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UnderGround Forums >> Is Jones Black Belt Level?


9/27/12 8:32 PM
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Smith1234
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Gannon, unfortunately you will always be a made man here, lol. There arent many NPDs who are going to cross that line in a dickish manner. Actually this place is much much better without him. Phone Post
9/27/12 10:02 PM
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Immaculata
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Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.
9/27/12 10:02 PM
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Immaculata
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Edited: 09/27/12 10:10 PM
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Gi or No Gi.
9/27/12 10:09 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Immaculata - Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.

Jones doesnt need to make a video but if he did make a video it would be the biggest selling of all time.It wouldnt be an armbar video but could incorporate his wrestling,grappling and mma and Im sure hed sell many videos But hes making enough money with his title defences to bother
9/27/12 10:12 PM
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Immaculata
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Keep making my point Winston.
9/27/12 10:35 PM
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WestsideStrangler
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GladiatorGannon - 
dlong949 - What about Kimbo Slice?

Not the same caliber as these guys. Would win white belt divisions and most blues on athleticism and strength, lose against solid purples/elite blues.

As for myself - I won the NAGA World Title in the Intermediate Division...and again at the Advanced Division. The level of grappling in the UFC is so high that even many of the "bad" grapplers at that level would horribly trounce the "good" grapplers at your gym. Not the elite grappling competitors, but a guy you think is "good" at grappling in your area might be horribly manhandled by those guys.

Funny you say that cuz 99% of the time I watch the UFC I think the ground sucks shit and that's why al,ost every single fighter fights for their life not to go to the ground.  Or when they get there they fight for their life ot get back up.

9/28/12 1:17 AM
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JacT
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WestsideStrangler - 
GladiatorGannon - 
dlong949 - What about Kimbo Slice?

Not the same caliber as these guys. Would win white belt divisions and most blues on athleticism and strength, lose against solid purples/elite blues.

As for myself - I won the NAGA World Title in the Intermediate Division...and again at the Advanced Division. The level of grappling in the UFC is so high that even many of the "bad" grapplers at that level would horribly trounce the "good" grapplers at your gym. Not the elite grappling competitors, but a guy you think is "good" at grappling in your area might be horribly manhandled by those guys.

Funny you say that cuz 99% of the time I watch the UFC I think the ground sucks shit and that's why al,ost every single fighter fights for their life not to go to the ground.  Or when they get there they fight for their life ot get back up.


Yo Westside,

I seem to be agreeing with everything you are saying. I am glad I am not the only one.

JacT
9/28/12 1:29 AM
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JacT
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Wasa-B - "BJJ is an entire system composed of specific skill sets, done specific ways. It encompasses Self Defense Techniques both standing and on the ground, Transitions, Escapes, Subs all done Gi and No-gi. It also includes a guiding philosophy behind it all.

Look at the Matt Hamill fight earlier that night. It was a beautiful display of ground control, GnP, weight distribution, pressure, etc etc... But it was NOT BJJ. It was WRESTLING."

GNP is not WRESTLING.

Ground control, weight distribution, pressure, etc, etc are fundamental factors in grappling period.

In this case, Jones is originally a wrestler but also training BJJ and MMA as a comprehensive game under Jackson. You do not sit in top position in guard in WRESTLING so there is def some "BJJ" in that sequence even though of course Jones is originally a wrestler so his grappling fundamentals come from WRESTLING.

You are totally correct that the GnP is not actually wrestling. (I was too lazy to go back and edit that but noticed the flaw in my argument)

And you are totally correct that "ground control, weight dist, pressure, etc are fundamental in a grappling period.

I suppose that you have to know the BJJ techniques to see if they are being applied. It takes a trained eye to see it. To an untrained eye, it all just looks like good 'ol wrasslin'
And I am NOT implying you have an untrained eye.

But I think I am agreeing with Chris Brennan on everything he is saying.

