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UnderGround Forums >> Is Jones Black Belt Level?


9/23/12 9:27 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Winston Wolf - 
uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
Random Hero -  MMA is not BJJ. he would not have a chance in a BJJ tournament against a BB. just because he beats a BB in MMA doesnt mean he beats a BB in jiu jitsu. thats like saying Randy is better at boxing than Toney because he beat him in MMA. they are two different sports. MMA grappling isnt even close to no gi grappling nvm actual brazilian jiu jitsu. its a whole different game when you add strikes. untill they start ranking MMA fighters with belt colours, he is not a black belt. in my opinion his striking is a bigger asset to his ground game than his grappling is.

in short..... MMA is not BJJ!

phhhhhh Jones would put a clinic if he enterend a BJJ tourney.You think hed be an easy match cause a guy wears a belt that is black.Jacare couldnt beat Coutore and Jones grappling blows Coutores away and Jacare is among the best at BJJ

Totally different winston. No-Gi..Jones would of course do absolutely good in a No-Gi Tournament...He displayed great transitions. That is because of Greg Jackson as well. Greg Jackson has been coming to Grapplers QUest for years, In fact...before Diego Sanchez, Dodson, Jardine were popular they would be seen all the time competing in the older GQ tournaments...Their grappling back then though seemed more of a wrestling than anything else. You really didn't see so much submissions from them at all...but of course time goes by and their team just gets better and better. Our team for a long time held first place for many years here in Vegas.
Diego was breaking off a lot of our guys in class...until he put on a Gi.

gimme a break I got my purple in GI.Yes I know the grips and coller chokes etc make it different But not that much that witha GI I can all of a sudden beat Jones.Im a purple belt and Jones would kick the ever living crap out of me with or without GI

Are you serious? In a Gi match? JOnes would beat many BJJ Black Belts..Id say probably 100% of them.....in MMA.
Jones with the Gi, put lovato Jr. in there with jones...I would bet you $500 that Lovato Jr. Submits jones. Your talking night and day difference. It's just really hard to believe that you would really think that a Gi and No-Gi is only a little different.
9/23/12 9:28 PM
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Winston Wolf
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uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
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Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - 
Immaculata - You need to be proficient with the Gi to be a true BB. I don't know the extent of his training using one.

Matt Hughes never traned gi, but many legit people said he was BB level. Jones is nearing that Matt Hughes wrestler/grappler BB level as well.

I can appreciate that, but I stand by my statement. A true Black Belt is proficient in the Gi.

Jones in a GI without a GI would smash most BBs in BJJ.

It goes beyond "smashing" someone. We are talking about knowledge here. To be a true Black Belt in Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu you need to have to be proficient in the Gi.

dude i trained at a high level BJJ club for years.I stand bye Jones would beat most blackbelts in BJJ with GI.

Winston, question for you though. Has Jones ever tried the gi on? even once?
Diego Sanchez was training with us a while back during his UF days and stopped by Laimons many times...He put the Gi on..what do you think happened? He go man handled. Big Time.
If you put Jones in a Pure sport Jiu Jitsu match with a BJJ Black Belt, He would get put to sleep with even just a front choke..he would definitely hate the "handles" because they would be sweeping him left and right. Same went for Joe Daddy Stevenson when he put on the Gi as well.

im not going to name names but a certain MMA fighter in a lower weight than Jones walked into a prominant school I trained at .First day there he was smashing folks with GI without GI .You really think the average blackbelt can beat Jones in BJJ.Maybe hed lose against the very best But id bet anything u bring in 30 blackbelts his weight and have Jones have a BJJ match against them.I say hed win 28 to 30 times in BJJ.Dude Ive rolled with many blackbelts and not that I beat them but I dont think Id last a minute with Jones

Winston, I have trained BJJ since 1995. I held a purple for 6 years and a brown for 2. My black belt is still to many controversial...since it was my good friend that awarded it to me. I retired in 2008 because of 2 serious back tears and knee surgeries that never recovered right.
I have seen many many highly skilled Division 1 wrestlers, Sambo guys, MMA guys who have never put a Gi on in their life. You have a BJJ guy pull you in guard or even butterfly guard with handles......it sucks for the other guy. You should know..you lived it as well. There are just so so many chokes with the Gi, so so many sweeps, so so many submissions.

im not JOnes his skill far surpasses my purple belt level.Soo Im a purple and I got it at prominant school and u think with a GI id give Jones trouble?? Jones is grappling freak.Was a great wrestler too and I know damn well with a GI or with no GI hed wipe the mat with me
9/23/12 9:29 PM
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BertR
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Gomrad -  When it comes to MMA fighting BJJ is not the mystical force it once was... Man for man Wrestling produces better athletes / fighters then BJJ. This fact is hard for some pee to deal with...

