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UnderGround Forums >> Is Jones Black Belt Level?


9/28/12 1:49 PM
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wiggum
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^^Voted up - that's stupid that people voted you down. Respectful and productive. Voting down is for ignorance, hate and trolling.
9/28/12 1:51 PM
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hermanitor
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Let me say this. I am not particularly great at BJJ. Lots of people on this thread are a whole lot better than me.

I've been training for a good amount of time though, at some of the best BJJ academies in NY. I Have seen MANY incredible MMA fighters pass through to work on their jiu jitsu.

I have seen many of these same guys get tooled by the local gym hero in pure grappling. That's why the MMA fighters go there in the first place. To work on one specific aspect of their game with experts in that one particular aspect.

While MMA is much more 'fight' than BJJ. Those who study a curriculum where they are studying 100% jiu jitsu....will usually trounce those who are training boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, and 20% jiu jitsu (for only like three years!)

I've seen it too many times. Frankly, I think a guy like jones would get subbed by a whole shitload of Renzo's high purples and low browns in no gi (if the opponent were of fairly similar size, same gender, Etc.)
9/28/12 1:51 PM
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hermanitor
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Smith1234 -  I am surprised I got a several vote downs on this thread. We may not all agree, but I have been respectful and this topic has good posters on both sides, or in the middle. It is actually an interesting discussion. Phone Post

I got one :) I'll wear it with pride forever.
9/28/12 1:57 PM
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hermanitor
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Smith1234 -  Jact, if Jones is not using BJJ subs, what kind of subs is he using? And what kind of top play and guard play is he using?

Usually BJJ guys are arguing with people about how various things wrestlers and others do is BJJ (taking credit ao to speak) so it is refreshing to hear you say he is not using BJJ positioning or subs. Phone Post

Subs in MMA after beating up an opponent...does not equal jiu jitsu.

Jiu jitsu equals jiu jitsu. Subs are subs.

No one is saying Jones is not using BJJ. What they are saying is that his BJJ is not blackbelt level simply because jones has subbed blackbelts **in MMA*

MMA is not BJJ. I don't understand why so many are still having this issue, frankly.
9/28/12 1:59 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Immaculata - 
Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - Keep making my point Winston.

how about a video on tapping BJJ blackbelts in a fight

But that's a fight. MMA and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are separate entities. Why don't you get that? You're comparing apples and oranges.

i posed a question a while back that nobody seems to answer Being that u think in a fight it is soooooo sooooo soo commen for BJJ to get subbed NAME ME 10 times it happened ??I gave u 7 lets see u name 3 more being how its soooooooo commen.And Westside Jones is way bigger and way younger and better than Matt Hughes He has 35 pounds on him and trains much more Hed smoke Hughes
9/28/12 2:04 PM
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Winston Wolf
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sunderground - No. He'd get sub-ed in a bjj tournament. Look what Sean Roberts does to Benson Henderson in go-gi and a brown belt.

Jones is an amazing MMA athlete but Roger would fuck him up. Apples and oranges kids.

who said anythig about Roger .LOL at everyone using the best BJJ guy in the world as a reference for blackbelts
9/28/12 2:06 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Caught_clean - 
Smith1234 - LOL at criticizing an escape from a deep armbar. Classic BJJ mentality. Aren't you the guy who was talking shit on Chhay?

He has some good BJJ but I dont see how you can defend his defense there. Standing up and shaking out of a extended armbar is literally the first thing you are taught not to do lol. More or less he was aware he was in deep trouble and was going to get a bit injured to get his arm out in a world title fight. He was willing for that to happen and still went on to fight multiple rounds and win.

As far as his GnP I agree with above posters its pretty technical.

ur taught not to do that in BJJ this is a fight.He could have slammed Vitor on his head and tried unsuccesfully but it was a fight not a BJJ tourney
9/28/12 2:08 PM
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Winston Wolf
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hermanitor - 
Smith1234 -  I am surprised I got a several vote downs on this thread. We may not all agree, but I have been respectful and this topic has good posters on both sides, or in the middle. It is actually an interesting discussion. Phone Post

I got one :) I'll wear it with pride forever.

i got a few and guess what ?? i could give a crap
9/28/12 2:09 PM
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Winston Wolf
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hermanitor - 
Smith1234 -  Jact, if Jones is not using BJJ subs, what kind of subs is he using? And what kind of top play and guard play is he using?

