UnderGround Forums
 

HolyGround >> Why were Adam and Eve forced to leave Eden?


9/9/12 6:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1461
Jesus was right to indicate he didn't want most people to understand the Hebrew Scripters because the Israelite community educated their tribesman whereas other cultures did not.  He was right to say that unless you had an educated teacher to teach the person being educated wouldn't "get it".  But the Israelite Community in the Desert as well as the Israelite Community in the Land of Israel did educated the masses, which is something the surrounding cultures did not do.  My guess is when Christianity formulated and did forced conversions that idea of educating the masses would ultimately work against them.  

I read commentary after commentary and one thing I've learned is with some concentrate on the meaning of each word, some concentrate on the meaning of each sentence, some concentrate on meaning within context and some have overarching themes and meanings which make the compartmentalized words and sentences seem dry and void of meaning - but make up for it with the overarching message.  

I believe the immediate answer as to why G-d kicked Adam & Eve out of the Garden is answered in the Scripture itself as was previously indicated.  But in light of that, I'm sensing that the overarching theme Christianity says is the answer gets imposed making it's ultimate message meaningless in context.  Christianity - I think - would agree the reason Adam & Eve were kicked out was because of Genesis 3:14-3:19.  But the overarching theme is that humanity needs to be redeemed because of the sin which cast them out which will generate a series of imperfect prophets culminating in Jesus Christ the Christian Massiah.  

Now if you accept Jesus as the Massiah then I would guess the Hebrew Scriptures would be meaningless because why would I need to know Why Adam & Eve were kicked out of the Garden when if Jesus is the ultimate conclusion?  I'd just start my learning from Jesus as everything else would be incidental.  But if you don't, then the previous books of the Bible might hold meaning and could impact your life today.  I guess you'd have to know if you want to find out about the Hebrew Scriptures on their own terms NOT dependant on Jesus to find out any other interpretation that would hold truth today.


9/10/12 12:51 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ridgeback
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/07
Posts: 29834
 If you are a Jew then by all means read your scriptures as a Jew, but a Christian is called to see Christ in the scriptures, and that means there is a second meaning to them that is not merely a surface level thing.  The story of Adam and Eve is a rather provincial and typically silly myth on the surface, with jealous gods afraid of human power and a talking serpent that is simply a clever animal and not Satan.  A Christian reading of the myth takes it to a much more profound place, with humanity falling out of communion with God and falling out of harmony with nature.  In early Christian theology Jesus is the "tree of life" so a literal tree of life in a literal garden makes no sense.  There are very old icons depicting Jesus as the tree of life.  
9/10/12 1:27 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jrrrrr
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 09/10/12 3:26 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1115
The story or adam and eve is far more complicated than how we are taking it.

The story reflects what g-d intended for man in the first place. The intent was that he, g-d, would teach man himself. THere was to be no religion in the way we think or religion, it would just be us and him.
Our inclinations to good or bad was to be equal, otherwise there is no real freedom of choice. THe concept of us being in g-d's image is directly involved in us being able to raise ourselves higher than anyone else and being able to choose between good and evil.

Of course we screwed it up.... I think that is when he realized that he needed to set some understandings of what good and bad were...cause we weren't necessarly getting it...
What is the goal - to go to g-d and to go away from evil.
9/10/12 3:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gord96
57 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/11/12 9:41 PM
Member Since: 3/26/03
Posts: 14002
....
9/10/12 9:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1463
Ridgeback -  If you are a Jew then by all means read your scriptures as a Jew, but a Christian is called to see Christ in the scriptures, and that means there is a second meaning to them that is not merely a surface level thing.  The story of Adam and Eve is a rather provincial and typically silly myth on the surface, with jealous gods afraid of human power and a talking serpent that is simply a clever animal and not Satan.  A Christian reading of the myth takes it to a much more profound place, with humanity falling out of communion with God and falling out of harmony with nature.  In early Christian theology Jesus is the "tree of life" so a literal tree of life in a literal garden makes no sense.  There are very old icons depicting Jesus as the tree of life.  