Ex: King Mo's Right Pimp Hand proved to be stronger then 10x World BJJ Champion chin. Phone Post

I disagree. For example, if MMA was fought without rounds and time constraints, that would give a significant advantage to bjj-oriented practitioners to not feel pressured into doing rushed bjj which would allow for better set-ups and capitalizing on errors from their opponent
9/23/12 9:29 PM
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Smith1234
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Uniquetechinique,

Are you a black belt? If not what belt?

And before your injuries, etc, do you think you would beat Jones in (1) no go grappling and (2) with the gi?
9/23/12 9:30 PM
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Kostakio
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the ridler -
Winston Wolf - 
Kostakio -  I wouldn't say he's a black belt but high purple or even a brown belt for sure. But of course, with his athleticism and confidence, he sure seems like it.

I still can't wait for him to lose though...

:) Phone Post

bring Jones to ur local BJJ club and tell me how he does.Wiedman kicked ass his first day.Jones is bigger and been grappling longer.Id say first day at Serras Wiedman was brown belt level.

Weidman was subbed by Vinny M in about 2 minutes in nogi. Weidman would win easily IMO if it was mma. Jones dominating in mma does not mean he would dominate in bjj, especially gi. Why do you think jones would out grapple couture? To me it's jones wrestling,reach,creativity and striking that make him what he is.
Yeap. I'm giving Jones his due but the truth is there are intricacies to BJJ that he does not know yet. But he definitely has a black belt in MMA so that's what ultimately counts. Phone Post
9/23/12 9:30 PM
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D241
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 What would any blackbelt owner have than their own blackbelt?


Jon Jones' belt.


It's bad ass to be able to beat bad asses in a grappling only competition. But imo, it's even more bad ass to beat ass in a fight, especially if you're beating the ass of a blackbelt.
9/23/12 9:30 PM
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Winston Wolf
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uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
Random Hero -  MMA is not BJJ. he would not have a chance in a BJJ tournament against a BB. just because he beats a BB in MMA doesnt mean he beats a BB in jiu jitsu. thats like saying Randy is better at boxing than Toney because he beat him in MMA. they are two different sports. MMA grappling isnt even close to no gi grappling nvm actual brazilian jiu jitsu. its a whole different game when you add strikes. untill they start ranking MMA fighters with belt colours, he is not a black belt. in my opinion his striking is a bigger asset to his ground game than his grappling is.

in short..... MMA is not BJJ!

phhhhhh Jones would put a clinic if he enterend a BJJ tourney.You think hed be an easy match cause a guy wears a belt that is black.Jacare couldnt beat Coutore and Jones grappling blows Coutores away and Jacare is among the best at BJJ

Totally different winston. No-Gi..Jones would of course do absolutely good in a No-Gi Tournament...He displayed great transitions. That is because of Greg Jackson as well. Greg Jackson has been coming to Grapplers QUest for years, In fact...before Diego Sanchez, Dodson, Jardine were popular they would be seen all the time competing in the older GQ tournaments...Their grappling back then though seemed more of a wrestling than anything else. You really didn't see so much submissions from them at all...but of course time goes by and their team just gets better and better. Our team for a long time held first place for many years here in Vegas.
Diego was breaking off a lot of our guys in class...until he put on a Gi.

gimme a break I got my purple in GI.Yes I know the grips and coller chokes etc make it different But not that much that witha GI I can all of a sudden beat Jones.Im a purple belt and Jones would kick the ever living crap out of me with or without GI

Are you serious? In a Gi match? JOnes would beat many BJJ Black Belts..Id say probably 100% of them.....in MMA.
Jones with the Gi, put lovato Jr. in there with jones...I would bet you $500 that Lovato Jr. Submits jones. Your talking night and day difference. It's just really hard to believe that you would really think that a Gi and No-Gi is only a little different.

