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UnderGround Forums >> Is Jones Black Belt Level?


9/23/12 8:59 PM
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Immaculata
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Winston Wolf - 
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Immaculata - 
Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - 
Immaculata - You need to be proficient with the Gi to be a true BB. I don't know the extent of his training using one.

Matt Hughes never traned gi, but many legit people said he was BB level. Jones is nearing that Matt Hughes wrestler/grappler BB level as well.

I can appreciate that, but I stand by my statement. A true Black Belt is proficient in the Gi.

Jones in a GI without a GI would smash most BBs in BJJ.

It goes beyond "smashing" someone. We are talking about knowledge here. To be a true Black Belt in Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu you need to have to be proficient in the Gi.

People don't understand that with a Gi, you have to be more techinical. The great thing in a Gi is, You excercise your mind a lot more since there is more you have to do with a gi. What No-Gi practitioners hate the most about the gi..is the "handles" and most of the time when they try gi for the first time..they immediately hate it and decide not to enter the Gi world.

put a GI on Jones and take him to your local BJJ club and watch him run a clinic

Watch him join that school and get a white belt get strapped around his waist.
9/23/12 9:04 PM
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yellow wrkahlc
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Smith1234 - ^^ huh? Please go rewatch the fight. I have no idea what you are saying. He was going back for leg, Shogun opened up and a bomb was landed. It is not up for debate, the punch was set up and the set up worked.

It is not only BJJ that can be technical...GnP can be too.

I don't need to watch the fight again.

Jon Jones tries the goofiest things because he knows his size and reach are to his advantage and he can get away with it.

He was on top of shogun, just doing whatever the hell he wanted to do. He didn't set that punch up, he just figured he'd swing at Shogun's face.

Jones is technical at times, but let's not pretend he's masterful. Still very green in his stand up, but his reach bridges that gap.
9/23/12 9:04 PM
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BertR
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The debate is absurd. bjj rankings can only be attributed to the standards set in bjj because it is a different sport than mma. If Jones wants to know if how his grappling compares, he could go to a certified bjj instructor with an upstanding reputation and be tested.

What can be said is Jones grappling in mma is enough where he can become a 17-1 champion including against fighters who are bjj blackbelts
9/23/12 9:04 PM
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D241
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Gomrad -  Gold Belt > Black Belt Phone Post

  Boom


/thread
9/23/12 9:05 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Kostakio -  I wouldn't say he's a black belt but high purple or even a brown belt for sure. But of course, with his athleticism and confidence, he sure seems like it.

I still can't wait for him to lose though...

:) Phone Post

bring Jones to ur local BJJ club and tell me how he does.Wiedman kicked ass his first day.Jones is bigger and been grappling longer.Id say first day at Serras Wiedman was brown belt level.
9/23/12 9:06 PM
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disconnect
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is this even a question? jones would get tapped easily by the WORST bb in his weight division at the bjj worlds.
9/23/12 9:06 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Winston Wolf - 
Random Hero -  MMA is not BJJ. he would not have a chance in a BJJ tournament against a BB. just because he beats a BB in MMA doesnt mean he beats a BB in jiu jitsu. thats like saying Randy is better at boxing than Toney because he beat him in MMA. they are two different sports. MMA grappling isnt even close to no gi grappling nvm actual brazilian jiu jitsu. its a whole different game when you add strikes. untill they start ranking MMA fighters with belt colours, he is not a black belt. in my opinion his striking is a bigger asset to his ground game than his grappling is.

in short..... MMA is not BJJ!

phhhhhh Jones would put a clinic if he enterend a BJJ tourney.You think hed be an easy match cause a guy wears a belt that is black.Jacare couldnt beat Coutore and Jones grappling blows Coutores away and Jacare is among the best at BJJ

Totally different winston. No-Gi..Jones would of course do absolutely good in a No-Gi Tournament...He displayed great transitions. That is because of Greg Jackson as well. Greg Jackson has been coming to Grapplers QUest for years, In fact...before Diego Sanchez, Dodson, Jardine were popular they would be seen all the time competing in the older GQ tournaments...Their grappling back then though seemed more of a wrestling than anything else. You really didn't see so much submissions from them at all...but of course time goes by and their team just gets better and better. Our team for a long time held first place for many years here in Vegas.
Diego was breaking off a lot of our guys in class...until he put on a Gi.
9/23/12 9:07 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Kostakio -  I wouldn't say he's a black belt but high purple or even a brown belt for sure. But of course, with his athleticism and confidence, he sure seems like it.