When the text appeared, the audience was EVERYONE - hence it appearing in a desert.  It was never meant to belong to one group and not another.  Not even the Jews! - My belief -  By saying Christians must read Jesus in the text or they are not Christians, I guess, is just as crazy as saying it is actually Obama (the second coming haha). Seriously, by imposing people into the texts bypasses all its meanings and layers of meaning and imposing the personality & attributes of the one you are imposing. What that ultimately means is the text must point to the study of Jesus as G-d (G-d Forbid!) to really learn the text when it validates itself! 

Yes, the text validates itself.  Here's an example.  I read in the Zohar that Moshe' was a reincarnation of Abel.  Abel sacrificed a sheep where as Moshe' accounted for each & every one he had.  See how that's a stretch but it's validating?  Where, in the Text itself, does it show that it's Jesus & not G-d?  If you say they're one in the same then that still proves nothing.  You're going to say that a text written a millenia later will say Jesus is G-d therefore it's Jesus talking to Adam & Eve?  Really?  Not only does my religious compass deny that but my sense of reasoning does too.  & you also can't say that's the leap of faith one needs to make as a Christian or to be a Christian then I'd say then that's exactly what's wrong with Christianity.  That would mean blind following & I guess, if that's where youre at then, it's sad, but it's not for me.

But one would never know it if they just Jump to Jesus and not learn the Text on it's own terms.  If you read Karen Armstrong you'd probably read jealous gods afraid of human power.  I would really like to know who would read the serpant being a "clever creature".  The idea Humanity fell out of communion with G-d is in part of the story before the flood.  That shouldn't be viewed as some deep insight.  Jesus being the Tree of Life is just as likely as Shakespear.  It's an imposed point of view.  I'd really lke to know how that conclusion is deduced.  I see the Tree of Life as being the illumination one gets from experiencing the knowledge gained from learing the text.  The Tree of Life isn't G-d - the Tree isn't saying or dictating anything.  It's something one would consume or integrate or, go to, for sustenance but this is how we know G-d is beyond nature.


9/21/12 3:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1470
Banashment from the Garden of Eden cannot be understood as a punishment in any simple way.  Verse 22 makes it clear that Man must leave the Garden, not because of his disobedience, but because he is no longer fit to eat from the Tree of Life. 

22 And the Lord G-d said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and bad:  and now, lest hi put forth his hand; and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.  23 Therefore the Lord G-d sent him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

This is not only part of the fundamental lack of law prior to the flood but also lays the condition under which law is possible.  When G-d gives the reasons for Man's having to leave the Garden he makes no mention of past actions.  His only concern is that man not live forever.  If there is no punishment in the strict sense of the word then there could have been no law in the strict sense of the word.  G-d's earlier statement concerning the Tree of Knowledge can only be understood as advice or as warning., but not as law.

When man ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Bad he became a political being, aware of the distinction between the ruler and the ruled.  But such a distinction would become both frightening and meaningless without death.  Rulers would become harsh, but men would have no reason to obey.  The knowledge of mortality is the safeguard against injustice in the political world since it promotes both the obedience of the subject and the justice of the ruler.  Death is the prime requisite for political life.  Life without death would be either beneath or beyond the political.  A Commentary on the Book of Genesis by Robert D. Sacks

Man must now live in the conciousness of his own mortality.  He may be tempted to change his condition by artificial means, rather than by restoring the ruptured harmony between the devine will and human will, the harmony that is ultimately the definition of paradise.  The JPS Torah Commentary
9/22/12 2:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
RoninBT
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/9/05
Posts: 71
770

That’s an interesting perspective on the non-existence of pre flood law relative to punishment but I would have to disagree with your reasoning. Exile from the garden was not the only consequence of their actions. The serpent, the woman & Adam are clearly punished / cursed in Gen 3:14-19. And the statement “You shall not eat” or "You must not eat" does not sound like mere advice but is most certainly a warning.

WARNING: If we break His law then there are consequences / punishment. Torah is riddled with such statements. To live in His house / garden we must follow His rules / laws. This is no different in my house and I suspect no different in yours. As I read my bible I find this to be true from the beginning of time till the end.

