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UnderGround Forums >> Is Jones Black Belt Level?


9/24/12 9:15 AM
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wiggum
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Smith1234 - Hermanator, the irony is that you criticize the non-ranked BJJ fighter for using an improper escape. Why don't you critisize the black belt for allowing that escape to work instead? After all, it is he who is the back belt!

Also, why don't you criticize the black belt for getting subbed. Perhaps he should at least have let it get broken like Nog and so many other black belts before him.

And yes, I know Vitor's history and alluded to it up front when I said that I don't want to discuss how he got it, just accept that he has it and is at this level now.

In short, instead of criticizing Jon's BJJ in that fight, perhaps you should congratulate him. Or if hating is your game, then criticize Vitor, not the guy who escaped and won by sub and isn't even ranked!

You never hear wrestlers criticize BJ Penn for his unique style of takedown defense, claiming it's not technically sound.

Jones escaped from the arm bar and won the fight. Good on him.
9/24/12 9:16 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Smith1234 - 
Winston Wolf - been watching MMA since UFC 1 and can count on 1 hand BBs that been subbed by non ranked fighters.If its so commen in MMA lets see someone name 10 times its happened

Good point.

Jones did it 2x against Vitor and Machida ( nobody else has subbed him dont think Vitors been subbed before either ) Lindland subbed Lutter.Cant think of any other on the top of my head Im sure theres more But if its sooo commen lets see someone name 10 without googling it
9/24/12 9:17 AM
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wiggum
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^^Was GSP a Renzo black belt when Hughes subbed him? Ricardo definitely was.
9/24/12 9:19 AM
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wiggum
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^^And did Sak ever have a 'rank' in anything?
9/24/12 9:24 AM
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mchase126
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Smith1234 - ^^ you seem smart. Stop being so dogmatic. Think beyond the gi. Looks beyond it to the core of what you HAVE seen without the gi. Base your answer on that.

If it is helpful, base it on ADCC Jones vs any of the Pride LHWs who had BJJ black belts.

Put the gi aside, please, for just a moment.
Think behind the Gi? What is that supposed to mean? If you are talking any belt level and yet trying to leave put the Gi, your argument is horrendous.

He has a high-level of submission grappling. Black, brown, purple, blue, and white belts all wear the belt for the same purpose: because of the GI. Like someone else said before, apples and oranges.

That's like saying Anderson Silva is a black belt in Karate simply because he is incredibly proficient with punches/kicks. Phone Post
9/24/12 9:27 AM
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torquemada
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WestsideStrangler - His shit is set up from beating guys up first.  He hasn't subbed anyone without beating them up or tiring them out first.  I promise you if ME and him rolled I would sub the shit out of him and I also promise you if I fought him if he wanted to sub me he could win by submission.  The guys a freaky athlete and he uses it well in the cage but he is not near black belt level in gi or nogi Jiu-Jitsu.

I'm not at all a Jones fan, and I mean this as a compliment to you. Your grappling is another level; I still think he demonstrates good skill. Truthfully, you'd crush most average black belts.
9/24/12 9:41 AM
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Kostakio
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Winston Wolf, let's see him submit Weidman at 205 lbs. in straight grappling (he can't). ;)
9/24/12 10:15 AM
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Winston Wolf
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wiggum - ^^Was GSP a Renzo black belt when Hughes subbed him? Ricardo definitely was.

Hughes didnt sub Renzo.Ok heres another Sak subbing Renzo.Yes Hughes subbing Almieda is another ( another wrestler ) ok we got Almieda subbed by Hughes,Lutter by Lindland,Vitor by Jones,Machida by Jones Thats 5 including 2 by Jones.So besides Jones we got 3 others in 20 years since UFC 1.Another is Mac Danzig subbing Joe Scarola but that was TUF So Ill give that theres 6 and I named them all exept the Almieda-Hughes which was a great sub Ive never seen used.If its so commen lets see someone name 10 in the 20 years since UFC 1
9/24/12 10:17 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Kostakio - Winston Wolf, let's see him submit Weidman at 205 lbs. in straight grappling (he can't). ;)

