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UnderGround Forums >> Is Jones Black Belt Level?


9/24/12 12:31 AM
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hermanitor
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Winston Wolf - 
hermanitor - Jones is not close to a black belt in jiu jitsu. His classic jiu jitsu is not particularly good.

He IS however a VERY good/excellent overall grappler. His wrestling, Positioning, and Ground and Pound are more than a match for ANYONE on the ground.

I do think however, that he can fall into traps set by BJJ players, because he doesn't formally play that game.

His armbar escape in this fight was indeed technically wrong, and he appears how have hyperextended his arm at the elbow. Technically you are supposed to stack the opponent, not pull out, which only completes the armbar. Tim Sylvia made this *exact* same mistake against Frnak Mur. No one was claiming big Tim was black belt caliber.

I think Jones IS at risk for losing via. armbar to a technical formal jiu jitsu player. This fight shows a real issue. A better BJJ player than Vitor might finish that submission. Jones does leave his arms out a bit too much.

So yeah. Jones is a black belt in grappling, but not a black belt in BJJ.

whats classic BJJ LMFAO

You know, wearin a Gi? Training BJJ at a BJJ academy, and not an MMA gym? Learning the basics and practicing in that one art for YEARS.

Tell me, how many formal BJJ blackbelts are going to pull out of an armbar like that? Extend their arms in guard like Jones does, Etc. These are classic no-nos in BJJ.

Is your issue with my use of the word 'classic'? I don't follow.

Still though, as I said before, Jones is a black belt in grappling, in pure/formal/classic/gi/whatever BJJ....he is learning FAST, but he makes technical mistakes that a black belt would not.
9/24/12 12:37 AM
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hermanitor
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Smith1234 - 
hermanitor - Jones is not close to a black belt in jiu jitsu. His classic jiu jitsu is not particularly good.

He IS however a VERY good/excellent overall grappler. His wrestling, Positioning, and Ground and Pound are more than a match for ANYONE on the ground.

I do think however, that he can fall into traps set by BJJ players, because he doesn't formally play that game.

His armbar escape in this fight was indeed technically wrong, and he appears how have hyperextended his arm at the elbow. Technically you are supposed to stack the opponent, not pull out, which only completes the armbar. Tim Sylvia made this *exact* same mistake against Frnak Mur. No one was claiming big Tim was black belt caliber.

I think Jones IS at risk for losing via. armbar to a technical formal jiu jitsu player. This fight shows a real issue. A better BJJ player than Vitor might finish that submission. Jones does leave his arms out a bit too much.

So yeah. Jones is a black belt in grappling, but not a black belt in BJJ.

Am I the only one that finds the following combination of things to be ironic? Oh, the ironing.

1. Vitor has been a BJJ BB for like 20 years

2. Vitor had Jones in a deep armbar

3. Jones, the rankless grappler, used an improper escape to get out of the long time BB tight arm bar

4. Jones, the rankless grappler, then later submits the long time BJJ guy.

5. A better BJJ guy than Vitor would have had the sub. (Are you saying Vitor is a bad black belt? Perhaps he is, but so are a lot of black belts then!)

I don't follow. All of things you said are correct. "He used an improper escape" says it all, no? That escape dislocated his elbow (apparently). I doubt he'll make it again.

Am I saying Vitor is a 'bad' blackbelt? Well, it's common knowledge that it was gifted to him all those 20 years ago. You aware of this, no? You are aware that not all blackbelts are equal, no?

Truthfully, yes. As far as blackbelts in MMA, Vitor is not Damian Maia. Is the BJJ blackbelt in MMA that uses BJJ less effectively and often than him? I'm struggling to find a name. It's common knowledge that Vitor, while technically a blasckbelt, is not a BJJ machine.

Where is the irony exactly? Is it the Alanis Morsette type?
9/24/12 12:38 AM
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Dazednconfused
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WestsideStrangler - His shit is set up from beating guys up first.  He hasn't subbed anyone without beating them up or tiring them out first.  I promise you if ME and him rolled I would sub the shit out of him and I also promise you if I fought him if he wanted to sub me he could win by submission.  The guys a freaky athlete and he uses it well in the cage but he is not near black belt level in gi or nogi Jiu-Jitsu.
Well said. You don't need to be blackbelt level to sub a guy who's had the shit beaten out of him already. Phone Post
9/24/12 12:40 AM
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hermanitor
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Winston Wolf - 
Smith1234 - 
hermanitor - Jones is not close to a black belt in jiu jitsu. His classic jiu jitsu is not particularly good.

He IS however a VERY good/excellent overall grappler. His wrestling, Positioning, and Ground and Pound are more than a match for ANYONE on the ground.

I do think however, that he can fall into traps set by BJJ players, because he doesn't formally play that game.

His armbar escape in this fight was indeed technically wrong, and he appears how have hyperextended his arm at the elbow. Technically you are supposed to stack the opponent, not pull out, which only completes the armbar. Tim Sylvia made this *exact* same mistake against Frnak Mur. No one was claiming big Tim was black belt caliber.

I think Jones IS at risk for losing via. armbar to a technical formal jiu jitsu player. This fight shows a real issue. A better BJJ player than Vitor might finish that submission. Jones does leave his arms out a bit too much.

So yeah. Jones is a black belt in grappling, but not a black belt in BJJ.

Am I the only one that finds the following combination of things to be ironic? Oh, the ironing.

1. Vitor has been a BJJ BB for like 20 years

2. Vitor had Jones in a deep armbar

3. Jones, the rankless grappler, used an improper escape to get out of the long time BB tight arm bar

4. Jones, the rankless grappler, then later submits the long time BJJ guy.

5. A better BJJ guy than Vitor would have had the sub. (Are you saying Vitor is a bad black belt? Perhaps he is, but so are a lot of black belts then!)

his technique in an MMA fight was not incorrect He could have slammed his way out which is illegal in BJJ.But he got out and IMO wasnt even near being subbed

Exactly why I say he is a blackbelt in MMA and overall grappling. He's the champ, nuff said.

