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UnderGround Forums >> Is Jones Black Belt Level?


9/23/12 9:48 PM
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Gomrad
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Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
I am a wrestling coach and only train No Gi (on and off since mid 90's). I have tapped brown belts and black belts at different gyms training no Gi
I don't care to devote the needed time to Gi classes / testing. I have a lot of respect and admiration for the art and tradition of BJJ (and all grappling arts) but I don't think BJJ many purest feel that way about american folkstyle / catch-as-catch can wrestling. Phone Post
9/23/12 9:48 PM
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BertR
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Gomrad - 
BertR -
Gomrad -  When it comes to MMA fighting BJJ is not the mystical force it once was... Man for man Wrestling produces better athletes / fighters then BJJ. This fact is hard for some pee to deal with...

Ex: King Mo's Right Pimp Hand proved to be stronger then 10x World BJJ Champion chin. Phone Post

I disagree. For example, if MMA was fought without rounds and time constraints, that would give a significant advantage to bjj-oriented practitioners to not feel pressured into doing rushed bjj which would allow for better set-ups and capitalizing on errors from their opponent
You have a valid point if fights were held with no time limit matches.

However from an athletic talent standpoint can you agree wrestlers are superior to BJJ practitioners? ex Sakuraba vs Royce fighting with no time limit per Gracie family request) Phone Post

oh yeah, i agree in the sense that a part of wrestling culture is an emphasis on conditioning and strength moreso than bjj, but i think if someone trained as hard as a wrestler but was more proficient in bjj than wrestling, they would have more of an advantage to winning a fight because of the technique
9/23/12 9:49 PM
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Random Hero
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Kostakio - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
Good question. Phone Post

  they meant he is a black belt lever grappler in no gi, which like i said is not bjj and does not award belts. 
9/23/12 9:49 PM
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Winston Wolf
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all the people who dont think Jones is BB level are probly brown belts who want to beleieve they can beat Jones with GI .
9/23/12 9:50 PM
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Gomrad
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Sorry quoted smith instead of Bert, lol Phone Post
9/23/12 9:52 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Kostakio - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
Good question. Phone Post

Because, Joe is talking No-Gi Jiu Jitsu. Joe is a No-Gi Jiu Jitsu Black Belt under Eddie Bravo and now a BJJ Black Belt under JJ Machado. There are a lot of Jiu Jitsu schools doing this now. I remember Marc Laimon awarding Joe Daddy Stevenson his Black Belt...No-Gi.
Matt Hughes was entering Grapplers Quest tournaments back in 2001 I believe and was schooling some high level Jiu Jitsu guys. I have some of my team mates tell me that his strength is freakish when they grappled him.
9/23/12 9:53 PM
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Smith1234
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^^ Gomrad, even though you quoted the wrong person, I completely agree with you. If wrestling gave out belts it would have more credibility among the BJJ set, which makes no sense but it is what it is.

Also, if wrestling gave BBs it would be at the high school state champ or D1 wrestler level to be comparable to BJJ. These BJJ guys forget that not every black belt is Roger Gracie, just like every hypothetical wrestling black belt is not Dan Gable.
9/23/12 9:54 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Gomrad - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
I am a wrestling coach and only train No Gi (on and off since mid 90's). I have tapped brown belts and black belts at different gyms training no Gi
I don't care to devote the needed time to Gi classes / testing. I have a lot of respect and admiration for the art and tradition of BJJ (and all grappling arts) but I don't think BJJ many purest feel that way about american folkstyle / catch-as-catch can wrestling. Phone Post

I got a question for you...be honest.hehe
Have you ever trained in a Gi before ever? what was your experience like? I have heard from many..but want to hear from someone else who has schooled many BJJ Black Belts and Brown..No-Gi. Thanks
9/23/12 9:56 PM
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Gomrad
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BertR -
Gomrad - 
BertR -
Gomrad -  When it comes to MMA fighting BJJ is not the mystical force it once was... Man for man Wrestling produces better athletes / fighters then BJJ. This fact is hard for some pee to deal with...

Ex: King Mo's Right Pimp Hand proved to be stronger then 10x World BJJ Champion chin. Phone Post

I disagree. For example, if MMA was fought without rounds and time constraints, that would give a significant advantage to bjj-oriented practitioners to not feel pressured into doing rushed bjj which would allow for better set-ups and capitalizing on errors from their opponent
You have a valid point if fights were held with no time limit matches.

However from an athletic talent standpoint can you agree wrestlers are superior to BJJ practitioners? ex Sakuraba vs Royce fighting with no time limit per Gracie family request) Phone Post

oh yeah, i agree in the sense that a part of wrestling culture is an emphasis on conditioning and strength moreso than bjj, but i think if someone trained as hard as a wrestler but was more proficient in bjj than wrestling, they would have more of an advantage to winning a fight because of the technique
So you think the highest level fighters are wrestlers that can cross over to pick up submission (and obviously stand-up) knowledge... I believe that trend has proven itself in MMA. If you look at the top 10 world rankings in each weight class significantly more fighters come from a wrestling base then BJJ.

