocents.......

and I am guessing if such Warriors ever actually existed, they would belong to the religious Warrior-Monk traditions such as Knights Templar and Knights Hospitaller
Nope, the Templar were pretty brutal. The Teutonic Order's Baltic Crusades made the Levantine Crusades look friendly and cordial in comparison.

Dish homie

3/1/13 10:06 AM
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anthonyMI
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Basically, the Baltic region was the last part of Europe to become Christian. In order to deal with the pagans in Prussia, Poland asked the Pope for help and sent sent the Teutonic order, which had already been fighting the Muslims. What resulted was a campaign of conversion by the sword which included quite a bit of ethnic cleansing, with a huge part of the Prussian population either dead or displaced. From there they turned Prussia into their own State where they could rule with complete autonomy. After they conquered Prussia they then moved on to warring against Livonia and Lithuania. Since they were fighting Pagans, they decided that the already lax rules of medieval warfare were off the table. We are talking 200 years of near-continuous war driven by a mixture of religious zealotry with an influx of the second sons of German nobility with no land of their own and a chance to kill in order to get some. It was also a big source for the slave trade because of prohibitions against using other Christians as slaves.

Much like the Levantine Crusades were originally meant to help defend the Byzantine Empire but ended up sacking Constantinople, the Tuetonic Knights eventually went to war with Poland and conquered the northern part of it. They also went to war with Novgorod. Alexander Nevski made his name as a Russian folk hero beating them back.

They are the bad guys of most Northeast European national folklore.
3/1/13 11:40 AM
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Takedown
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5 o clock shadow - Takedown,

I'd love to hear more about the Gurkhas. Can you tell us a bit more about their fighting tactics and the kukris? There are all kinds of insane stories about what the Gurkhas could do with their blades, but I'd like to separate fact from fiction.

Mick Collins,

Great post! LMFAO at your hippy prof who was more interested in yurt decorations!

I never read about the Mongols getting defeated in Europe by being lured into muddy terrain. That sounds like a dirty Mongol tactic! LOL at the Mongols getting out-Mongoled!

I have also heard arguments about European terrain being an impediment to the Mongol advance in Europe. I remember reading that the central forests and mountainous regions of Spain would pose some big obstacles. However, I think that the Mongols track record in temperate forests and mountains is pretty solid, and I don't think that European armies could have adapted to Mongol tactics quickly enough to repel them.

I also read that the Mongols were actually planning a full-scale invasion of Europe. IIRC, they were going to use the Hungarian plains as a nursery for the horses needed to invade Europe.

Lord Nitemare,

Great thread. I have really enjoyed reading your posts throughout.


fos

5 o clock shadow:

Well, the kukri is basically the Nepali version of the Swiss Army knife. It's a multipurpose blade used in hunting, war & domestically. It has a lot of bloody mystique behind it based upon the accounts of former British officers who commanded Gurkha regiments. Examples-2 Gurkhas fighting for the British snuck up on a Sepoy during the 1857 Sepoy Mutiny. 1 Gurkha held the Sepoy while the 2nd Gurkha lopped his head off w/the kukri. During WWII, a Gurkha sergeant took it upon himself to do a night recon/massacre session where he beheaded 57 Germans during the N. Africa campaign. He was actually awarded the Victoria Cross. Last, Gurkhas went on a revenge mission at Gallipoli where some of their comrades were shot by Turkish forces.

In terms of military tactics, I really didn't focus as much on that as I did context, their conscription by the British under martial races theory, Gurkha regimental cultures, similarities shared between the British & Gurkhas, subedars (retired Gurkhas) who returned to Nepal following their military service abroad & some historical discrepancies between British & Nepali historical accounts re: Gurkhas. But, to answer your question, it seems that their military training took shape under Byrnes & Bell, two British deserters who trained the Gurkhas (Gould, Imperial Warriors, 38).

If you want, I can email you my paper so I don't make this into a FRAT post.
3/1/13 11:47 AM
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MickColins
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The Teutonic Knights were pretty insane. It wasn't just pagans, they fought Orthodox and other Catholics,too. Funfact: Technically, the order still exists today in both protestant and catholic forms, though the Catholic one is mostly made up of nuns,I've been told.