I still can't wait for him to lose though...

:) Phone Post

dude im purple belt for 4 years and i know lots of others and I know damn well Jones would run a clinic on me
9/23/12 9:09 PM
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Random Hero
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Smith1234 - 
Random Hero -  MMA is not BJJ. he would not have a chance in a BJJ tournament against a BB. just because he beats a BB in MMA doesnt mean he beats a BB in jiu jitsu. thats like saying Randy is better at boxing than Toney because he beat him in MMA. they are two different sports. MMA grappling isnt even close to no gi grappling nvm actual brazilian jiu jitsu. its a whole different game when you add strikes. untill they start ranking MMA fighters with belt colours, he is not a black belt. in my opinion his striking is a bigger asset to his ground game than his grappling is.

in short..... MMA is not BJJ!

But no gi grappling is close to wrestling, which is why non-elite/world level wrestlers like Matt Hughes and Mark Kerr can do well or very well at ADCC against BJJ guys.

no gi sub wrestling is not bjj either. they dont give belts for no gi. you have to be good at gi to get your rank. gyms that only train no gi give coloured rash guards like eddie bravo for example, i dont even think he teaches bjj in the gi. which is what bjj actually is. and yes i know he is a BB but does not currently train in the gi nor does he instruct or rank poeple in the gi. nothing against him just using as an example. if the question was "is JJ a black rashguard" or whatever you want to call it i would lean a little more towards yes. 
9/23/12 9:09 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Immaculata - 
Winston Wolf - 
uniquetechnique - 
Immaculata - 
Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - 
Immaculata - You need to be proficient with the Gi to be a true BB. I don't know the extent of his training using one.

Matt Hughes never traned gi, but many legit people said he was BB level. Jones is nearing that Matt Hughes wrestler/grappler BB level as well.

I can appreciate that, but I stand by my statement. A true Black Belt is proficient in the Gi.

Jones in a GI without a GI would smash most BBs in BJJ.

It goes beyond "smashing" someone. We are talking about knowledge here. To be a true Black Belt in Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu you need to have to be proficient in the Gi.

People don't understand that with a Gi, you have to be more techinical. The great thing in a Gi is, You excercise your mind a lot more since there is more you have to do with a gi. What No-Gi practitioners hate the most about the gi..is the "handles" and most of the time when they try gi for the first time..they immediately hate it and decide not to enter the Gi world.

put a GI on Jones and take him to your local BJJ club and watch him run a clinic

Watch him join that school and get a white belt get strapped around his waist.

belt aint gunna do shit for u when ur going against an athlete with skill strength and conditioning .U could put a pink belt on Jones and hed still whoop ass
9/23/12 9:11 PM
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drance2624
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he does have the most submission wins in UFC 205lb history...that might say something....
9/23/12 9:12 PM
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Winston Wolf
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uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
Random Hero -  MMA is not BJJ. he would not have a chance in a BJJ tournament against a BB. just because he beats a BB in MMA doesnt mean he beats a BB in jiu jitsu. thats like saying Randy is better at boxing than Toney because he beat him in MMA. they are two different sports. MMA grappling isnt even close to no gi grappling nvm actual brazilian jiu jitsu. its a whole different game when you add strikes. untill they start ranking MMA fighters with belt colours, he is not a black belt. in my opinion his striking is a bigger asset to his ground game than his grappling is.

in short..... MMA is not BJJ!