This undeniable logic is used to state that wrestling produces more and better top level fighters. Phone Post
9/23/12 9:56 PM
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Smith1234
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uniquetechnique - 
Kostakio - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
Good question. Phone Post

Because, Joe is talking No-Gi Jiu Jitsu. Joe is a No-Gi Jiu Jitsu Black Belt under Eddie Bravo and now a BJJ Black Belt under JJ Machado. There are a lot of Jiu Jitsu schools doing this now. I remember Marc Laimon awarding Joe Daddy Stevenson his Black Belt...No-Gi.
Matt Hughes was entering Grapplers Quest tournaments back in 2001 I believe and was schooling some high level Jiu Jitsu guys. I have some of my team mates tell me that his strength is freakish when they grappled him.

If Matt Hughes can school high level (what belt level are you referring to) grapplers at GQ, then isn't he high level grappler? Even if he does not trane gi, he somehow achieved that level in what others on this thread are saying are two different worlds??

My head hurts from the mental gymnastics required to deny that Hughes, or Jones, are BB level.
9/23/12 9:57 PM
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rockwell
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What's a Blackbelt level BJJ guy anyway?

Roger Gracie?

Vitor?

Shogun?

Vinny M?


Granted they are all BJJ BB but Vitor and Shogun combined have less sub wins than either Vinny or Roger have before breakfast each morning!

If JBJ was subbing guys like Vinny M we can talk.
9/23/12 10:00 PM
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Smith1234
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So Joe has BB in gi and no gi grappling. Yet they are different worlds. Is it just a coincidence he achieved the highest level in two totally unrelated things??

Let's all just agree that there is a high correlation to success b/t gi and no gi. Exactly the same? No. High transferene? Yes.

It seems like gi guys are clinging to their gi sorta like a TMA secret weapon.
9/23/12 10:00 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Smith1234 - 
uniquetechnique - 
Kostakio - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
Good question. Phone Post

Because, Joe is talking No-Gi Jiu Jitsu. Joe is a No-Gi Jiu Jitsu Black Belt under Eddie Bravo and now a BJJ Black Belt under JJ Machado. There are a lot of Jiu Jitsu schools doing this now. I remember Marc Laimon awarding Joe Daddy Stevenson his Black Belt...No-Gi.
Matt Hughes was entering Grapplers Quest tournaments back in 2001 I believe and was schooling some high level Jiu Jitsu guys. I have some of my team mates tell me that his strength is freakish when they grappled him.

If Matt Hughes can school high level (what belt level are you referring to) grapplers at GQ, then isn't he high level grappler? Even if he does not trane gi, he somehow achieved that level in what others on this thread are saying are two different worlds??

My head hurts from the mental gymnastics required to deny that Hughes, or Jones, are BB level.

This is back when he was schooling Purple belts and some Brown.
I think Jones and Matt Hughes are Jiu Jitsu Black Belts in No-Gi..they have proven it pretty much. I know Matt has....Jones..being with Greg Jackson for that long..I have no doubt in my mind he is Black Belt level...No Gi. With a Gi....Different story.
9/23/12 10:01 PM
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Smith1234
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Again, if Jones is not BB level, what is he?

(I am curious to see how much yall will stretch credibility, will you go to purple??)
9/23/12 10:01 PM
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torquemada
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Winston Wolf - hes clearly blackbelt level
Still not a Jones fan but this. Very good ground game. Positional control is just as important in bjj, and he's great at that.

Rashad has a bb, and I can't recall him ever going for a sub. Great positional control though. Phone Post
9/23/12 10:01 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Edited: 09/23/12 10:07 PM
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Smith1234 - So Joe has BB in gi and no gi grappling. Yet they are different worlds. Is it just a coincidence he achieved the highest level in two totally unrelated things??

Let's all just agree that there is a high correlation to success b/t gi and no gi. Exactly the same? No. High transferene? Yes.

It seems like gi guys are clinging to their gi sorta like a TMA secret weapon.

No Joe Daddy only has BJJ Black Belt in No-Gi.

Ok, That's how long Ive been out of the game. So Joe Daddy has a No-Gi Black Belt from Laimon and a Gi Black Belt from Robert Drysdale.
9/23/12 10:01 PM
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yellow wrkahlc
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rockwell - What's a Blackbelt level BJJ guy anyway?

Roger Gracie?

Vitor?

Shogun?

Vinny M?


