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S&C UnderGround >> Switch from whey to plant protein?


10/1/12 11:30 PM
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turducken
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" Certain plant protiens can be good, but can't substitute what you get in whey protien."

this is 100% false. there is nothing magical about whey. it just provides a well balanced source of amino acids and you can easily get the same amino acids from vegan sources, such as with that vega protein i mentioned in my first post.
10/2/12 7:49 AM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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smichal - Everyone has their thing, however for quality of the protien itself, besides actually eating meat, nothing beats whey as far as what I've read. Certain plant protiens can be good, but can't substitute what you get in whey protien. That is unless you buy into the China study/Forks over knives stuff. But the studies involved in that material involve casien protien, unless I'm mistaken.

I use a product called Isagenix. It's basically sold through network marketing distribution, but that doesn't bother me. The product itself is genuinely top class.

My cousin is a doctor who is into longevity, and contrary to my views, believes you should restrict animal protien to no more than 20% of your food intake. He uses the vegasport product.

I buy into the paleo way of eating, but love my breads and pasta too much.

you're absolutely wrong on every single point...

what does "good mean"...what does "i buy into paleo but eat bread" that's nonsense. that means you haven't even done it LONG ENOUGH to know if you're benefiting from it. Or if you did you went back to eating breads and pastas, thus negating any progress you may have made..

pea/rice combo, complete protein so it's not "good" but "complete" and more bio-available than any animal protein outside of whey by a TINY margin. chickpeas/whole grain, another complete protein. the list goes on and on. and just as bio-available systemically. 

this is why these threads get annoying because one person asks for advice from people who have experience with it and we get posts like this. It's not a personal attack by any means but you're talking about "my cousin said" and " as far as I've read"....I can show you reads that claim the Earth is flat and the Squatch is real.

10/2/12 10:56 AM
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big_slacker
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Although he didn't state it that well, it's true that whey is more bio-available than plant proteins. The issue with whey is it's side effects in so many people. The bloating, mucus production and other allergenic responses. I can attest to these first hand as I suffered through them for years.

And when you consider that the pea/rice protein combo has so close to the same numbers as to not make any practical difference and without the side effects its a wonder that even meat eaters aren't using it instead. Even guys like Berardi who make heavy use of meats and protein supps in their recommended diets have witten articles about whey and mention using rice protein. Check it:

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/members/showthread.php?t=9007

The site below gives a really good breakdown on the pros and cons of each protein type. Although I dislike how some vegan sites continually mention fat and cholesterol content of meat which as we know doesn't always equate to higher fat/cholesterol content in the body.

http://www.nutribodyprotein.com/protein-types.php

About paleo, I've read Cordain's and Taubes books and experimented with it myself when I was having my energy level problems. The diet itself seems ok from a nutritional perspective, although I think the whole 'paleo' thing is marketing gimmick. Meat was not available in such large proportions to our ancestors and no large percentage of the people doing the diet are eating organ meat, brains, eyeballs, etc... It's a good bet that many of our 'paleo' ancestors ate a high percentage of foraged fruits, roots and other edible plants along with whatever small game they could get and OCCASIONAL large game.

FWIW the diet didn't help me, I was still drained and also found it hard to sustain, even after a month and settling in to the diet it still took extreme discipline to not eat grains. I can't vouch for anyone else, but I don't have meat cravings whatsoever eating a vegan diet. I really only eat meat when I'm at some get together and that's what a friend spent hours slaving over to present for dinner.
10/2/12 11:01 AM
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jeremy hamilton
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ArthurKnoqOut - 
smichal - Everyone has their thing, however for quality of the protien itself, besides actually eating meat, nothing beats whey as far as what I've read. Certain plant protiens can be good, but can't substitute what you get in whey protien. That is unless you buy into the China study/Forks over knives stuff. But the studies involved in that material involve casien protien, unless I'm mistaken.

I use a product called Isagenix. It's basically sold through network marketing distribution, but that doesn't bother me. The product itself is genuinely top class.

My cousin is a doctor who is into longevity, and contrary to my views, believes you should restrict animal protien to no more than 20% of your food intake. He uses the vegasport product.

