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UnderGround Forums >> Is Jones Black Belt Level?


9/28/12 4:53 PM
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Gomrad
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"my guess is that your local bjj club is more forgiving, especially if you pay your membership fees"

Also I can agree with this... Phone Post
9/28/12 4:55 PM
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Smith1234
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Gomrad, exactly. The idea that in BJJ you can get by with more technique and less physical talent, wheras wrestling requires more physical talent to succeed shows a complete lack of knowledge of how wrestling works and why the people are savages that do it well. Phone Post
9/28/12 5:05 PM
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Smith1234
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No, I am saying it is crazy for you to downplay it in BJJ. To act like in BJJ technique is enough to be great. The best wrestlers are 10s in s,and c AND technique.

If the best BJJers are not 10 in both, then they are not as good as they could be. Phone Post
9/28/12 5:09 PM
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Smith1234
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Let me put it this way. If BJJ had a weeding out process like wrestling, then all BJJ players would be ”better athletes”. And if wrestling didnt, there would be a wider range of athletes.

It is not the technical aspects of each sport that dictate the physical/athletic talent level of the participants. Phone Post
9/28/12 5:12 PM
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Gomrad
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Kid Charlemagne -
Smith1234 -  Gomrad, exactly. The idea that in BJJ you can get by with more technique and less physical talent, wheras wrestling requires more physical talent to succeed shows a complete lack of knowledge of how wrestling works and why the people are savages that do it well. Phone Post

 

complete lack of knowldege? are you saying physical ability and talent are not important for you to succeed? If its not so important, why on earth is so much emphasis on strength and conditioning.  Of all the US high school sports, the wreslers work the hardest - harder than football.  Its crazy to down play the significance of S&C in wrestling.  Absurd.

 

Let me clarify the connection, because the workouts are so grueling as gomrad can surely elaborate - people that cant hack it will quit.  Genetics play a huge role in being able to hack it.

 

I don't think is being down played more then. There are many components to a comprehensive wrestling (both instructional and program

-Drilling technique makes you "better"

-Live (sparring) makes you "tougher"

-effective stretching program for flexibility

-tumbling improves body control / awareness / scrambling

-fundamental / core strength training

-plyometric explosiveness development

-running / conditioning for "cardio"

-Visualization / mental imagery

-diet / nutrition / weight management



These are all vital areas for wholistic development in the sport of wrestling. But if you had to rank them in order the two by far most important are the two listed first... You can be the greatest athlete / physical specimen you want but without that "MAT TIME" you will get beaten every time by more seasoned (or game) opponents with less genetic or physical talent... Phone Post
9/28/12 5:18 PM
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Gomrad
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"I don't think is being down played more then other areas. There are many components to a comprehensive wrestling program (both instructional and physical development)"

Sorry I pushed post to early by accident
(I am a meat head savage wrestler) Phone Post
9/28/12 5:24 PM
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Gomrad
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Kid Charlemagne -
Gomrad - 
Kid Charlemagne -
Smith1234 -  Gomrad, exactly. The idea that in BJJ you can get by with more technique and less physical talent, wheras wrestling requires more physical talent to succeed shows a complete lack of knowledge of how wrestling works and why the people are savages that do it well. Phone Post

 

complete lack of knowldege? are you saying physical ability and talent are not important for you to succeed? If its not so important, why on earth is so much emphasis on strength and conditioning.  Of all the US high school sports, the wreslers work the hardest - harder than football.  Its crazy to down play the significance of S&C in wrestling.  Absurd.

 

Let me clarify the connection, because the workouts are so grueling as gomrad can surely elaborate - people that cant hack it will quit.  Genetics play a huge role in being able to hack it.

 

I don't think is being down played more then. There are many components to a comprehensive wrestling (both instructional and program

-Drilling technique makes you "better"

-Live (sparring) makes you "tougher"

-effective stretching program for flexibility

-tumbling improves body control / awareness / scrambling

-fundamental / core strength training

-plyometric explosiveness development

-running / conditioning for "cardio"

-Visualization / mental imagery

-diet / nutrition / weight management



These are all vital areas for wholistic development in the sport of wrestling. But if you had to rank them in order the two by far most important are the two listed first... You can be the greatest athlete / physical specimen you want but without that "MAT TIME" you will get beaten every time by more seasoned (or game) opponents with less genetic or physical talent... Phone Post

ok, i think im starting to understand where you're coming from.  So it is more of the culture of wrestling and the heart that it develops through hardwork that makes people successful in mma.