says who ? how do u know ? but it wont ever happen.Not saying Jones would but he has the potential to beat and sub ANYONE.Widman is another who would beat most BBs and hes only been doing BJJ a few years
9/24/12 10:19 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Edited: 09/24/12 10:24 AM
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also lets see anyone sub Wiedman.Nobody else has why is he the measuring stick ? Nobody has seen Jones straight grapple so how can u say for sure ? On a sidenote Wiedman and Jones were both NY state champs at similiar weights in HS.I dont think they every wrestled but very well could have.Jones beat Riddle in state finals I think and beat a a hUntington guy Jack Sullivan in the finals by a point in OT edited i forgot Vinny subbed Wiedman but anyone can be subbed including Jones
9/24/12 10:23 AM
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Winston Wolf
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wiggum - ^^Was GSP a Renzo black belt when Hughes subbed him? Ricardo definitely was.

GSP was purple then
9/24/12 10:24 AM
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brixx139
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Smith1234 - I also don't think that high level BJJ w/ the gi is more technical than, for example, high level wrestling in a singlet.
well then you would be completely wrong Phone Post
9/24/12 10:26 AM
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Winston Wolf
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brixx139 - 
Smith1234 - I also don't think that high level BJJ w/ the gi is more technical than, for example, high level wrestling in a singlet.
well then you would be completely wrong Phone Post

typical BJJ snobbery
9/24/12 10:29 AM
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brixx139
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theres no way youve trained with the gi and would still call him bb level. just bc he wouuld beat a bb does NOT make him bb level. he uses all of his natural physical gifts to grapple, and it works, but does not give him the technical proficiency of a true bb. Phone Post
9/24/12 10:31 AM
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brixx139
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Winston Wolf -
brixx139 - 
Smith1234 - I also don't think that high level BJJ w/ the gi is more technical than, for example, high level wrestling in a singlet.
well then you would be completely wrong Phone Post

typical BJJ snobbery
ive done both plenty and its my opinion. go ahead and call it snobbery if you'd like. its simple fact that one art is more tech oriented than the other. you would have to be absolutely dense to disagree Phone Post
9/24/12 10:45 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Edited: 09/24/12 10:54 AM
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<blockquote>brixx139 - 

theres no way youve trained with the gi and would still call him bb level. just bc he wouuld beat a bb does NOT make him bb level. he uses all of his natural physical gifts to grapple, and it works, but does not give him the technical proficiency of a true bb. <img src="/images/phone/droid.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


</blockquote><br /> whats BB leval ? I woud say entering a tourney under BJJ rules in GI is the only fair way to judge who would win.Now people forget that in BJJ a lot of points are from takedowns.Jones would get a few in every match so thats 2 to 6 points right there.Plus his ground game and conditioning along with knowing how to win would make him a very tough fight for any blackbelt his weight.Anyone can be subbed including Jones BUt I think he would do well in BJJ tourneys BB devision with the GI.Especially if he was given chance to train in GI for 6 to 10 months But from day 1 i think he would be well above the "average BB " And would place higher than the average BB in BJJ tourneys.I could be wrong.Good debate and Im glad everyones being respectful about it.I defenatly repect the opionions Ive heard .I just differ
9/24/12 10:47 AM
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Winston Wolf
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brixx139 - 
Winston Wolf -
brixx139 - 
Smith1234 - I also don't think that high level BJJ w/ the gi is more technical than, for example, high level wrestling in a singlet.
well then you would be completely wrong Phone Post

typical BJJ snobbery
ive done both plenty and its my opinion. go ahead and call it snobbery if you'd like. its simple fact that one art is more tech oriented than the other. you would have to be absolutely dense to disagree Phone Post

why insult ? Wrestling has freestle,greco and scholastic All very technical and very different.Ive done both too.And they both are very technical.U mean to tell me Olympic wrestlers and NCAA champs arent technical ? Ok Ill call it snobbery and differ
9/24/12 10:52 AM
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Gomrad
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Do the BJJ advocates here agree that fighters like Hughes (in his prime) and now Jones, Cormier, Wiedman serve as proof that wrestling produces superior MMA fighters then BJJ? Phone Post
9/24/12 10:55 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Gomrad -  Do the BJJ advocates here agree that fighters like Hughes (in his prime) and now Jones, Cormier, Wiedman serve as proof that wrestling produces superior MMA fighters then BJJ? Phone Post