id take that bet but how about u line up 100 BBs JOnes weight and have him grapple the number 50 guy in GI.Id bet my house Jones would win.Like i said i got my purple in GI and rolled GI as much as NO GI Yes theres differences but not enough so that with a GI I can hod my own against JOnes come on.Bring Jones to ur local BJJ club and see how he does
9/23/12 9:30 PM
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the ridler
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Winston I am not knocking Weidman. The point is that I believe he would beat Vinny in mma but not in grappling. Ie, mma dominance does not imply grappling dominance. I actually credit couture for not getting subbed by jacare. Jacare has beaten Roger in grappling before. To me, couture beats jones in straight grappling but obviously gets destroyed by him in mma..
9/23/12 9:31 PM
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Smith1234
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Didn't Rickson himself say a non-BJJ guy who was world class wrestler was his toughest guy to sub in no gi grappling?
9/23/12 9:31 PM
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wiggum
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If he entered a submission grappling tournament, he'd do better than at least half of the black belts in his weight class. That's my hunch, at least.
9/23/12 9:33 PM
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Brigham
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Yes he absolutely is Phone Post
9/23/12 9:33 PM
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the ridler
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Smith1234 - 
the ridler - 
Winston Wolf - 
Kostakio -  I wouldn't say he's a black belt but high purple or even a brown belt for sure. But of course, with his athleticism and confidence, he sure seems like it.

I still can't wait for him to lose though...

:) Phone Post

bring Jones to ur local BJJ club and tell me how he does.Wiedman kicked ass his first day.Jones is bigger and been grappling longer.Id say first day at Serras Wiedman was brown belt level.

Weidman was subbed by Vinny M in about 2 minutes in nogi. Weidman would win easily IMO if it was mma. Jones dominating in mma does not mean he would dominate in bjj, especially gi. Why do you think jones would out grapple couture? To me it's jones wrestling,reach,creativity and striking that make him what he is.

When are you guys going to stop using Vinny and Roger to say that Jones is not BB level?

Do you all unnastand that BJJ worlds, mundials, Vinny and Roger are not representative of the entire population of BJJ black beltS?

You missed the point completely. Pointy is that vinny won in straight grappling but would not win in mma. Ie grappling and mma are different.
9/23/12 9:34 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Winston Wolf - 
uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
Random Hero -  MMA is not BJJ. he would not have a chance in a BJJ tournament against a BB. just because he beats a BB in MMA doesnt mean he beats a BB in jiu jitsu. thats like saying Randy is better at boxing than Toney because he beat him in MMA. they are two different sports. MMA grappling isnt even close to no gi grappling nvm actual brazilian jiu jitsu. its a whole different game when you add strikes. untill they start ranking MMA fighters with belt colours, he is not a black belt. in my opinion his striking is a bigger asset to his ground game than his grappling is.

in short..... MMA is not BJJ!

phhhhhh Jones would put a clinic if he enterend a BJJ tourney.You think hed be an easy match cause a guy wears a belt that is black.Jacare couldnt beat Coutore and Jones grappling blows Coutores away and Jacare is among the best at BJJ

Totally different winston. No-Gi..Jones would of course do absolutely good in a No-Gi Tournament...He displayed great transitions. That is because of Greg Jackson as well. Greg Jackson has been coming to Grapplers QUest for years, In fact...before Diego Sanchez, Dodson, Jardine were popular they would be seen all the time competing in the older GQ tournaments...Their grappling back then though seemed more of a wrestling than anything else. You really didn't see so much submissions from them at all...but of course time goes by and their team just gets better and better. Our team for a long time held first place for many years here in Vegas.
Diego was breaking off a lot of our guys in class...until he put on a Gi.

gimme a break I got my purple in GI.Yes I know the grips and coller chokes etc make it different But not that much that witha GI I can all of a sudden beat Jones.Im a purple belt and Jones would kick the ever living crap out of me with or without GI

Are you serious? In a Gi match? JOnes would beat many BJJ Black Belts..Id say probably 100% of them.....in MMA.
Jones with the Gi, put lovato Jr. in there with jones...I would bet you $500 that Lovato Jr. Submits jones. Your talking night and day difference. It's just really hard to believe that you would really think that a Gi and No-Gi is only a little different.

id take that bet but how about u line up 100 BBs JOnes weight and have him grapple the number 50 guy in GI.Id bet my house Jones would win.Like i said i got my purple in GI and rolled GI as much as NO GI Yes theres differences but not enough so that with a GI I can hod my own against JOnes come on.Bring Jones to ur local BJJ club and see how he does

The Number 50 guy??? Come on Winston..you just said 28 out of 30 BJJ Black belts earlier. I got you thinking now huh? Anyways, Hey...that's your belief...and of course I got mine.