JacT
9/28/12 5:46 AM
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Gomrad
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Immaculata - Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.
I was content just reading and not posting but saw my name so i figured a response was in order.... Maybe Jon Jones should make a video "Successful Grappling for MMA" (would be much more applicable for this century and send it out to the BJJ schools that run no-Gi or MMA classes. This might help close the gap for the pajama wrestlers and the real wrestlers. Phone Post
9/28/12 6:20 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Immaculata - Keep making my point Winston.

how about a video on tapping BJJ blackbelts in a fight
9/28/12 8:13 AM
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Smith1234
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Separate but related question. Did Hughes run a ”grappling clinic” on Royce or not. How did Royces bottom game look, full of nuance and technique, or like he was getting overwhelmed?

(seems to me to be a clear case of a ”good ole wrassler” smoking an acai drinking, technical Rich black belt in ground, but curious if there will be denial and obfuscation. Maybe Royce just needed that gi and he wouldnt have looked like a boy against a man out there?) Phone Post
9/28/12 8:37 AM
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Smith1234
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Before the fight, a significant portion (maybe even majority) thought Royce would beat Matt. Then, from memory, Royce got launched into space, landed in side control, almost had arm broken, desperately gave up his back and prayed for gnp instead of a choke. Take away strikes, and Riyce gets either a broken arm or put to sleep.

I would love to know what was going through Royces mind as this was happening. He went from beating people when he ”rolls” to what? Panic? Fear? Disbelief at being overwhelmed? Thinking ”just dont tap, dont tap? Thank god he just gnp me and didnt sub me?

I think that Jon is similar in credentials and performance as Matt. I mentioned Matt in OP. I thought Matt was universally respected even among BJJ set for his grappling. I didnt see a lot of peiple saying ”yeah but Almedia was rocked”. He was rocked, but people still gave Matt props for choking him out.

Jon does not get that kind of respect. I think he should. And like Royce vs Matt, I think a lot of BJJ blackbelts would have an epiphany three seconds after locking up with Jones. Phone Post
9/28/12 8:52 AM
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Smith1234
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Chris, would you sub the shit out of Matt Hughes too? No gi. Phone Post
9/28/12 11:49 AM
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WestsideStrangler
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Do I think I would sub matt?  Yes I do. And I also think Matt has very good ground but like JJ it's even better when he's punching you in the face. I would pick Matt to Sub JJ to in nogi. 

 

Do you guys think that if there were no strikes with Vitor and JJ that he wouldn't have subbed him all night?  You see how easy it was the first time?  And then set up a triangle like it was cool in the 2nd after already being beat up?  Just rolling Vitor would have owned him.  Vitor has very good ground but how fast do you think Roger would sub Vitor?  My guess is about as fast as Vitor had JJ in an armbar. 

9/28/12 11:55 AM
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Smith1234
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To be clear, I do not think Jon beats high level BBs in grappling. I dont think that is even worth discussing and have been shifting discussion away from that as much as i can. Phone Post
9/28/12 11:57 AM
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Immaculata
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Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - Keep making my point Winston.

how about a video on tapping BJJ blackbelts in a fight

But that's a fight. MMA and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are separate entities. Why don't you get that? You're comparing apples and oranges.
9/28/12 12:04 PM
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Immaculata
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Gomrad - 
Immaculata - Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.
I was content just reading and not posting but saw my name so i figured a response was in order.... Maybe Jon Jones should make a video "Successful Grappling for MMA" (would be much more applicable for this century and send it out to the BJJ schools that run no-Gi or MMA classes. This might help close the gap for the pajama wrestlers and the real wrestlers. Phone Post

Pajama wrestlers and real wrestlers is a childish term. There are Wrestling Practioners and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practioners. They are trying to accomplish two different things. Can you try to make a valid point?
9/28/12 12:19 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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WestsideStrangler - 
GladiatorGannon - 
dlong949 - What about Kimbo Slice?

Not the same caliber as these guys. Would win white belt divisions and most blues on athleticism and strength, lose against solid purples/elite blues.