I buy into the paleo way of eating, but love my breads and pasta too much.

you're absolutely wrong on every single point...

what does "good mean"...what does "i buy into paleo but eat bread" that's nonsense. that means you haven't even done it LONG ENOUGH to know if you're benefiting from it. Or if you did you went back to eating breads and pastas, thus negating any progress you may have made..

pea/rice combo, complete protein so it's not "good" but "complete" and more bio-available than any animal protein outside of whey by a TINY margin. chickpeas/whole grain, another complete protein. the list goes on and on. and just as bio-available systemically. 

this is why these threads get annoying because one person asks for advice from people who have experience with it and we get posts like this. It's not a personal attack by any means but you're talking about "my cousin said" and " as far as I've read"....I can show you reads that claim the Earth is flat and the Squatch is real.


How much Pea/Rice would a person have to consume to get 30grams of protein or so? It's quite easy to get that much through whey, is it just as easy from pea/rice?
10/2/12 11:04 AM
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Nalaan
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Yall supplementing for B vitamin?
10/2/12 11:23 AM
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Charles T Rose
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Warrior blend has the same amino profile as whey,if you just try rice protein you will be disappoint IMO
10/3/12 3:21 PM
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smichal
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ArthurKnoqOut - 
smichal - Everyone has their thing, however for quality of the protien itself, besides actually eating meat, nothing beats whey as far as what I've read. Certain plant protiens can be good, but can't substitute what you get in whey protien. That is unless you buy into the China study/Forks over knives stuff. But the studies involved in that material involve casien protien, unless I'm mistaken.

I use a product called Isagenix. It's basically sold through network marketing distribution, but that doesn't bother me. The product itself is genuinely top class.

My cousin is a doctor who is into longevity, and contrary to my views, believes you should restrict animal protien to no more than 20% of your food intake. He uses the vegasport product.

I buy into the paleo way of eating, but love my breads and pasta too much.

you're absolutely wrong on every single point...

what does "good mean"...what does "i buy into paleo but eat bread" that's nonsense. that means you haven't even done it LONG ENOUGH to know if you're benefiting from it. Or if you did you went back to eating breads and pastas, thus negating any progress you may have made..

pea/rice combo, complete protein so it's not "good" but "complete" and more bio-available than any animal protein outside of whey by a TINY margin. chickpeas/whole grain, another complete protein. the list goes on and on. and just as bio-available systemically. 

this is why these threads get annoying because one person asks for advice from people who have experience with it and we get posts like this. It's not a personal attack by any means but you're talking about "my cousin said" and " as far as I've read"....I can show you reads that claim the Earth is flat and the Squatch is real.


Yes I'm talking about "my cousin said" when he's a doctor who has his own anti-aging clinic. Besides I quoted him as someone who disagrees with my views to add balance to my personal opinion.

I've spoken to anti-aging experts, both practical and research based, who disagree with you on the bio-availability of plant protien vis-a-vis whey protien & maintain that whey is a superior source of protien. Though you appear to be privy to technical information that apparently disagrees with this.

The paleo comment isn't nonesense. All I'm saying is that there is intellectual "buy in" from myself, however I haven't been disciplined enough to implement it into my actual diet.

My apology's if I shouldn't have given my personal opinion onthe matter, I thought this was a forum for this sort of thing. On a more serious note, I do apologize for how poorly written my previous post, and possibly this one, was/is.
10/3/12 3:31 PM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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Edited: 10/03/12 3:34 PM
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jeremy hamilton - 
ArthurKnoqOut - 
smichal - Everyone has their thing, however for quality of the protien itself, besides actually eating meat, nothing beats whey as far as what I've read. Certain plant protiens can be good, but can't substitute what you get in whey protien. That is unless you buy into the China study/Forks over knives stuff. But the studies involved in that material involve casien protien, unless I'm mistaken.

I use a product called Isagenix. It's basically sold through network marketing distribution, but that doesn't bother me. The product itself is genuinely top class.

