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UnderGround Forums >> Is Jones Black Belt Level?


9/23/12 10:15 PM
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Smith1234
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Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.

Joe is a commentator and a practioner who just got rewarded his Black Belt. He has an opinion while commentating, that's it. To be a Black Belt you have to be awarded a Black Belt by another Black Belt and usually that Black Belt has to consult with someone higher up in his association to do so.

You are full of technicalities. Thank you for explaining the mechanics of BB promotion.

And you are LOL'ing at Joe's opinion, is it because he is an announcer for the UFC, is it because he is an actual BB, because it can't be because he is a poster whose opinion I regard higher than yours.

So please do answer, what belt level do you think he is? Please just say it, put it out there in writing and say blue belt so then I can just dismiss you.
9/23/12 10:16 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.

Joe is a commentator and a practioner who just got rewarded his Black Belt. He has an opinion while commentating, that's it. To be a Black Belt you have to be awarded a Black Belt by another Black Belt and usually that Black Belt has to consult with someone higher up in his association to do so.

u think Rogan would beat Jones with GI ? I think even Rogan would admit Jones would win
9/23/12 10:18 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Gomrad - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
I am a wrestling coach and only train No Gi (on and off since mid 90's). I have tapped brown belts and black belts at different gyms training no Gi
I don't care to devote the needed time to Gi classes / testing. I have a lot of respect and admiration for the art and tradition of BJJ (and all grappling arts) but I don't think BJJ many purest feel that way about american folkstyle / catch-as-catch can wrestling. Phone Post

agreed.I wrestled and did BJJ and was equal at both.But BJJers seem to have trouble giving wrestlers their due
9/23/12 10:20 PM
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Smith1234
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uniquetechnique - 
Smith1234 - 
uniquetechnique - 
Smith1234 - 
uniquetechnique - 
Kostakio - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
Good question. Phone Post

Because, Joe is talking No-Gi Jiu Jitsu. Joe is a No-Gi Jiu Jitsu Black Belt under Eddie Bravo and now a BJJ Black Belt under JJ Machado. There are a lot of Jiu Jitsu schools doing this now. I remember Marc Laimon awarding Joe Daddy Stevenson his Black Belt...No-Gi.
Matt Hughes was entering Grapplers Quest tournaments back in 2001 I believe and was schooling some high level Jiu Jitsu guys. I have some of my team mates tell me that his strength is freakish when they grappled him.

If Matt Hughes can school high level (what belt level are you referring to) grapplers at GQ, then isn't he high level grappler? Even if he does not trane gi, he somehow achieved that level in what others on this thread are saying are two different worlds??

My head hurts from the mental gymnastics required to deny that Hughes, or Jones, are BB level.

This is back when he was schooling Purple belts and some Brown.
I think Jones and Matt Hughes are Jiu Jitsu Black Belts in No-Gi..they have proven it pretty much. I know Matt has....Jones..being with Greg Jackson for that long..I have no doubt in my mind he is Black Belt level...No Gi. With a Gi....Different story.

Ok, so please do answer since I respect your commentary, experience and opinion.

If not black, then what level in the gi?

And do you on your best day beat Jones in the GI? What belt are you?

I couldn't really say what belt he is. If he's never put on a Gi in his life then he could be a blue belt level or even worst. lol
I base this on watching No-Gi guys that are high level putting on a gi for the first time. Would I be able to beat Jones in a Gi? At my Prime...........Yea.

Your last question, Answer is on the thread here somewhere. :)

I am not going to argue with you, instead I will just let your statements sit out there for others to form opinions about.
9/23/12 10:20 PM
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BertR
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I didn't mean to imply wrestling wasn't technical. I'm sorry if i offended you.
9/23/12 10:21 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.

Joe is a commentator and a practioner who just got rewarded his Black Belt. He has an opinion while commentating, that's it. To be a Black Belt you have to be awarded a Black Belt by another Black Belt and usually that Black Belt has to consult with someone higher up in his association to do so.

u think Rogan would beat Jones with GI ? I think even Rogan would admit Jones would win

I'd love to hear his take. With a Gi..with his experience as well..Joe would say..he's take him any day. haha :)
9/23/12 10:22 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Smith1234 - 
uniquetechnique - 
Smith1234 - 
uniquetechnique - 
Smith1234 - 
uniquetechnique - 
Kostakio - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.
Good question. Phone Post

Because, Joe is talking No-Gi Jiu Jitsu. Joe is a No-Gi Jiu Jitsu Black Belt under Eddie Bravo and now a BJJ Black Belt under JJ Machado. There are a lot of Jiu Jitsu schools doing this now. I remember Marc Laimon awarding Joe Daddy Stevenson his Black Belt...No-Gi.
Matt Hughes was entering Grapplers Quest tournaments back in 2001 I believe and was schooling some high level Jiu Jitsu guys. I have some of my team mates tell me that his strength is freakish when they grappled him.