Usually BJJ guys are arguing with people about how various things wrestlers and others do is BJJ (taking credit ao to speak) so it is refreshing to hear you say he is not using BJJ positioning or subs. Phone Post

Subs in MMA after beating up an opponent...does not equal jiu jitsu.

Jiu jitsu equals jiu jitsu. Subs are subs.

No one is saying Jones is not using BJJ. What they are saying is that his BJJ is not blackbelt level simply because jones has subbed blackbelts **in MMA*

MMA is not BJJ. I don't understand why so many are still having this issue, frankly.

ok same question to u.If its soo soo commen for BJJers to get subbed because its MMA not BJJ name 10 times it happened ? i gave u 7 ?? Ill wait for ur reply
9/28/12 2:11 PM
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Winston Wolf
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? is name me 10 times a BJJ was subbed in MMA by non ranked BJJer ?I gave 7 examples Ill wait for the other 3 being how its so commen
9/28/12 2:17 PM
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Smith1234
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hermanitor - 
Smith1234 -  Jact, if Jones is not using BJJ subs, what kind of subs is he using? And what kind of top play and guard play is he using?

Usually BJJ guys are arguing with people about how various things wrestlers and others do is BJJ (taking credit ao to speak) so it is refreshing to hear you say he is not using BJJ positioning or subs. Phone Post

Subs in MMA after beating up an opponent...does not equal jiu jitsu.

Jiu jitsu equals jiu jitsu. Subs are subs.

No one is saying Jones is not using BJJ. What they are saying is that his BJJ is not blackbelt level simply because jones has subbed blackbelts **in MMA*

MMA is not BJJ. I don't understand why so many are still having this issue, frankly.

If noone is saying Jones does not use BJJ, then what is JacT saying (which is who I was addressing) when he says this on the prior page "Matt executed wrestling and ju-jitsu perfectly against Royce from my recollection. He uses bjj positioning and submissions. Jones does not."

9/28/12 2:19 PM
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UGCTT_JediMMA
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drance2624 - he does have the most submission wins in UFC 205lb history...that might say something....
No. It says NOTHING about him being a BJJ black belt. MMA and BJJ two different sports. Phone Post
9/28/12 2:23 PM
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Gokudamus stole my name
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"Subs in MMA after beating up an opponent...does not equal jiu jitsu."

Helio Gracie would disagree with that. Dominant position, beat him up until he gives up his back, sink in the choke is textbook GJJ

9/28/12 2:29 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Edited: 09/28/12 2:29 PM
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Gokudamus stole my name - "Subs in MMA after beating up an opponent...does not equal jiu jitsu."

Helio Gracie would disagree with that. Dominant position, beat him up until he gives up his back, sink in the choke is textbook GJJ


its BJJ if u have a belt otherwise its not .
9/28/12 3:12 PM
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Gomrad
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hermanitor -
Smith1234 -  Jact, if Jones is not using BJJ subs, what kind of subs is he using? And what kind of top play and guard play is he using?

Usually BJJ guys are arguing with people about how various things wrestlers and others do is BJJ (taking credit ao to speak) so it is refreshing to hear you say he is not using BJJ positioning or subs. Phone Post

Subs in MMA after beating up an opponent...does not equal jiu jitsu.

Jiu jitsu equals jiu jitsu. Subs are subs.

No one is saying Jones is not using BJJ. What they are saying is that his BJJ is not blackbelt level simply because jones has subbed blackbelts **in MMA*

MMA is not BJJ. I don't understand why so many are still having this issue, frankly.
I think this is more then fair to say... Phone Post
9/28/12 3:17 PM
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Gomrad
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Immaculata -
Gomrad - 
Immaculata - Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.
I was content just reading and not posting but saw my name so i figured a response was in order.... Maybe Jon Jones should make a video "Successful Grappling for MMA" (would be much more applicable for this century and send it out to the BJJ schools that run no-Gi or MMA classes. This might help close the gap for the pajama wrestlers and the real wrestlers. Phone Post

Pajama wrestlers and real wrestlers is a childish term. There are Wrestling Practioners and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practioners. They are trying to accomplish two different things. Can you try to make a valid point?
I also think it is a fair point if BJJ guys would concede that when it comes to MMA grappling supremacy

Wrestling > BJJ

Anyone willing to accept this? Phone Post
9/28/12 3:29 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Gomrad - 
Immaculata -
Gomrad - 
Immaculata - Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.
I was content just reading and not posting but saw my name so i figured a response was in order.... Maybe Jon Jones should make a video "Successful Grappling for MMA" (would be much more applicable for this century and send it out to the BJJ schools that run no-Gi or MMA classes. This might help close the gap for the pajama wrestlers and the real wrestlers. Phone Post