Yes

But I guess i would that Ultimately it is each individual athlete / fighter that continues into MMA for their own purpose or reason.. Their base sport doesn't solely define them but it helped to create the person they molded themselves into. Guys with that warriors spirit tend have success in MMA and I guess it could be surmised that both nature and nurture play a role in the process...

Collectively those individuals that come from wrestling background Phone Post
9/28/12 5:24 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Gomrad -  Their are plenty of successful guys in the wrestling world that are not "natural stud athletes" or "superior genetic freaks". Guys that got to the top through countless hours of hard work sheer dedication all the while toiling in mainstream sports obscurity as a "bastard step child" if you will... The mental and physical toughness derived from growing up in this environment is what makes wrestlers a different breed. That "no respect" theme continued in the martial arts / combat sports world until MMA got going....

Most wrestlers are not anywhere close to those "4.3 40 yard dash" or the "6 foot 10 gazelle" type guys. Show me a champion wrestler and I'll show you a blue collar hard working SOB. After decades of training / competing / fighting for respect these guys are alright with beating the respect out of the fight world Phone Post

Great post, upvoted.
9/28/12 5:28 PM
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Gomrad
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"SPENT THREE DAYS READING AND POSTING IN ONE THREAD






GOT VOTED UP"


Fuck yeah! Lol Phone Post
9/28/12 5:28 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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hermanitor - 
Smith1234 -  I am surprised I got a several vote downs on this thread. We may not all agree, but I have been respectful and this topic has good posters on both sides, or in the middle. It is actually an interesting discussion. Phone Post

I got one :) I'll wear it with pride forever.

Not for long...Voted up :)
9/28/12 5:31 PM
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Smith1234
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Kid Charlemagne -
Smith1234 -  No, I am saying it is crazy for you to downplay it in BJJ. To act like in BJJ technique is enough to be great. The best wrestlers are 10s in s,and c AND technique.

If the best BJJers are not 10 in both, then they are not as good as they could be. Phone Post

if i implied that bjj required zero physical ability, sorry for the confusion.  I was speaking relatively to wrestling in the sense that it is more important there than bjj.  

 

 

Kid Charlemagne -

ultimately, its a lot harder to get away with poor athleticism in wrestling than it is in bjj

Gomrad:

I can agree with that... Phone Post

You did not imply zero. But you did downplay it, at least a little. That is fine, that can Work in BJJ. It cant Work in wrestling, not becuase wrestling relies more on,power and less technique compared to bjj, but because it is just not acceptable. Phone Post
9/28/12 5:32 PM
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Wasa-B
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Gomrad - 
Immaculata -
Gomrad - 
Immaculata - Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.
I was content just reading and not posting but saw my name so i figured a response was in order.... Maybe Jon Jones should make a video "Successful Grappling for MMA" (would be much more applicable for this century and send it out to the BJJ schools that run no-Gi or MMA classes. This might help close the gap for the pajama wrestlers and the real wrestlers. Phone Post

Pajama wrestlers and real wrestlers is a childish term. There are Wrestling Practioners and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practioners. They are trying to accomplish two different things. Can you try to make a valid point?
I also think it is a fair point if BJJ guys would concede that when it comes to MMA grappling supremacy

Wrestling > BJJ

Anyone willing to accept this? Phone Post

Pure Wrestling < Pure BJJ

Also, how do we define "MMA grappling"? Is GNP included or on grappling in MMA alone?