Hillbilly Torah Commentary by Bydge
9/24/12 12:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1472
RoninBT

I agree they are all punished.  The biblical verdict is unequivical.  Once we deny responsibility and define ourselves as victims, paradise is lost.  

With freedom is born responsibility.  Humans are the only indeterminant beings.  If we are not free - if what we do is the result of natural laws, inexorable forces beyond our control - then we are not responsible.  I may be unfortunate, but I am not guilty. for things I could not help doing.  Freedom, choice, moral agency, accountability, merit, guilt, retributive justice, atonement and forgiveness are interlocking concepts that were born together.

Creation is pictured to us in 7  phases or days.  It is fundamental concern is the order of things.  It is intended less a protoscientific document than as a spiritual metaphysical affirmation whose fundamental concern is order.  On the first three days G-d creates a series of domains, day & night, Heaven & Earth, sea & land.  On the second 3 days he fills each domain with its appropriate objects, sun & moon, birds & fish, animals & humankind.  The result is ontological harmony. 

G-d creates order man creates chaos.  Sin involves crossing a boundary, entering fobidden territory, failing to respect the separation between defferent spaces and times.  Adam & Eve transgress the boundary between permitted and forbidden foods; Cain transgresses the boundary of human life itself.  The punishment or conseqence of sin is exile.  The measure-for measure result of an act in the wrong place is that the agent finds him- or herself in the wrong place, in exile, not at home in the world.  So Adam and Eve are exiled from Eden, Cain from habitation and eventually the Israelites from their land. 

Justice in the Hebrew Bible is more than a matter of law.  It resotres a broken order.  Buy suffering the wrong one inflicts on others, the wrong doer comes to feel remorse. 

Paraphrased sections of works by Rabbi Jonathan Sacks. 

What I get from this is that humans are inherently flawed creatures. People believe the Bible is about obiedience and a seeking of perfection.  The idea being G-d has Orders in our world - If we transgress them we break down that perfection and/or get into trouble.  Which of course we did then and do today.  But more than seeking perfection in humanity it is a prescription of a higher calling and it then becomes more relatable to us today.  It prescribes Hope into human political affairs.  What it does is it takes the individual, empowers the individual and says, 'Somewhere above you, there is a transcendent God who is not controlled by the king or by the priests or by the military, a power in the world that is able to hear you, and that is going to allow you to develop your understanding of what's right, and of the way the world should develop.' All of human history has proceeded from that first spark of hope that appears in the Hebrew scriptures.

Paraphrased work of Yoram Hazony
9/27/12 11:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Grakman
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/21/08
Posts: 4377
Well, when you put it that way....
9/28/12 12:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ridge hand
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/14/12
Posts: 43
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts. (2 Peter 3:3)

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (Psalm 14:1)
9/28/12 11:25 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1473

Nick Fury nailed it!  Pardon the pun...

Christianity makes Judaism look prett silly.  Atheism - through the lense of Christianity - makes Judaism look even sillier.  Judaism needs to stand on its own, totally divorced from Christianity, to make sense. 

9/28/12 9:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jrrrrr
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1137
770mdm - 

Nick Fury nailed it!  Pardon the pun...

Christianity makes Judaism look prett silly.  Atheism - through the lense of Christianity - makes Judaism look even sillier.  Judaism needs to stand on its own, totally divorced from Christianity, to make sense. 


770, this makes no sense at all. Am I misunderstanding something?

If you look at what jesus said, many of the same concepts come directly from jewish scripture. When christian leaders are quoting psalms and proverbs, you realize all that comes from jewish scripture...right....
10/3/12 11:39 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
770mdm
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/24/08
Posts: 1474

Don't have much of a problem with what Jesus said because you are right - a great many things, if not everything he said, came from either Jewish literature or Jewish culture.  It's the lense with which Christians view these texts is what I cringe at.  For instance - the perspective changes when one see's Jesus as being married or not or if Jesus is G-d himself (G-d Forbid!).  Those perspectives imposed on these same texts change the meanings from how the Hebrew Scriptures validate themselves vs. jumping off those lessons to trying to validate the NT. 


Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.