If Matt Hughes can school high level (what belt level are you referring to) grapplers at GQ, then isn't he high level grappler? Even if he does not trane gi, he somehow achieved that level in what others on this thread are saying are two different worlds??

My head hurts from the mental gymnastics required to deny that Hughes, or Jones, are BB level.

This is back when he was schooling Purple belts and some Brown.
I think Jones and Matt Hughes are Jiu Jitsu Black Belts in No-Gi..they have proven it pretty much. I know Matt has....Jones..being with Greg Jackson for that long..I have no doubt in my mind he is Black Belt level...No Gi. With a Gi....Different story.

Ok, so please do answer since I respect your commentary, experience and opinion.

If not black, then what level in the gi?

And do you on your best day beat Jones in the GI? What belt are you?

I couldn't really say what belt he is. If he's never put on a Gi in his life then he could be a blue belt level or even worst. lol
I base this on watching No-Gi guys that are high level putting on a gi for the first time. Would I be able to beat Jones in a Gi? At my Prime...........Yea.

Your last question, Answer is on the thread here somewhere. :)

I am not going to argue with you, instead I will just let your statements sit out there for others to form opinions about.

In other words..Your gonna let them drill me. lol
9/23/12 10:22 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Random Hero -  you guys are asking if hes a BB at BJJ the answer is no. then your saying he better at other sports like MMA and no gi sub wrestling when the topic is on BJJ in the gi. yes he is a black belt level at mma grappling and wrestling. hendrix had a black belt in playing the guitar. its an analogy. when hughes is said to have a black belt level ground game they werent talking about BJJ in the gi. although hughes probably wouldnt be far from it if he started training in the gi. yes i agree that wrestling is producing better MMA fighters but that not what were here to discuss. a BB beats bones in a BJJ tourny under BJJ rules in a gi.

what belt are you ? do u think u could beat Jones with GI ? Im purple belt in GI and I know damn well Jones would easilly beat me in GI
9/23/12 10:22 PM
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Smith1234
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BertR - I didn't mean to imply wrestling wasn't technical. I'm sorry if i offended you.

You didn't imply it, you said it.

"ufc-style mma is designed to promote wrestling and striking in order to profit more from an American culture that understands an accepts those two forms more than technical grappling"
9/23/12 10:24 PM
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wiggum
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What I will say is that as a Division I wrestler with about 4 months of no gi experience, I had trouble when I first put the gi on. Starting on the feet, I was beating blue belts, but purples had my number.

Take that for whatever it's worth.
9/23/12 10:25 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Smith1234 - 
BertR - I didn't mean to imply wrestling wasn't technical. I'm sorry if i offended you.

You didn't imply it, you said it.

"ufc-style mma is designed to promote wrestling and striking in order to profit more from an American culture that understands an accepts those two forms more than technical grappling"

Ill be honest about it BJJers often act like snobs thinking how technical their grappling is.Wrestling is equally technical .If not weight lifters would be great wrestlers They arent
9/23/12 10:26 PM
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uniquetechnique
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wiggum - What I will say is that as a Division I wrestler with about 4 months of no gi experience, I had trouble when I first put the gi on. Starting on the feet, I was beating blue belts, but purples had my number.

Take that for whatever it's worth.

Thanks Wiggum.
9/23/12 10:27 PM
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Winston Wolf
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uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.

Joe is a commentator and a practioner who just got rewarded his Black Belt. He has an opinion while commentating, that's it. To be a Black Belt you have to be awarded a Black Belt by another Black Belt and usually that Black Belt has to consult with someone higher up in his association to do so.

u think Rogan would beat Jones with GI ? I think even Rogan would admit Jones would win

I'd love to hear his take. With a Gi..with his experience as well..Joe would say..he's take him any day. haha :)

im asking you who would win ?
9/23/12 10:29 PM
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Immaculata
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Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.