So anyways, my mind right now is Joe Lauzon vs Gray Maynard. Who you got?
9/23/12 9:35 PM
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Smith1234
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For all those saying Jones is not BB level --- what level is he?
9/23/12 9:36 PM
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BertR
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The advantage Jones has is he is an unbelievable professional athlete and physical specimen. That level of talent, training, and conditioning combined with decent bjj i think would take him far against recreational and non-professional bjj practitioners
9/23/12 9:36 PM
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Winston Wolf
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the ridler - Winston I am not knocking Weidman. The point is that I believe he would beat Vinny in mma but not in grappling. Ie, mma dominance does not imply grappling dominance. I actually credit couture for not getting subbed by jacare. Jacare has beaten Roger in grappling before. To me, couture beats jones in straight grappling but obviously gets destroyed by him in mma..

Vinnie is not ur everyday BB hes one of the best ever.And on a given day can sub anyone including Wiedman and possible Jones.Just because he lost once against one of the best doesnt mean he isnt BB level.
9/23/12 9:36 PM
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Random Hero
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Smith1234 - 
disconnect - 
Smith1234 - ^^ you seem smart. Stop being so dogmatic. Think beyond the gi. Looks beyond it to the core of what you HAVE seen without the gi. Base your answer on that.

If it is helpful, base it on ADCC Jones vs any of the Pride LHWs who had BJJ black belts.

Put the gi aside, please, for just a moment.

do you even realize what you're saying? you're asking this guy to rank jones by putting aside the very thing that separates actual bjj from submission wrestling or no gi grappling...the gi. jiu jitsu with gi & grappling without it are 2 different worlds.

No, they are not two different worlds. They are two very similar worlds.

Why do you think guys who trane the vast majority of the time in the gi also do well at ADCC? Please think about this and realize the incontrovertable truth of the matter.

Let me explain what two different worlds are. BJJ is a different world from football, swimming and baseball.

  in the gi you have to be more technical. in the gi you learn techniques that work well in both gi and no gi[example: armdrags triangles....]. but your obviously not learning no spider guard or DLR, the different sweeps and passes that require the gi, without it. the coller choke would be the first thing he taps to.
9/23/12 9:36 PM
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uniquetechnique
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wiggum - If he entered a submission grappling tournament, he'd do better than at least half of the black belts in his weight class. That's my hunch, at least.

His grappling is second to none. He might have been caught in that arm bar but I have known Greg Jackson's team since 2003 through Grapplers Quest and his team was one of the best at that time too.
9/23/12 9:37 PM
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Kostakio
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D241 -  What would any blackbelt owner have than their own blackbelt?


Jon Jones' belt.


It's bad ass to be able to beat bad asses in a grappling only competition. But imo, it's even more bad ass to beat ass in a fight, especially if you're beating the ass of a blackbelt.
Did anyone here claim differently? Phone Post
9/23/12 9:38 PM
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Gomrad
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BertR -
Gomrad -  When it comes to MMA fighting BJJ is not the mystical force it once was... Man for man Wrestling produces better athletes / fighters then BJJ. This fact is hard for some pee to deal with...

Ex: King Mo's Right Pimp Hand proved to be stronger then 10x World BJJ Champion chin. Phone Post

I disagree. For example, if MMA was fought without rounds and time constraints, that would give a significant advantage to bjj-oriented practitioners to not feel pressured into doing rushed bjj which would allow for better set-ups and capitalizing on errors from their opponent
You have a valid point if fights were held with no time limit matches.