As for myself - I won the NAGA World Title in the Intermediate Division...and again at the Advanced Division. The level of grappling in the UFC is so high that even many of the "bad" grapplers at that level would horribly trounce the "good" grapplers at your gym. Not the elite grappling competitors, but a guy you think is "good" at grappling in your area might be horribly manhandled by those guys.

Funny you say that cuz 99% of the time I watch the UFC I think the ground sucks shit and that's why al,ost every single fighter fights for their life not to go to the ground.  Or when they get there they fight for their life ot get back up.


All due respect to the great Chris Brennan, but where exactly are you going with that? If you're fighting for your life to not go to the ground, it's because the other guys ground game is so good. Likewise for trying to get up. Why the heck do you think the guy wants to get up so bad? It's the UFC, if someone like Nog has you down, it's usually a good idea to get up...even if you're "blackbelt level" :)
9/28/12 1:13 PM
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JacT
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Smith1234 - Before the fight, a significant portion (maybe even majority) thought Royce would beat Matt. Then, from memory, Royce got launched into space, landed in side control, almost had arm broken, desperately gave up his back and prayed for gnp instead of a choke. Take away strikes, and Riyce gets either a broken arm or put to sleep.

I would love to know what was going through Royces mind as this was happening. He went from beating people when he ”rolls” to what? Panic? Fear? Disbelief at being overwhelmed? Thinking ”just dont tap, dont tap? Thank god he just gnp me and didnt sub me?

I think that Jon is similar in credentials and performance as Matt. I mentioned Matt in OP. I thought Matt was universally respected even among BJJ set for his grappling. I didnt see a lot of peiple saying ”yeah but Almedia was rocked”. He was rocked, but people still gave Matt props for choking him out.

Jon does not get that kind of respect. I think he should. And like Royce vs Matt, I think a lot of BJJ blackbelts would have an epiphany three seconds after locking up with Jones. Phone Post
I think Matt is black belt level in JJ. I DO NOT think Jon Jones is.

Matt executed wrestling and ju-jitsu perfectly against Royce from my recollection. He uses bjj positioning and submissions. Jones does not.

JacT Phone Post
9/28/12 1:26 PM
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Smith1234
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Jact, if Jones is not using BJJ subs, what kind of subs is he using? And what kind of top play and guard play is he using?

Usually BJJ guys are arguing with people about how various things wrestlers and others do is BJJ (taking credit ao to speak) so it is refreshing to hear you say he is not using BJJ positioning or subs. Phone Post
9/28/12 1:29 PM
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Smith1234
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It is also great that yoy are giving Matt his props in BB level, it shows you get beyond the dogma of the gi and all the techniques he may not know. So even though you dont agree Jones is there, I can respect your position and logic. Phone Post
9/28/12 1:31 PM
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Louisvillain
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Well he did just submit a Brazilian national black belt champion.

Anderson dont want none.

9/28/12 1:43 PM
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Smith1234
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I am surprised I got a several vote downs on this thread. We may not all agree, but I have been respectful and this topic has good posters on both sides, or in the middle. It is actually an interesting discussion. Phone Post
9/28/12 1:49 PM
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wiggum
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^^Voted up - that's stupid that people voted you down. Respectful and productive. Voting down is for ignorance, hate and trolling.
9/28/12 1:51 PM
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hermanitor
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Let me say this. I am not particularly great at BJJ. Lots of people on this thread are a whole lot better than me.

I've been training for a good amount of time though, at some of the best BJJ academies in NY. I Have seen MANY incredible MMA fighters pass through to work on their jiu jitsu.

I have seen many of these same guys get tooled by the local gym hero in pure grappling. That's why the MMA fighters go there in the first place. To work on one specific aspect of their game with experts in that one particular aspect.

While MMA is much more 'fight' than BJJ. Those who study a curriculum where they are studying 100% jiu jitsu....will usually trounce those who are training boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, and 20% jiu jitsu (for only like three years!)

I've seen it too many times. Frankly, I think a guy like jones would get subbed by a whole shitload of Renzo's high purples and low browns in no gi (if the opponent were of fairly similar size, same gender, Etc.)

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