I would say wrestling has been the more successful base overall for MMA not necessarily for MMA grappling.
9/28/12 5:40 PM
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Gomrad
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Wasa-B -
Gomrad - 
Immaculata -
Gomrad - 
Immaculata - Just view Jason Scully's vid on a quick review on the Arm Bar technique. A question to the OP, Winston, Gomrad, Gannon, do you think Jon Jones could make a vid like that?? The answer is No. He's not a Brazilian Jiu Jiutsiu Black Belt. Joe Rogan is awesome but he is wrong in leading in fans for believing so.
I was content just reading and not posting but saw my name so i figured a response was in order.... Maybe Jon Jones should make a video "Successful Grappling for MMA" (would be much more applicable for this century and send it out to the BJJ schools that run no-Gi or MMA classes. This might help close the gap for the pajama wrestlers and the real wrestlers. Phone Post

Pajama wrestlers and real wrestlers is a childish term. There are Wrestling Practioners and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practioners. They are trying to accomplish two different things. Can you try to make a valid point?
I also think it is a fair point if BJJ guys would concede that when it comes to MMA grappling supremacy

Wrestling > BJJ

Anyone willing to accept this? Phone Post

Pure Wrestling < Pure BJJ

Also, how do we define "MMA grappling"? Is GNP included or on grappling in MMA alone?

I would say wrestling has been the more successful base overall for MMA not necessarily for MMA grappling.
The only definition that matters in competition is Win / Loss...

When looking at MMA grappling or "grappling with MMA" if you will then GnP has to factor in highly as it is a huge part of the sport's evolution... Phone Post
9/28/12 5:41 PM
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Wasa-B
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JacT - 
Smith1234 - Before the fight, a significant portion (maybe even majority) thought Royce would beat Matt. Then, from memory, Royce got launched into space, landed in side control, almost had arm broken, desperately gave up his back and prayed for gnp instead of a choke. Take away strikes, and Riyce gets either a broken arm or put to sleep.

I would love to know what was going through Royces mind as this was happening. He went from beating people when he ”rolls” to what? Panic? Fear? Disbelief at being overwhelmed? Thinking ”just dont tap, dont tap? Thank god he just gnp me and didnt sub me?

I think that Jon is similar in credentials and performance as Matt. I mentioned Matt in OP. I thought Matt was universally respected even among BJJ set for his grappling. I didnt see a lot of peiple saying ”yeah but Almedia was rocked”. He was rocked, but people still gave Matt props for choking him out.

Jon does not get that kind of respect. I think he should. And like Royce vs Matt, I think a lot of BJJ blackbelts would have an epiphany three seconds after locking up with Jones. Phone Post
I think Matt is black belt level in JJ. I DO NOT think Jon Jones is.

Matt executed wrestling and ju-jitsu perfectly against Royce from my recollection. He uses bjj positioning and submissions. Jones does not.

JacT Phone Post

I would agree that Hughes is BB level while Jones is not....yet.

You have to remember that Hughes is far more a veteran of the game than Jones and that when Hughes faced Royce - which was still a significant and eye opening win, Royce was still past his prime at this point - Hughes was further along in his MMA career than Jones is now.

Hughes was not a great finisher until around the time of the GSP armbar, Trigg RNCs, etc. He also beat guys up with GNP as well. Jones has better pure GNP as did Trigg over Hughes (ie. how bad you can inflict damage within someone's guard) but Hughes was much better positionally on the ground than someone like Trigg.

Remember how long it took Hughes to finish Sakurai? And even then, though Hughes dominated, i dont think the time of the TKO Sakurai was completely done (though I dont think it would have mattered).

Hughes, of course, was far more prone to subs than Jones initially (Hallman x2, BJ, in trouble with BJ II, Newton I, Charuto).

Regarding Jones anyhow, i dont think he is where Hughes' MMA grappling game got to be but NOT YET. He will be and his subs came along much faster than Hughes' did.

To say that Jones does not use "BJJ positioning and submissions" is also false. I think you meant to say he does not use it as well as someone like Hughes at this point.
9/28/12 5:50 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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hermanitor - Let me say this. I am not particularly great at BJJ. Lots of people on this thread are a whole lot better than me.

I've been training for a good amount of time though, at some of the best BJJ academies in NY. I Have seen MANY incredible MMA fighters pass through to work on their jiu jitsu.