Im a fan of both.
9/24/12 11:01 AM
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Winston Wolf
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easedel - 
FinestScotch - Freak body more than technique imo, even though he is very good.

This. No way around it, the only thing he does excellent is elbows on the ground. Thats it, everything else is awkward.

his finish of Vitor was textbook BJJ from the finish to the positioning of his head.Same with when he subbed Machida another BB.Ok Im out of this thread
9/24/12 11:03 AM
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Bisping decisioned my SN
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hermanitor -
AGC IV -  People put to much emphasis on the term "BLACKBELT" like its the end all be all.

Dont mess with him he's a blackbelt!!!


Some schools hand them out like candy, although most BJJ schools are much diff about it and make you really earn it.

That being said MMA grappling is completely diff than your traditional BBJ with GI.

Many would sub Jones but as far as yes his MMA level grappling is highly effective and blackbelt level. Hence the list of black belts he has subbed. Its irrelevant that he wears them down first. Phone Post

A blackbelt in BJJ still means a ton. Check this website, every few weeks there is a new thread about discovering a new fake blackbelt to harass.

Fake black belts do not last long in the BJJ community.

If you're not a black belt (or high brown, or super talented bigger purple) you are not subbing a blackbelt in jiu jitsu. Well, it's happened I'm sure...but very few, and very far between.

So yeah, a blackbelt in BJJ means a shitload more than in any other art. Period.
Your absolutely right. Its a joke at some other schools on how you "earn" a black belt its more of a just put in your hours lol.

But with BJJ if your not subbing higher belts etc your not going to just be given your bb because the teacher likes you and u have been training for 10 years. Phone Post
9/24/12 11:18 AM
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brixx139
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Winston Wolf -
brixx139 - 
Winston Wolf -
brixx139 - 
Smith1234 - I also don't think that high level BJJ w/ the gi is more technical than, for example, high level wrestling in a singlet.
well then you would be completely wrong Phone Post

typical BJJ snobbery
ive done both plenty and its my opinion. go ahead and call it snobbery if you'd like. its simple fact that one art is more tech oriented than the other. you would have to be absolutely dense to disagree Phone Post

why insult ? Wrestling has freestle,greco and scholastic All very technical and very different.Ive done both too.And they both are very technical.U mean to tell me Olympic wrestlers and NCAA champs arent technical ? Ok Ill call it snobbery and differ
hahaha. putting words in my mouth bud. i see you arent someone that i can have a real arguement with. i never said wrestlers arent technical. but the art of bjj is far more inherently technical than the art of wrestling. if youve grappled nogi and fought both im sure you would understand. just different styles. no insults to wrestlers, i started as one myself Phone Post
9/24/12 11:20 AM
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brixx139
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Gomrad - Do the BJJ advocates here agree that fighters like Hughes (in his prime) and now Jones, Cormier, Wiedman serve as proof that wrestling produces superior MMA fighters then BJJ? Phone Post
nope. and i dont consider myself just a bjj advocate. more a grappling advocate Phone Post
9/24/12 11:35 AM
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SQUEEZIE
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Smith1234 - More BJJ guys should learn to wrestle and grapple no gi if they want to do MMA. Gi is overrated.

i agree.unless u have your gi w you at all times ready to thro it on before u thro down...no gi bjj all day!
9/24/12 11:54 AM
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Winston Wolf
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guess i was wrong about armbar not being close

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