phhhhhh Jones would put a clinic if he enterend a BJJ tourney.You think hed be an easy match cause a guy wears a belt that is black.Jacare couldnt beat Coutore and Jones grappling blows Coutores away and Jacare is among the best at BJJ

Totally different winston. No-Gi..Jones would of course do absolutely good in a No-Gi Tournament...He displayed great transitions. That is because of Greg Jackson as well. Greg Jackson has been coming to Grapplers QUest for years, In fact...before Diego Sanchez, Dodson, Jardine were popular they would be seen all the time competing in the older GQ tournaments...Their grappling back then though seemed more of a wrestling than anything else. You really didn't see so much submissions from them at all...but of course time goes by and their team just gets better and better. Our team for a long time held first place for many years here in Vegas.
Diego was breaking off a lot of our guys in class...until he put on a Gi.

gimme a break I got my purple in GI.Yes I know the grips and coller chokes etc make it different But not that much that witha GI I can all of a sudden beat Jones.Im a purple belt and Jones would kick the ever living crap out of me with or without GI
9/23/12 9:12 PM
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Smith1234
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disconnect - is this even a question? jones would get tapped easily by the WORST bb in his weight division at the bjj worlds.

Do you have any perspective? Since when can all Black Belts do well or not get smoked at BJJ worlds?
9/23/12 9:13 PM
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drance2624
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Smith1234 - ^^ huh? Please go rewatch the fight. I have no idea what you are saying. He was going back for leg, Shogun opened up and a bomb was landed. It is not up for debate, the punch was set up and the set up worked.

It is not only BJJ that can be technical...GnP can be too.

I don't need to watch the fight again.

Jon Jones tries the goofiest things because he knows his size and reach are to his advantage and he can get away with it.

He was on top of shogun, just doing whatever the hell he wanted to do. He didn't set that punch up, he just figured he'd swing at Shogun's face.

Jones is technical at times, but let's not pretend he's masterful. Still very green in his stand up, but his reach bridges that gap.

he definitely set that punch up

you're either blind or a self-righteous cunt if you think otherwise
9/23/12 9:14 PM
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Smith1234 - ^^ you seem smart. Stop being so dogmatic. Think beyond the gi. Looks beyond it to the core of what you HAVE seen without the gi. Base your answer on that.

If it is helpful, base it on ADCC Jones vs any of the Pride LHWs who had BJJ black belts.

Put the gi aside, please, for just a moment.

do you even realize what you're saying? you're asking this guy to rank jones by putting aside the very thing that separates actual bjj from submission wrestling or no gi grappling...the gi. jiu jitsu with gi & grappling without it are 2 different worlds.
9/23/12 9:15 PM
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Winston Wolf
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disconnect - is this even a question? jones would get tapped easily by the WORST bb in his weight division at the bjj worlds.

ya right
9/23/12 9:16 PM
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yellow wrkahlc
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yellow wrkahlc - 
Smith1234 - ^^ huh? Please go rewatch the fight. I have no idea what you are saying. He was going back for leg, Shogun opened up and a bomb was landed. It is not up for debate, the punch was set up and the set up worked.

It is not only BJJ that can be technical...GnP can be too.

I don't need to watch the fight again.

Jon Jones tries the goofiest things because he knows his size and reach are to his advantage and he can get away with it.

He was on top of shogun, just doing whatever the hell he wanted to do. He didn't set that punch up, he just figured he'd swing at Shogun's face.

Jones is technical at times, but let's not pretend he's masterful. Still very green in his stand up, but his reach bridges that gap.

he definitely set that punch up

you're either blind or a self-righteous cunt if you think otherwise

HAHAHA! Then I guess I'm either blind or a "self-righteous cunt". I don't even think you know what self-righteous means...

I'm not trashing Jon Jones, I'm just stating the obvious. Thanks for the VD, though.
9/23/12 9:17 PM
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Gomrad
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When it comes to MMA fighting BJJ is not the mystical force it once was... Man for man Wrestling produces better athletes / fighters then BJJ. This fact is hard for some pee to deal with...