My cousin is a doctor who is into longevity, and contrary to my views, believes you should restrict animal protien to no more than 20% of your food intake. He uses the vegasport product.

I buy into the paleo way of eating, but love my breads and pasta too much.

you're absolutely wrong on every single point...

what does "good mean"...what does "i buy into paleo but eat bread" that's nonsense. that means you haven't even done it LONG ENOUGH to know if you're benefiting from it. Or if you did you went back to eating breads and pastas, thus negating any progress you may have made..

pea/rice combo, complete protein so it's not "good" but "complete" and more bio-available than any animal protein outside of whey by a TINY margin. chickpeas/whole grain, another complete protein. the list goes on and on. and just as bio-available systemically. 

this is why these threads get annoying because one person asks for advice from people who have experience with it and we get posts like this. It's not a personal attack by any means but you're talking about "my cousin said" and " as far as I've read"....I can show you reads that claim the Earth is flat and the Squatch is real.


How much Pea/Rice would a person have to consume to get 30grams of protein or so? It's quite easy to get that much through whey, is it just as easy from pea/rice?

 

it's isolates so, yes. a scoop would be 30 grams, sir.

 

edit: http://www.truenutrition.com/p-1115-gemma-pea-protein-isolate-non-gmo-1lb.aspx? <--pea gives you 24.6 grams of protein per 30 gram scoops

vs

grass fed whey http://www.truenutrition.com/p-4401-grass-fed-whey-protein-1lb-milk.aspx? is 24 grams of protein per 30 gram schoop so apparently pea protein has more albeit minimal difference :)

 

 

supplementing b vitaminS, it's not a single vitamin and it's vitamin b12 that's supposedly the problem but doesn't come from animal sources as much as it does from BACTERIA, and supplementing with nutritional yeast solves that...

 

smichal I think you've misunderstood what I've meant to say, TBH. It's not about being privy to any technical information, brother, it's the fact that whatever studies I've seen on the matter state that whey is number one bio-available protein/AA profile followed EXTREMELY closely by pea-protein. 

 

 

10/3/12 4:19 PM
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smichal
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Thanks for the clarification AKO. Probably should have taken the time to read more carefully.
10/3/12 5:39 PM
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big_slacker
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BTW-On this same topic what do you guys think about Arian Foster? Much was made about his switch to vegan in the offseason, but he seems to be performing just fine so far.
10/4/12 4:54 AM
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LiveFromThe7x7
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Subbed Phone Post
10/4/12 6:04 AM
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Andy the man
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Whey Protein, like most supplements, is a waste of money.

Stick to real foods, milk etc.
10/4/12 11:40 AM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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I was actually going to post what Andy has just stated (well 5 hours ago). I don't even see the need for protein "supplementation" unless you somehow don't have access to food or protein sources.

 

I buy the previously linked true-nutrition protein for a. after work out recovery because I believe a 4:1 carb to protein ratio in a liquid form allows my blood and lymph to do it's job of repairing my body whilst not being diverted to the GI tract or b. If I am on the go all day and don't have a chance to eat some food, I will make a greens and protein shake with about 30-50 grams of protein and a shitload of nutrients from greens (maybe include a carb source like an apple, or pineapple in there) and consume it for the x amount of hours I am on the go.

 

cheers!

10/4/12 11:49 AM
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jeremy hamilton
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^^^ What about for very large humans with a lot of lean body mass?

Getting enough protein can be tough sometimes through only food.
10/4/12 12:55 PM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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jeremy hamilton - ^^^ What about for very large humans with a lot of lean body mass?

Getting enough protein can be tough sometimes through only food.

I had to VTFU for using "lean body mass" not just "a person who weighs a lot". 

Can it really? I mean I know we've had this discussion in the "protein absorbtion" thread. but let's take the higher  numbers for maintenance at 2 grams per kilo of lean body mass and let's take someone like...Brock Lesnar maybe? He's not all that lean really so let's say he has a BFP of 12% (for arguments sake)  and is about 280? So, that's roughly 127 kilos * 2 = 254 grams of protein.

about 4 ounces of beef (a small portion for americans) is about 30 grams? Let's say he has a big dinner (and he is a BIG boy) and has a 16 ounce steak. So, just from that one steak alone he gets 120 grams of protein or about half of his daily needs for maintenance/growth even. 