However from an athletic talent standpoint can you agree wrestlers are superior to BJJ practitioners? ex Sakuraba vs Royce fighting with no time limit per Gracie family request) Phone Post
9/23/12 9:40 PM
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Winston Wolf
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uniquetechnique - 
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uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
Random Hero -  MMA is not BJJ. he would not have a chance in a BJJ tournament against a BB. just because he beats a BB in MMA doesnt mean he beats a BB in jiu jitsu. thats like saying Randy is better at boxing than Toney because he beat him in MMA. they are two different sports. MMA grappling isnt even close to no gi grappling nvm actual brazilian jiu jitsu. its a whole different game when you add strikes. untill they start ranking MMA fighters with belt colours, he is not a black belt. in my opinion his striking is a bigger asset to his ground game than his grappling is.

in short..... MMA is not BJJ!

phhhhhh Jones would put a clinic if he enterend a BJJ tourney.You think hed be an easy match cause a guy wears a belt that is black.Jacare couldnt beat Coutore and Jones grappling blows Coutores away and Jacare is among the best at BJJ

Totally different winston. No-Gi..Jones would of course do absolutely good in a No-Gi Tournament...He displayed great transitions. That is because of Greg Jackson as well. Greg Jackson has been coming to Grapplers QUest for years, In fact...before Diego Sanchez, Dodson, Jardine were popular they would be seen all the time competing in the older GQ tournaments...Their grappling back then though seemed more of a wrestling than anything else. You really didn't see so much submissions from them at all...but of course time goes by and their team just gets better and better. Our team for a long time held first place for many years here in Vegas.
Diego was breaking off a lot of our guys in class...until he put on a Gi.

gimme a break I got my purple in GI.Yes I know the grips and coller chokes etc make it different But not that much that witha GI I can all of a sudden beat Jones.Im a purple belt and Jones would kick the ever living crap out of me with or without GI

Are you serious? In a Gi match? JOnes would beat many BJJ Black Belts..Id say probably 100% of them.....in MMA.
Jones with the Gi, put lovato Jr. in there with jones...I would bet you $500 that Lovato Jr. Submits jones. Your talking night and day difference. It's just really hard to believe that you would really think that a Gi and No-Gi is only a little different.

id take that bet but how about u line up 100 BBs JOnes weight and have him grapple the number 50 guy in GI.Id bet my house Jones would win.Like i said i got my purple in GI and rolled GI as much as NO GI Yes theres differences but not enough so that with a GI I can hod my own against JOnes come on.Bring Jones to ur local BJJ club and see how he does

The Number 50 guy??? Come on Winston..you just said 28 out of 30 BJJ Black belts earlier. I got you thinking now huh? Anyways, Hey...that's your belief...and of course I got mine.

So anyways, my mind right now is Joe Lauzon vs Gray Maynard. Who you got?

my point is people say oh hes not BB cause Roger Gracie can beat him ah hes not average BB thats why i said 50th guy out of 100.I still think hed beat 28 out of 30 or 30 of 30 especially if u gave him time to train for it.Ah I got Maynard but tough fight.I want to see Lauzon against another BB ( dont know why but he usually fights strikers ) But Maynard is a grappler
9/23/12 9:40 PM
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Smith1234
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If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
9/23/12 9:43 PM
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BertR
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mma is sport fighting, not real fighting. Stop thinking of mma as if it simulates a street fight or something. I'd rather be the best at bjj if i loved bjj than be the best at mma if i didn't care about mma. If you want to be the best at street fighting, study that.

mma doesn't simulate street fighting. it simulates fighting that is culturally conditioned to respecting rules and being non-lethal. Being the best mma fighter is like being the best at sparring. It can help in a street fight, but it doesn't replicate it or the mentality of someone who wishes to try to use lethal violence, weapons, etc. and actually attempts it.
9/23/12 9:43 PM
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the ridler
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Winston Wolf - 
the ridler - Winston I am not knocking Weidman. The point is that I believe he would beat Vinny in mma but not in grappling. Ie, mma dominance does not imply grappling dominance. I actually credit couture for not getting subbed by jacare. Jacare has beaten Roger in grappling before. To me, couture beats jones in straight grappling but obviously gets destroyed by him in mma..

Vinnie is not ur everyday BB hes one of the best ever.And on a given day can sub anyone including Wiedman and possible Jones.Just because he lost once against one of the best doesnt mean he isnt BB level.

That's my point. Vinny can sub jones in grappling tourney but highly doubtful he could in mma. Of course Weidman is BB level. Nice guy too by the way.
9/23/12 9:44 PM
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Kostakio
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Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
Good question. Phone Post

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