Ex: King Mo's Right Pimp Hand proved to be stronger then 10x World BJJ Champion chin. Phone Post
9/23/12 9:18 PM
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the ridler
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Winston Wolf - 
Kostakio -  I wouldn't say he's a black belt but high purple or even a brown belt for sure. But of course, with his athleticism and confidence, he sure seems like it.

I still can't wait for him to lose though...

:) Phone Post

bring Jones to ur local BJJ club and tell me how he does.Wiedman kicked ass his first day.Jones is bigger and been grappling longer.Id say first day at Serras Wiedman was brown belt level.

Weidman was subbed by Vinny M in about 2 minutes in nogi. Weidman would win easily IMO if it was mma. Jones dominating in mma does not mean he would dominate in bjj, especially gi. Why do you think jones would out grapple couture? To me it's jones wrestling,reach,creativity and striking that make him what he is.
9/23/12 9:20 PM
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Smith1234
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disconnect - 
Smith1234 - ^^ you seem smart. Stop being so dogmatic. Think beyond the gi. Looks beyond it to the core of what you HAVE seen without the gi. Base your answer on that.

If it is helpful, base it on ADCC Jones vs any of the Pride LHWs who had BJJ black belts.

Put the gi aside, please, for just a moment.

do you even realize what you're saying? you're asking this guy to rank jones by putting aside the very thing that separates actual bjj from submission wrestling or no gi grappling...the gi. jiu jitsu with gi & grappling without it are 2 different worlds.

No, they are not two different worlds. They are two very similar worlds.

Why do you think guys who trane the vast majority of the time in the gi also do well at ADCC? Please think about this and realize the incontrovertable truth of the matter.

Let me explain what two different worlds are. BJJ is a different world from football, swimming and baseball.
9/23/12 9:21 PM
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Immaculata
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Immaculata - 
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Immaculata - 
Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - 
Immaculata - You need to be proficient with the Gi to be a true BB. I don't know the extent of his training using one.

Matt Hughes never traned gi, but many legit people said he was BB level. Jones is nearing that Matt Hughes wrestler/grappler BB level as well.

I can appreciate that, but I stand by my statement. A true Black Belt is proficient in the Gi.

Jones in a GI without a GI would smash most BBs in BJJ.

It goes beyond "smashing" someone. We are talking about knowledge here. To be a true Black Belt in Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu you need to have to be proficient in the Gi.

People don't understand that with a Gi, you have to be more techinical. The great thing in a Gi is, You excercise your mind a lot more since there is more you have to do with a gi. What No-Gi practitioners hate the most about the gi..is the "handles" and most of the time when they try gi for the first time..they immediately hate it and decide not to enter the Gi world.

put a GI on Jones and take him to your local BJJ club and watch him run a clinic

Watch him join that school and get a white belt get strapped around his waist.

belt aint gunna do shit for u when ur going against an athlete with skill strength and conditioning .U could put a pink belt on Jones and hed still whoop ass

Again, you're missing the point.
9/23/12 9:21 PM
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MMAforMONEY
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No, but he will be. He said last night at the press conference that BJJ is his weakness. And even though he likes to call himself a true "mixed" martial artist, that's the one art he struggles in. But he also said that he wants to focus on that next, and really spend a lot of time improving in it and getting comfortable with it. Give it time, he's pretty high-level now as it is, and when he focuses on it like he said, he's really going to be nasty! Phone Post
9/23/12 9:23 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - 
Immaculata - You need to be proficient with the Gi to be a true BB. I don't know the extent of his training using one.

Matt Hughes never traned gi, but many legit people said he was BB level. Jones is nearing that Matt Hughes wrestler/grappler BB level as well.

I can appreciate that, but I stand by my statement. A true Black Belt is proficient in the Gi.

Jones in a GI without a GI would smash most BBs in BJJ.