I have seen many of these same guys get tooled by the local gym hero in pure grappling. That's why the MMA fighters go there in the first place. To work on one specific aspect of their game with experts in that one particular aspect.

While MMA is much more 'fight' than BJJ. Those who study a curriculum where they are studying 100% jiu jitsu....will usually trounce those who are training boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, and 20% jiu jitsu (for only like three years!)

I've seen it too many times. Frankly, I think a guy like jones would get subbed by a whole shitload of Renzo's high purples and low browns in no gi (if the opponent were of fairly similar size, same gender, Etc.)

I'm sure he's got some elite competitive browns that might be up to the task, but I have a hard time seeing him getting tapped by a purple in a grappling comp. JJ is around 230 when he competes, so lets limit it to HWs. John Jones gets the take down (yes, takedowns are part of jiujitsu, even if every practictioner isn't that good at them). A guy with reach and savvy of Jones is unlikely to get guard pulled, and will likely hit the ground (with great velocity) on top of you and in a very dominant side control and ahead on points. Do you really think a purple is capable of getting someone like Jones off of them and subbing him before time runs out?
9/28/12 6:22 PM
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kevinchhay
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Wrestling's not technical LOL at that

A tilt takes no technique, the guillotine (twister in BJJ) Eddie Bravo used to dominate in BJJ before he faced Royler

The 2 De La Riva Black Belts I faced didn't even get to use their DLR guard on me because it doesn't really work well without Gi

Smith1234 and Gomrad are right BJJ focuses on technique, however, Wrestlers train like Spartan Warriors

Being strong is part of the game (that should be considered part of technique) and part of training 6+ hours a day is becoming physically, mentally and technically stronger

A pre-requisite of wrestling is lifting weights visit any High School and see what Wrestlers do after practice

Compare the average Olympic Wrestler's physique compared to Judo or Jiu-Jitsu

Wrestling isn't the be all end all or else Cael Sanderson and Rulon Gardner would be cleaning house

But most of all I feel Wrestling breeds Champions because it trains heart whereas other sports don't

9/28/12 6:26 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Also, a lot of this debate is common in Martial Arts that have sports associated with them. However, it's important to always remember that the Art is bigger than the Sport. The Art includes the sport (not the other way around) but is not limited to the sport.

Gi Sport Jiujitsu skills - yes part of BJJ

No Gi skills - yes also part of jiujitsu. People used to argue this here, but nowaday even the IBJF sanctions a No Gi Mundials.

Takedowns - Yes, this is an integral part of the art (even if every practitioner is not a master). Even if you're a highly tranked competitor, your Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for self defense may be weak if you lack in this area.

GnP - both defending and attacking - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. In the early 90s, preventing people from hitting me, and guard passes with punches were some my very first jiujitsu lessons at my local Rickson Affiliate. In fact, I don't think there is another art out there that teaches PnP as effectivelty and completely as BJJ. Again, not everyone in BJJ is an expert at it, but it's certainly part of the art, and there is no art that does it better than BJJ.

Submission Defense - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. Contrary to popular opinion, wrestling doens't teach sub defense, strong BJJ top game with good sub defense is simply the BJJ game most commonly developed by ex-wrestlers (for obvious reasons).

Certain self defense applications that have nothing to do with any sporting context on the mat or in the cage - dealing with eye gouges, weapons etc. - Yes, also part of jiujitsu. This is a complete self defense art in addition to having a couple of different sports inside of it.

It's a big art, and you can certainly be a legitimate BB without being an elite master in every aspect listed above.
9/28/12 6:26 PM
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Smith1234
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Gomrad - "I don't think is being down played more then other areas. There are many components to a comprehensive wrestling program (both instructional and physical development)"

Sorry I pushed post to early by accident
(I am a meat head savage wrestler) Phone Post
Btw, when I said savage I meant it as a compliment. A philosopher savage perhaps:-) Phone Post
9/28/12 6:32 PM
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kevinchhay
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"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

9/28/12 6:35 PM
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kevinchhay
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So you should strive to improve physical athletic ability and technique

9/28/12 6:36 PM
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tommypatron
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TTT Phone Post
9/28/12 6:39 PM
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Ministry of Truth
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GladiatorGannon - Also, a lot of this debate is common in Martial Arts that have sports associated with them. However, it's important to always remember that the Art is bigger than the Sport. The Art includes the sport (not the other way around) but is not limited to the sport.