Pajama wrestlers and real wrestlers is a childish term. There are Wrestling Practioners and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practioners. They are trying to accomplish two different things. Can you try to make a valid point?
I also think it is a fair point if BJJ guys would concede that when it comes to MMA grappling supremacy

Wrestling > BJJ

Anyone willing to accept this? Phone Post

id say they are equally important
9/28/12 3:43 PM
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Gomrad
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Kid Charlemagne -
Gomrad -
Immaculata -
Gomrad - 
Immaculata - Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.
I was content just reading and not posting but saw my name so i figured a response was in order.... Maybe Jon Jones should make a video "Successful Grappling for MMA" (would be much more applicable for this century and send it out to the BJJ schools that run no-Gi or MMA classes. This might help close the gap for the pajama wrestlers and the real wrestlers. Phone Post

Pajama wrestlers and real wrestlers is a childish term. There are Wrestling Practioners and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practioners. They are trying to accomplish two different things. Can you try to make a valid point?
I also think it is a fair point if BJJ guys would concede that when it comes to MMA grappling supremacy

Wrestling > BJJ

Anyone willing to accept this? Phone Post
Saying wrestling is better than bjj is false.

They're both important for success in mma. If wrestlers didn't use bjj and learn defense, escapes, sweeps etc; they'd get subbed like no other. Thats saying if they completely ignored bjj.

On the other hand if bjj guys don't learn take downs from wrestling, getting their opponent gets MUCH harder and they can't implement their game plan.

They're different sports! Both sre valuable Quit comparing apples and oranges people.

Also, wrestlers in general are better athletes. So it's also misleading to look at guys who have wrestling backgrounds and simple correlating that to the art/sport of wrestling itself being the reason. Phone Post
Not the styles but the athletes

Wrestling base produces better MMA fighters the BJJ base

Obviously everybody's cross training now but what background is superior in you opinions? Phone Post
9/28/12 4:17 PM
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Gomrad
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I think you're right on with those thoughts...


However with regard to this:

"If we can't address the fact that wrestling has better athletic specimens than bjj then the sports themselves are not comparable by looking at mma success. "

I think everyone realizes this since it's pretty obvious looking at MMA results,
but your words reinforce the fact that the sport / culture of wrestling produces superior athletes then the BJJ world.
Some BJJ people are in denial about this and have "snub" or "elitist" attitudes towards wrestling / wrestlers... Phone Post
9/28/12 4:26 PM
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Smith1234
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Even on this thread a couple people downplayed the technical aspects of wrestling in a very naive way that nobody would say about BJJ Phone Post
9/28/12 4:30 PM
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Smith1234
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I think the average BJJer would be shocked at the intensity and drill work that is done in the wrestling room on a daily basis. Emphasis on technique is huge, as is conditioning. Phone Post
9/28/12 4:32 PM
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Gomrad
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Their are plenty of successful guys in the wrestling world that are not "natural stud athletes" or "superior genetic freaks". Guys that got to the top through countless hours of hard work sheer dedication all the while toiling in mainstream sports obscurity as a "bastard step child" if you will... The mental and physical toughness derived from growing up in this environment is what makes wrestlers a different breed. That "no respect" theme continued in the martial arts / combat sports world until MMA got going....

Most wrestlers are not anywhere close to those "4.3 40 yard dash" or the "6 foot 10 gazelle" type guys. Show me a champion wrestler and I'll show you a blue collar hard working SOB. After decades of training / competing / fighting for respect these guys are alright with beating the respect out of the fight world Phone Post
9/28/12 4:33 PM
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Smith1234
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How Rolles Gracie showed up as a black belt just not ready to compete is surprising. Was he traneing hard enough? He looked like he wouldnt survive 5 minutes of wrestling practice after warmups. Phone Post
9/28/12 4:40 PM
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Smith1234
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It is self selection. People who cant hack wrestling dont do it. In BJJ, it is not that you can get by on great technique as much as it is easier to hack it, easier to stick around and that does not Work in wrestling. Phone Post
9/28/12 4:44 PM
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Smith1234
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Let me put it this way, if you dont have a certain mind set, you dont make it in wrestling. It is not that you make it but just arent the best, instead you are cut from the team and told to do something else.

I am happy to hear otherwise, but my guess is that your local bjj club is more forgiving, especially if you pay your membership fees. Phone Post

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