Granted they are all BJJ BB but Vitor and Shogun combined have less sub wins than either Vinny or Roger have before breakfast each morning!

If JBJ was subbing guys like Vinny M we can talk.

  ...they eat sub wins for breakfast?
9/23/12 10:05 PM
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BertR
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Gomrad - 
BertR -
Gomrad - 
BertR -
Gomrad -  When it comes to MMA fighting BJJ is not the mystical force it once was... Man for man Wrestling produces better athletes / fighters then BJJ. This fact is hard for some pee to deal with...

Ex: King Mo's Right Pimp Hand proved to be stronger then 10x World BJJ Champion chin. Phone Post

I disagree. For example, if MMA was fought without rounds and time constraints, that would give a significant advantage to bjj-oriented practitioners to not feel pressured into doing rushed bjj which would allow for better set-ups and capitalizing on errors from their opponent
You have a valid point if fights were held with no time limit matches.

However from an athletic talent standpoint can you agree wrestlers are superior to BJJ practitioners? ex Sakuraba vs Royce fighting with no time limit per Gracie family request) Phone Post

oh yeah, i agree in the sense that a part of wrestling culture is an emphasis on conditioning and strength moreso than bjj, but i think if someone trained as hard as a wrestler but was more proficient in bjj than wrestling, they would have more of an advantage to winning a fight because of the technique
So you think the highest level fighters are wrestlers that can cross over to pick up submission (and obviously stand-up) knowledge... I believe that trend has proven itself in MMA. If you look at the top 10 world rankings in each weight class significantly more fighters come from a wrestling base then BJJ.

This undeniable logic is used to state that wrestling produces more and better top level fighters. Phone Post

I think wrestling is the best base for modern ufc-style mma, but i think ufc-style mma is designed to promote wrestling and striking in order to profit more from an American culture that understands an accepts those two forms more than technical grappling. It doesn't nullify bjj as an art because, as i said, if mma were to adopt no time limits the fighters with better submission grappling would have an improved advantage.

personally, i could care less what you call a fighting style, or trying to defend it. If something works, it works. If a catch wrestler applies a heel hook that works, that technique should be understood and improved upon if possible. To have it fall under the label of "wrestling" because of an emotional attachment to it is weird, but human.
9/23/12 10:05 PM
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Immaculata
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Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.

Joe is a commentator and a practioner who just got rewarded his Black Belt. He has an opinion while commentating, that's it. To be a Black Belt you have to be awarded a Black Belt by another Black Belt and usually that Black Belt has to consult with someone higher up in his association to do so.
9/23/12 10:07 PM
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Smith1234
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uniquetechnique - 
Smith1234 - 
uniquetechnique - 
Kostakio - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
Good question. Phone Post

Because, Joe is talking No-Gi Jiu Jitsu. Joe is a No-Gi Jiu Jitsu Black Belt under Eddie Bravo and now a BJJ Black Belt under JJ Machado. There are a lot of Jiu Jitsu schools doing this now. I remember Marc Laimon awarding Joe Daddy Stevenson his Black Belt...No-Gi.
Matt Hughes was entering Grapplers Quest tournaments back in 2001 I believe and was schooling some high level Jiu Jitsu guys. I have some of my team mates tell me that his strength is freakish when they grappled him.

If Matt Hughes can school high level (what belt level are you referring to) grapplers at GQ, then isn't he high level grappler? Even if he does not trane gi, he somehow achieved that level in what others on this thread are saying are two different worlds??

My head hurts from the mental gymnastics required to deny that Hughes, or Jones, are BB level.

This is back when he was schooling Purple belts and some Brown.
I think Jones and Matt Hughes are Jiu Jitsu Black Belts in No-Gi..they have proven it pretty much. I know Matt has....Jones..being with Greg Jackson for that long..I have no doubt in my mind he is Black Belt level...No Gi. With a Gi....Different story.

Ok, so please do answer since I respect your commentary, experience and opinion.

If not black, then what level in the gi?

And do you on your best day beat Jones in the GI? What belt are you?
9/23/12 10:10 PM
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Immaculata
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Lmao at awarding/deeming Jon Jones a Brazillian Jiu Jitsu Black Belt because of Joe Rogan!! That's awesome! Only the UG!
9/23/12 10:10 PM
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Smith1234
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BertR - 
Gomrad - 
BertR -
Gomrad - 
BertR -
Gomrad -  When it comes to MMA fighting BJJ is not the mystical force it once was... Man for man Wrestling produces better athletes / fighters then BJJ. This fact is hard for some pee to deal with...

Ex: King Mo's Right Pimp Hand proved to be stronger then 10x World BJJ Champion chin. Phone Post

I disagree. For example, if MMA was fought without rounds and time constraints, that would give a significant advantage to bjj-oriented practitioners to not feel pressured into doing rushed bjj which would allow for better set-ups and capitalizing on errors from their opponent
You have a valid point if fights were held with no time limit matches.