Joe is a commentator and a practioner who just got rewarded his Black Belt. He has an opinion while commentating, that's it. To be a Black Belt you have to be awarded a Black Belt by another Black Belt and usually that Black Belt has to consult with someone higher up in his association to do so.

u think Rogan would beat Jones with GI ? I think even Rogan would admit Jones would win

Dude, you're slow. Joe would kill JBJ in knowledge of the art of BJJ.
9/23/12 10:30 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Winston Wolf - 
Smith1234 - 
BertR - I didn't mean to imply wrestling wasn't technical. I'm sorry if i offended you.

You didn't imply it, you said it.

"ufc-style mma is designed to promote wrestling and striking in order to profit more from an American culture that understands an accepts those two forms more than technical grappling"

Ill be honest about it BJJers often act like snobs thinking how technical their grappling is.Wrestling is equally technical .If not weight lifters would be great wrestlers They arent

Very True!
Your an 01'r..so you know it's a different world now. It was always "BJJ can beat this and that" Now, every grappling school has implemented or put in Jiu Jitsu. Submission Wrestling has evolved in many many Martial Arts schools.
I used to teach a lot of wrestlers back in San Diego and rolled with many..even Div 1 wrestlers..their grappling is second to none and it was very easy to teach them. The only thing they had to get out of their system was being comfortable on their backs..they hated it.
9/23/12 10:31 PM
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BertR
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Smith1234 - 
BertR - I didn't mean to imply wrestling wasn't technical. I'm sorry if i offended you.

You didn't imply it, you said it.

"ufc-style mma is designed to promote wrestling and striking in order to profit more from an American culture that understands an accepts those two forms more than technical grappling"

I understand. I clarified that by changing it to submission grappling later in the same post. Obviously many fight arts are technical, wrestling included.
9/23/12 10:31 PM
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Winston Wolf
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wiggum - What I will say is that as a Division I wrestler with about 4 months of no gi experience, I had trouble when I first put the gi on. Starting on the feet, I was beating blue belts, but purples had my number.

Take that for whatever it's worth.

i wasnt D1 level but after a few months of GI training I liked it and used it.If u are a good wrestler and u put GI on and just wrestle u will have trouble.You have to use it as well Not just defend it.When i grappled people I wouldnt be like oh crap we are in GI Im scared ( of same guy I just grappled no GI )
9/23/12 10:31 PM
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uniquetechnique
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Winston Wolf - 
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Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.

Joe is a commentator and a practioner who just got rewarded his Black Belt. He has an opinion while commentating, that's it. To be a Black Belt you have to be awarded a Black Belt by another Black Belt and usually that Black Belt has to consult with someone higher up in his association to do so.

u think Rogan would beat Jones with GI ? I think even Rogan would admit Jones would win

I'd love to hear his take. With a Gi..with his experience as well..Joe would say..he's take him any day. haha :)

im asking you who would win ?

Joe would
9/23/12 10:34 PM
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wiggum
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Winston Wolf - 
wiggum - What I will say is that as a Division I wrestler with about 4 months of no gi experience, I had trouble when I first put the gi on. Starting on the feet, I was beating blue belts, but purples had my number.

Take that for whatever it's worth.

i wasnt D1 level but after a few months of GI training I liked it and used it.If u are a good wrestler and u put GI on and just wrestle u will have trouble.You have to use it as well Not just defend it.When i grappled people I wouldnt be like oh crap we are in GI Im scared ( of same guy I just grappled no GI )

No doubt. I started feeling really comfortable with the gi after about a month.
9/23/12 10:37 PM
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Winston Wolf
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Edited: 09/23/12 10:37 PM
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<blockquote>wiggum - <blockquote>Winston Wolf - <blockquote>wiggum - What I will say is that as a Division I wrestler with about 4 months of no gi experience, I had trouble when I first put the gi on. Starting on the feet, I was beating blue belts, but purples had my number. <br /><br />Take that for whatever it's worth.</blockquote><br /> i wasnt D1 level but after a few months of GI training I liked it and used it.If u are a good wrestler and u put GI on and just wrestle u will have trouble.You have to use it as well Not just defend it.When i grappled people I wouldnt be like oh crap we are in GI Im scared ( of same guy I just grappled no GI )</blockquote><br />No doubt. I started feeling really comfortable with the gi after about a month.</blockquote><br /> ill be honest I much prefer no GI.If Im in a fight first thing im going to do is take my jacket off ( if i get chance ) Not put it on.But GI grappling is tougher because Im much more on the defence But on the other hand if i get the chance to use GI against u Ill try and choke the shit out of u with it r grab it like my life depends on it
9/23/12 10:37 PM
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uniquetechnique
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wiggum - 
Winston Wolf - 
wiggum - What I will say is that as a Division I wrestler with about 4 months of no gi experience, I had trouble when I first put the gi on. Starting on the feet, I was beating blue belts, but purples had my number.