It goes beyond "smashing" someone. We are talking about knowledge here. To be a true Black Belt in Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu you need to have to be proficient in the Gi.

dude i trained at a high level BJJ club for years.I stand bye Jones would beat most blackbelts in BJJ with GI.

Winston, question for you though. Has Jones ever tried the gi on? even once?
Diego Sanchez was training with us a while back during his UF days and stopped by Laimons many times...He put the Gi on..what do you think happened? He go man handled. Big Time.
If you put Jones in a Pure sport Jiu Jitsu match with a BJJ Black Belt, He would get put to sleep with even just a front choke..he would definitely hate the "handles" because they would be sweeping him left and right. Same went for Joe Daddy Stevenson when he put on the Gi as well.

im not going to name names but a certain MMA fighter in a lower weight than Jones walked into a prominant school I trained at .First day there he was smashing folks with GI without GI .You really think the average blackbelt can beat Jones in BJJ.Maybe hed lose against the very best But id bet anything u bring in 30 blackbelts his weight and have Jones have a BJJ match against them.I say hed win 28 to 30 times in BJJ.Dude Ive rolled with many blackbelts and not that I beat them but I dont think Id last a minute with Jones

Winston, I have trained BJJ since 1995. I held a purple for 6 years and a brown for 2. My black belt is still to many controversial...since it was my good friend that awarded it to me. I retired in 2008 because of 2 serious back tears and knee surgeries that never recovered right.
I have seen many many highly skilled Division 1 wrestlers, Sambo guys, MMA guys who have never put a Gi on in their life. You have a BJJ guy pull you in guard or even butterfly guard with handles......it sucks for the other guy. You should know..you lived it as well. There are just so so many chokes with the Gi, so so many sweeps, so so many submissions.
9/23/12 9:23 PM
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Winston Wolf
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the ridler - 
Winston Wolf - 
Kostakio -  I wouldn't say he's a black belt but high purple or even a brown belt for sure. But of course, with his athleticism and confidence, he sure seems like it.

I still can't wait for him to lose though...

:) Phone Post

bring Jones to ur local BJJ club and tell me how he does.Wiedman kicked ass his first day.Jones is bigger and been grappling longer.Id say first day at Serras Wiedman was brown belt level.

Weidman was subbed by Vinny M in about 2 minutes in nogi. Weidman would win easily IMO if it was mma. Jones dominating in mma does not mean he would dominate in bjj, especially gi. Why do you think jones would out grapple couture? To me it's jones wrestling,reach,creativity and striking that make him what he is.

first off Vinny is one of the best at BJJ not ur everyday BB.Secondly anyone can be subbed on a given day.Wiedman also came in 2nd in ADCC and beat some good grapplers and IMO should have got decision against Galvao.Wiedman fights at 185 Vinny is 205 so it mite be a tough fite.Why do I think Jones would out grapple Coutore ? ah for one i think hes much better .2 younger .3 lankier. 4 has had numerous subs .Yes Jones rech and creativity are great but so is his grappling
9/23/12 9:25 PM
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Smith1234
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the ridler - 
Winston Wolf - 
Kostakio -  I wouldn't say he's a black belt but high purple or even a brown belt for sure. But of course, with his athleticism and confidence, he sure seems like it.

I still can't wait for him to lose though...

:) Phone Post

bring Jones to ur local BJJ club and tell me how he does.Wiedman kicked ass his first day.Jones is bigger and been grappling longer.Id say first day at Serras Wiedman was brown belt level.

Weidman was subbed by Vinny M in about 2 minutes in nogi. Weidman would win easily IMO if it was mma. Jones dominating in mma does not mean he would dominate in bjj, especially gi. Why do you think jones would out grapple couture? To me it's jones wrestling,reach,creativity and striking that make him what he is.

When are you guys going to stop using Vinny and Roger to say that Jones is not BB level?

Do you all unnastand that BJJ worlds, mundials, Vinny and Roger are not representative of the entire population of BJJ black beltS?

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