3/1/13 11:52 AM
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Takedown
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Edited: 03/01/13 12:02 PM
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Forgot to add on my post re: Gurkhas @ Gallipoli, they charged directly into the Turkish position w/kukris & beheaded them.


Also, I did notice in one of the earlier posts on here that someone mentioned the Sikhs modified their religious practices on the battlefield. The Gurkhas actually did this. Instead of performing a full ceremonial cleansing (disrobing, washing), they washed their faces & hands before eating meals during war. This ensured they were ready for enemy attack. The Sikhs actually performed full ritual cleansing in war, which obviously left them vulnerable. It's entirely possible that Sikhs eventually modified their cleansing ritual, so I'm curious if they borrowed this idea from the Gurkhas, or vice versa.
3/1/13 12:48 PM
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Lord Nitemare
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Is it true that a Gurkha can only pull out his blade with the intention of drawing blood? And if he doesn't he cuts the knuckles of his hand?

ive heard this a gang load of times, always wondered if it was bs or not.

3/1/13 2:41 PM
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NeoSpartan
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This thread is so awesome
3/1/13 11:24 PM
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Takedown
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Edited: 03/02/13 2:01 AM
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<blockquote>Lord Nitemare - <p>
Is it true that a Gurkha can only pull out his blade with the intention of drawing blood? And if he doesn't he cuts the knuckles of his hand?</p>
<p>
ive heard this a gang load of times, always wondered if it was bs or not.

Pretty much bs my fren. As I mentioned earlier, the kukri is an all-purpose "tool" used in war, hunting & domestically (cutting veggies, meat, wood, etc.). Again, it's something that I would attribute to the "Gurkha mystique" created in large part by British literature/periodicals. That isn't to detract from the fact that Gurkhas are a very austere warrior caste of the Nepali people.

I leave you with these links for your reading enjoyment:

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/shrestha.html

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/pun.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8-LRxSl9aw

Now, back to my Friday night Belgian IPA....
3/2/13 6:05 AM
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PeterIrl
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karasu - being a man of peace......... the "best" Ancient Warriors IMHO are the ones that did NOT use WAR as an excuse to harm innocents.......

and I am guessing if such Warriors ever actually existed, they would belong to the religious Warrior-Monk traditions such as Knights Templar and Knights Hospitaller


You might want to do a bit of reading before you hold those guys up as a beacon of true virtue and morality...
3/2/13 7:33 AM
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Lord Nitemare
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^ The Apache were incredibly badass, does anyone know anything about the Mohawk - they're probably the second most fearsome Native American tribe.

3/2/13 8:33 AM
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billydeewilliams
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The Mohawk may have been fearsome as well as the Apache, but the Comanche were the most lethal and feared native Americans. Phone Post
3/2/13 8:42 AM
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Lord Nitemare
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billydeewilliams -  The Mohawk may have been fearsome as well as the Apache, but the Comanche were the most lethal and feared native Americans. Phone Post

Comanche were some bad motherfuckers...but I still have a hard on for the Mohawk ever since I saw Last of the Mohicans.

3/2/13 9:19 AM
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Lord Nitemare
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Bump for  any info on Mohawks

 

...I think I might delve into older special operations units later, or the predecessors to modern special operations units, like Darby's Rangers, the OSS, (personal favorite) the Devil's Brigade, the British Commandoes of WWII, the Brandenburghers and the Italian combat divers of WWII. While they're not ancient, they're still relatively old by today's standards not to mention they are very, very badass.

 

in regards to actually ancient units, I only know of the Skirite Rangers, Roman combat swimmers (Germanic hordes turned ancient SEALs), and a Viking mercenary group - unfortunately I cannot remember their name.

3/2/13 9:23 AM
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Lord Nitemare
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And while we're on the subject, who's watching Vikings?

 

3/2/13 9:26 AM
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Lord Nitemare
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KlmSiRJZEco


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