Gi Sport Jiujitsu skills - yes part of BJJ

No Gi skills - yes also part of jiujitsu. People used to argue this here, but nowaday even the IBJF sanctions a No Gi Mundials.

Takedowns - Yes, this is an integral part of the art (even if every practitioner is not a master). Even if you're a highly tranked competitor, your Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for self defense may be weak if you lack in this area.

GnP - both defending and attacking - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. In the early 90s, preventing people from hitting me, and guard passes with punches were some my very first jiujitsu lessons at my local Rickson Affiliate. In fact, I don't think there is another art out there that teaches PnP as effectivelty and completely as BJJ. Again, not everyone in BJJ is an expert at it, but it's certainly part of the art, and there is no art that does it better than BJJ.

Submission Defense - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. Contrary to popular opinion, wrestling doens't teach sub defense, strong BJJ top game with good sub defense is simply the BJJ game most commonly developed by ex-wrestlers (for obvious reasons).

Certain self defense applications that have nothing to do with any sporting context on the mat or in the cage - dealing with eye gouges, weapons etc. - Yes, also part of jiujitsu. This is a complete self defense art in addition to having a couple of different sports inside of it.

It's a big art, and you can certainly be a legitimate BB without being an elite master in every aspect listed above.

"GnP - both defending and attacking - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. In the early 90s, preventing people from hitting me, and guard passes with punches were some my very first jiujitsu lessons at my local Rickson Affiliate. In fact, I don't think there is another art out there that teaches PnP as effectivelty and completely as BJJ. Again, not everyone in BJJ is an expert at it, but it's certainly part of the art, and there is no art that does it better than BJJ."

Same here. I started and worked my way to blue belt at a GB academy, which focused on the self-defense portion of BJJ during white belt classes.

Sadly, I have trained many other schools (well known ones too), and most completely neglected to teach the self-defense portion of BJJ, to instead focus 100% on sport BJJ.

I think that even if a school is 100% focused on teaching sport BJJ for competition sake, there should still be an obligation to teach simple stuff, like standing choke defense, defending an attack while getting up from your back, etc. What's the purpose of learning a martial art to only master techniques that win tournaments? In a sense, it's not much better than "learning" karate via a point-fighting system.
9/28/12 6:54 PM
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Winston Wolf
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GladiatorGannon - Also, a lot of this debate is common in Martial Arts that have sports associated with them. However, it's important to always remember that the Art is bigger than the Sport. The Art includes the sport (not the other way around) but is not limited to the sport.

Gi Sport Jiujitsu skills - yes part of BJJ

No Gi skills - yes also part of jiujitsu. People used to argue this here, but nowaday even the IBJF sanctions a No Gi Mundials.

Takedowns - Yes, this is an integral part of the art (even if every practitioner is not a master). Even if you're a highly tranked competitor, your Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for self defense may be weak if you lack in this area.

GnP - both defending and attacking - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. In the early 90s, preventing people from hitting me, and guard passes with punches were some my very first jiujitsu lessons at my local Rickson Affiliate. In fact, I don't think there is another art out there that teaches PnP as effectivelty and completely as BJJ. Again, not everyone in BJJ is an expert at it, but it's certainly part of the art, and there is no art that does it better than BJJ.

Submission Defense - Yes, this is part of jiujitsu. Contrary to popular opinion, wrestling doens't teach sub defense, strong BJJ top game with good sub defense is simply the BJJ game most commonly developed by ex-wrestlers (for obvious reasons).

Certain self defense applications that have nothing to do with any sporting context on the mat or in the cage - dealing with eye gouges, weapons etc. - Yes, also part of jiujitsu. This is a complete self defense art in addition to having a couple of different sports inside of it.

It's a big art, and you can certainly be a legitimate BB without being an elite master in every aspect listed above.

good post/Id vote it up but used mine for today .
9/28/12 6:59 PM
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hermanitor
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Winston Wolf - 
hermanitor - 
Smith1234 -  Jact, if Jones is not using BJJ subs, what kind of subs is he using? And what kind of top play and guard play is he using?