However from an athletic talent standpoint can you agree wrestlers are superior to BJJ practitioners? ex Sakuraba vs Royce fighting with no time limit per Gracie family request) Phone Post

oh yeah, i agree in the sense that a part of wrestling culture is an emphasis on conditioning and strength moreso than bjj, but i think if someone trained as hard as a wrestler but was more proficient in bjj than wrestling, they would have more of an advantage to winning a fight because of the technique
So you think the highest level fighters are wrestlers that can cross over to pick up submission (and obviously stand-up) knowledge... I believe that trend has proven itself in MMA. If you look at the top 10 world rankings in each weight class significantly more fighters come from a wrestling base then BJJ.

This undeniable logic is used to state that wrestling produces more and better top level fighters. Phone Post

I think wrestling is the best base for modern ufc-style mma, but i think ufc-style mma is designed to promote wrestling and striking in order to profit more from an American culture that understands an accepts those two forms more than technical grappling. It doesn't nullify bjj as an art because, as i said, if mma were to adopt no time limits the fighters with better submission grappling would have an improved advantage.

personally, i could care less what you call a fighting style, or trying to defend it. If something works, it works. If a catch wrestler applies a heel hook that works, that technique should be understood and improved upon if possible. To have it fall under the label of "wrestling" because of an emotional attachment to it is weird, but human.

Since when is wrestling not technical? This kind of ignorance towards BJJ would get shouted down. So I shout you down for suggesting that BJJ is techincal and wrestling is not. You are ignorant about wrestling.
9/23/12 10:12 PM
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D241
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rockwell - What's a Blackbelt level BJJ guy anyway?

Roger Gracie?

Vitor?

Shogun?

Vinny M?


Granted they are all BJJ BB but Vitor and Shogun combined have less sub wins than either Vinny or Roger have before breakfast each morning!

If JBJ was subbing guys like Vinny M we can talk.

  Roger, plus Vitor, plus Shogun, combined, have 8 submission victories in their entire mma careers.

Jon Jones has 6 submission wins, and he's only 25yrs old.


I feel people try to put the breaks on Jon Jones hype b/c he gets lots of praise, but based on what he's doing in mma, dude is a freaking powerhouse. 
9/23/12 10:12 PM
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Random Hero
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 you guys are asking if hes a BB at BJJ the answer is no. then your saying he better at other sports like MMA and no gi sub wrestling when the topic is on BJJ in the gi. yes he is a black belt level at mma grappling and wrestling. hendrix had a black belt in playing the guitar. its an analogy. when hughes is said to have a black belt level ground game they werent talking about BJJ in the gi. although hughes probably wouldnt be far from it if he started training in the gi. yes i agree that wrestling is producing better MMA fighters but that not what were here to discuss. a BB beats bones in a BJJ tourny under BJJ rules in a gi.
9/23/12 10:15 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Smith1234 - 
uniquetechnique - 
Smith1234 - 
uniquetechnique - 
Kostakio - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
Good question. Phone Post

Because, Joe is talking No-Gi Jiu Jitsu. Joe is a No-Gi Jiu Jitsu Black Belt under Eddie Bravo and now a BJJ Black Belt under JJ Machado. There are a lot of Jiu Jitsu schools doing this now. I remember Marc Laimon awarding Joe Daddy Stevenson his Black Belt...No-Gi.
Matt Hughes was entering Grapplers Quest tournaments back in 2001 I believe and was schooling some high level Jiu Jitsu guys. I have some of my team mates tell me that his strength is freakish when they grappled him.

If Matt Hughes can school high level (what belt level are you referring to) grapplers at GQ, then isn't he high level grappler? Even if he does not trane gi, he somehow achieved that level in what others on this thread are saying are two different worlds??

My head hurts from the mental gymnastics required to deny that Hughes, or Jones, are BB level.

This is back when he was schooling Purple belts and some Brown.
I think Jones and Matt Hughes are Jiu Jitsu Black Belts in No-Gi..they have proven it pretty much. I know Matt has....Jones..being with Greg Jackson for that long..I have no doubt in my mind he is Black Belt level...No Gi. With a Gi....Different story.

Ok, so please do answer since I respect your commentary, experience and opinion.

If not black, then what level in the gi?

And do you on your best day beat Jones in the GI? What belt are you?

I couldn't really say what belt he is. If he's never put on a Gi in his life then he could be a blue belt level or even worst. lol
I base this on watching No-Gi guys that are high level putting on a gi for the first time. Would I be able to beat Jones in a Gi? At my Prime...........Yea.

Your last question, Answer is on the thread here somewhere. :)

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