Take that for whatever it's worth.

i wasnt D1 level but after a few months of GI training I liked it and used it.If u are a good wrestler and u put GI on and just wrestle u will have trouble.You have to use it as well Not just defend it.When i grappled people I wouldnt be like oh crap we are in GI Im scared ( of same guy I just grappled no GI )

No doubt. I started feeling really comfortable with the gi after about a month.

I can see JBJ getting comfortable as well and start taking off. I am sure his learning curve is off the charts. But, Put a Gi on him for the first time like I said, He'll be helpless if you ask me.
9/23/12 10:38 PM
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Smith1234
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wiggum - What I will say is that as a Division I wrestler with about 4 months of no gi experience, I had trouble when I first put the gi on. Starting on the feet, I was beating blue belts, but purples had my number.

Take that for whatever it's worth.

How surmountable, or insurmountable, would you say the lack of gi knowledge/experience is?

A couple other points as I try to extrapolate from your experience to what Jon's might be

1. Jones in LHW champ of UFC and has subbed black belts in MMA.

2. Jones has a lot more than 4 months of no gi grappling experience, and his training is at world class level with top partners.

3. He may even have gi experience that is greater than zero, I don't know.

It is an interesting data point you offered, but to extrapolate from that to Jon Jones we would have to assume Jon would do vastly better than you did at gi.
9/23/12 10:40 PM
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hermanitor
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Jones is not close to a black belt in jiu jitsu. His classic jiu jitsu is not particularly good.

He IS however a VERY good/excellent overall grappler. His wrestling, Positioning, and Ground and Pound are more than a match for ANYONE on the ground.

I do think however, that he can fall into traps set by BJJ players, because he doesn't formally play that game.

His armbar escape in this fight was indeed technically wrong, and he appears how have hyperextended his arm at the elbow. Technically you are supposed to stack the opponent, not pull out, which only completes the armbar. Tim Sylvia made this *exact* same mistake against Frnak Mur. No one was claiming big Tim was black belt caliber.

I think Jones IS at risk for losing via. armbar to a technical formal jiu jitsu player. This fight shows a real issue. A better BJJ player than Vitor might finish that submission. Jones does leave his arms out a bit too much.

So yeah. Jones is a black belt in grappling, but not a black belt in BJJ.
9/23/12 10:40 PM
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Winston Wolf
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uniquetechnique - 
wiggum - 
Winston Wolf - 
wiggum - What I will say is that as a Division I wrestler with about 4 months of no gi experience, I had trouble when I first put the gi on. Starting on the feet, I was beating blue belts, but purples had my number.

Take that for whatever it's worth.

i wasnt D1 level but after a few months of GI training I liked it and used it.If u are a good wrestler and u put GI on and just wrestle u will have trouble.You have to use it as well Not just defend it.When i grappled people I wouldnt be like oh crap we are in GI Im scared ( of same guy I just grappled no GI )

No doubt. I started feeling really comfortable with the gi after about a month.

I can see JBJ getting comfortable as well and start taking off. I am sure his learning curve is off the charts. But, Put a Gi on him for the first time like I said, He'll be helpless if you ask me.

what belt are u ? do u think u can beat Jones in GI ? helpless ? I doubt u have even ever grappled ? ya Jon Jones the same guy who choked blackbelt Machada a sleep and subbed Vitor would be like a deer Like a Bambi in a GI ? R u like a purple belt who wants to believe somehow with a GI u could beat Jones ?
9/23/12 10:42 PM
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Winston Wolf
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uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
uniquetechnique - 
Winston Wolf - 
Immaculata - 
Smith1234 - If gi and no gi are so separate, why do many legit BJJ BBs say Hughes is black belt level. Including Joe Rogan himself.

Joe is a commentator and a practioner who just got rewarded his Black Belt. He has an opinion while commentating, that's it. To be a Black Belt you have to be awarded a Black Belt by another Black Belt and usually that Black Belt has to consult with someone higher up in his association to do so.

u think Rogan would beat Jones with GI ? I think even Rogan would admit Jones would win

I'd love to hear his take. With a Gi..with his experience as well..Joe would say..he's take him any day. haha :)

im asking you who would win ?

Joe would

i differ

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