Usually BJJ guys are arguing with people about how various things wrestlers and others do is BJJ (taking credit ao to speak) so it is refreshing to hear you say he is not using BJJ positioning or subs. Phone Post

Subs in MMA after beating up an opponent...does not equal jiu jitsu.

Jiu jitsu equals jiu jitsu. Subs are subs.

No one is saying Jones is not using BJJ. What they are saying is that his BJJ is not blackbelt level simply because jones has subbed blackbelts **in MMA*

MMA is not BJJ. I don't understand why so many are still having this issue, frankly.

ok same question to u.If its soo soo commen for BJJers to get subbed because its MMA not BJJ name 10 times it happened ? i gave u 7 ?? Ill wait for ur reply

Dude, Matt Hughes has subbed SEVERAL (4-5, I believe)himself. Do you think he'd sub Ricardo ALmaeda (sp) in a BJJ match? The dude Subbed Royce, and tooled Renzo too.

Forrest griffin subbed shogun. NOG (one of the best) recently got his arm ripped to pieces.

Barrnett has subbed several. Sakuraba has too. SO has Jon Jones.

I think you're asking a rather silly question. Blackbelts getting subbed in MMA is nothing new, or unusual.

I'm not sure what you're beef is, but the claim that BJJ blackbelts can get subbed in MMA after getting punched in the face for three rounds....isn't exactly hard to swallow.

Why are you hell bent on this strange denial?
9/28/12 7:11 PM
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hermanitor
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GladiatorGannon - 
hermanitor - Let me say this. I am not particularly great at BJJ. Lots of people on this thread are a whole lot better than me.

I've been training for a good amount of time though, at some of the best BJJ academies in NY. I Have seen MANY incredible MMA fighters pass through to work on their jiu jitsu.

I have seen many of these same guys get tooled by the local gym hero in pure grappling. That's why the MMA fighters go there in the first place. To work on one specific aspect of their game with experts in that one particular aspect.

While MMA is much more 'fight' than BJJ. Those who study a curriculum where they are studying 100% jiu jitsu....will usually trounce those who are training boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, judo, and 20% jiu jitsu (for only like three years!)

I've seen it too many times. Frankly, I think a guy like jones would get subbed by a whole shitload of Renzo's high purples and low browns in no gi (if the opponent were of fairly similar size, same gender, Etc.)

I'm sure he's got some elite competitive browns that might be up to the task, but I have a hard time seeing him getting tapped by a purple in a grappling comp. JJ is around 230 when he competes, so lets limit it to HWs. John Jones gets the take down (yes, takedowns are part of jiujitsu, even if every practictioner isn't that good at them). A guy with reach and savvy of Jones is unlikely to get guard pulled, and will likely hit the ground (with great velocity) on top of you and in a very dominant side control and ahead on points. Do you really think a purple is capable of getting someone like Jones off of them and subbing him before time runs out?

I really think equal sized purples who tangle with Jones not only do well with him, but probably sub him. Again, equal sized. Also, why assume Jones would get a takedown into side control? In pure grappling competitions at the higher levels,that is extremely rare.

Besides, in a pure BJJ tournie the opponent can butt flop any time. I think we've both seen matches at ADCC, Naga, Grapplers quest, Etc. when the BJJ guy goes "ah fuck, a wrestler, I'm not getting slammed on my head, no thanks! *epic butt flop*

I think jones has lots of reach, but at this point, very little savoy. It would be too easy for a guy like jones to be caught in gimmick moves. Stupid shit, omoplata toe holds, rolling knee bars, wrist locks and what not, based solely on his lack of experience. If you've never seen it, you'll never seen it coming. At a mere three years of training, there is a lot he has not seen, and thus a lot he gets caught in.

According to Jones BJJ coach, this is the case. He claims that Jones is white belt caliber in a Gi. He claims that jones loses to BJJ guys a lot in No Gi. He has said this in several interviews I've seen

I'm taking his word for it!

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