Let's say his breakfast would be 2 cups of oatmeal, that's another 30-40 grams of protein. Or if his breakfast is half a dozen eggs, that's also about 30-40+ grams of protein.

Again, in my experience working with athletes and the average Joe Shmoe, you simply don't need as much as the supplment industry will have you believe with 2+ grams per POUND of lean body mass..

but let's ignore everything I've just said and go with "the very large human with a lot of lean body mass" how many of us are really that large of humans? And if they really need it then sure, go ahead and supplement =)

10/4/12 1:55 PM
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jeremy hamilton
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Thanks, very good breakdown.

I pretty much agree with what you wrote. For myself, I don't really find much of a difference between eating high protein/Low Carb, or Moderate Protein/High Carb. Both are fine as long as I am getting enough calories.

But...

Brock Lesnar has probably been eating way above the recommended protein amount for most of his life. I wonder if he would have the same physique if he wasn't. Or any BBer for that matter.

This kind of thing could probably be debated forever though because I would think all the evidence would be anecdotal.

Sorry to hijack.
10/4/12 6:22 PM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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Edited: 10/04/12 6:35 PM
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It's not only anecdotal but both sides of the argument have great science to back their findings...check this out (it's a FRAT if I've ever seen one but if you're a geek like me then you'll love it)

 

http://exrx.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4007

higher protein debator: Dr. John Berardi of Precision Nutrtion

.8-1.2 (lower/moderate) protein debator: Dr. Stuart Phillips who is more of a proponent of TIMING.

edit: When I said that Brock is 280, I never clarified if that's lean or total on the scale, 

so let's say he's 280 on the scale and with 12% body fat, his lean muscle mass is ~250 pounds so his protein needs just went down another 15 grams or so :)

10/11/12 10:34 AM
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Taku
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Hey AKO,

I am interested in the plant-based protein you mentioned. I like meat, and do not feel I have any negative effects from it. However, I would like to avoid artificial sweetners etc. Are the plant proteins you mentioned pretty "clean" in this respect?

Thanks,

TAKU

10/11/12 11:11 AM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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yes, brother.

the TN brand itself always try for the highest quality possible hence their grass-fed sources of whey and non-GMO pea isolate. In other words, they use a basic processing (so technically it's a "processed" food) to nurture the protein out of their peas (i think yellow peas are 20-30% protein). Same prices with their rice.

the reason i recommend a bit of pea protein in there is to complete the 9 essential amino acids. Pea is lacking a little methionine and cystine and pea has 3x that amount. 

so, to answer, yes they are cleaner in that aspect but if you purchase that grass-fed whey you'll be fine as well. TN has options to customize your protein with sweeteners and flavorings (and they are tasty, my girlfriend got a custom mix of pea/rice/hemp, in that order, and added natural vanilla and banana flavoring...MMMM). 

10/11/12 11:54 AM
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Taku
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AKO,

thanks for the rapid response. Where can one find these proteins? Please provide a link, URL etc.

Cheers,

TAKU

10/11/12 12:53 PM
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big_slacker
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http://truenutrition.com/c-71-vegan-products.aspx

They've actually got a blend of pea, rice and hemp protein for under $6 a pound. I'm actually gonna order some of that.
10/11/12 4:42 PM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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www.truenutrition.com Taku. click on "custom mix" 

 

big_slacker, that's what my girlfriend ordered because she can't follow simple directions lol 

10/12/12 12:46 PM
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big_slacker
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You mean as far as mixing it?
10/12/12 3:20 PM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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as far as making her own mix. I am not  a fan of hemp protein TBH because of it's fat content. I know some experience good recovery when adding fats but for myself it's been the opposite or maybe i didn't utilize it properly. In terms of AA profiles, pea/rice is complete.

 

did you get their hemp/rice/pea? and yes the price of 6 bucks is AWESOME!

10/15/12 7:34 PM
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Cheggers
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