In BJJ, no, what he did was technically wrong. I don't know how Jones would do against Roger Gracie in ADCC or the Mundials for sure....but I don't think he does particularly well.

9/24/12 12:44 AM
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hermanitor
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Then again, no one does well vs. Roger...
9/24/12 12:53 AM
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Wasa-B
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Edited: 09/24/12 12:55 AM
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9/24/12 1:01 AM
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Wasa-B
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MMA is still the new TMA.

Not finishing an armbar against Jon Jones means you aint really a black belt.
9/24/12 1:16 AM
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kevinchhay
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Edited: 09/24/12 1:17 AM
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9/24/12 1:19 AM
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kevinchhay
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Don't take offense to what I'm saying without saying it

On another side avenue I just want to point out Vitor is not only 10 years his elder but has been fighting for 15 years

That takes a toll on most fighters
9/24/12 1:31 AM
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paul117
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Hell to the no Phone Post
9/24/12 1:38 AM
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plasticonoband
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Winston Wolf -
Caught_clean - 
Smith1234 - LOL at criticizing an escape from a deep armbar. Classic BJJ mentality. Aren't you the guy who was talking shit on Chhay?

He has some good BJJ but I dont see how you can defend his defense there. Standing up and shaking out of a extended armbar is literally the first thing you are taught not to do lol. More or less he was aware he was in deep trouble and was going to get a bit injured to get his arm out in a world title fight. He was willing for that to happen and still went on to fight multiple rounds and win.

As far as his GnP I agree with above posters its pretty technical.

bull shit..what belt level are u ? Im purple belt and shaking works well especially in MMA and it worked didnt it.Close counts for absolutly shit in MMA.Close so freaking what and if u ask me it wasnt anywhere near close
Damn caught_clean, you must be a white shirt!!! Lol ;) Phone Post
9/24/12 1:52 AM
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AGC IV
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People put to much emphasis on the term "BLACKBELT" like its the end all be all.

Dont mess with him he's a blackbelt!!!


Some schools hand them out like candy, although most BJJ schools are much diff about it and make you really earn it.

That being said MMA grappling is completely diff than your traditional BBJ with GI.

Many would sub Jones but as far as yes his MMA level grappling is highly effective and blackbelt level. Hence the list of black belts he has subbed. Its irrelevant that he wears them down first. Phone Post
9/24/12 1:59 AM
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hermanitor
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Wasa-B - MMA is still the new TMA.

Not finishing an armbar against Jon Jones means you aint really a black belt.

I'm not sure anyone is making that argument. The arguments being pushed around regard if Jones is 'blackbelt caliber'. I and many others don't believe he is. Why do you think he is?

Machida is certainly a blackbelt, and he was subbed by jones. But, that was in an MMA fight, after really get beaten. Forrest subbed a gassed shogun. SHit happens in MMA that would not happen in a BJJ match.

Most people have learned that your skill in BJJ decreases as you get the shit kicked out of you.... a long time ago. I could sub Rickson gracie if he were half way to dream land. Well, maybe not..but close.
9/24/12 2:02 AM
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hermanitor
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AGC IV -  People put to much emphasis on the term "BLACKBELT" like its the end all be all.

Dont mess with him he's a blackbelt!!!


Some schools hand them out like candy, although most BJJ schools are much diff about it and make you really earn it.

That being said MMA grappling is completely diff than your traditional BBJ with GI.

Many would sub Jones but as far as yes his MMA level grappling is highly effective and blackbelt level. Hence the list of black belts he has subbed. Its irrelevant that he wears them down first. Phone Post

A blackbelt in BJJ still means a ton. Check this website, every few weeks there is a new thread about discovering a new fake blackbelt to harass.

Fake black belts do not last long in the BJJ community.

If you're not a black belt (or high brown, or super talented bigger purple) you are not subbing a blackbelt in jiu jitsu. Well, it's happened I'm sure...but very few, and very far between.

So yeah, a blackbelt in BJJ means a shitload more than in any other art. Period.
9/24/12 5:30 AM
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Kostakio
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WestsideStrangler - His shit is set up from beating guys up first.  He hasn't subbed anyone without beating them up or tiring them out first.  I promise you if ME and him rolled I would sub the shit out of him and I also promise you if I fought him if he wanted to sub me he could win by submission.  The guys a freaky athlete and he uses it well in the cage but he is not near black belt level in gi or nogi Jiu-Jitsu.
Thank you. There you have it. Phone Post
9/24/12 5:39 AM
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Winston Wolf
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uniquetechnique - 
WestsideStrangler - His shit is set up from beating guys up first.  He hasn't subbed anyone without beating them up or tiring them out first.  I promise you if ME and him rolled I would sub the shit out of him and I also promise you if I fought him if he wanted to sub me he could win by submission.  The guys a freaky athlete and he uses it well in the cage but he is not near black belt level in gi or nogi Jiu-Jitsu.

Hope you guys are happy, Heres a real pro tellin it. Chris has trained Gi since 1993. :)

or is it 1992? haha

id have to see it to believe it
9/24/12 5:42 AM
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Winston Wolf
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Kostakio - 
WestsideStrangler - His shit is set up from beating guys up first.  He hasn't subbed anyone without beating them up or tiring them out first.  I promise you if ME and him rolled I would sub the shit out of him and I also promise you if I fought him if he wanted to sub me he could win by submission.  The guys a freaky athlete and he uses it well in the cage but he is not near black belt level in gi or nogi Jiu-Jitsu.
Thank you. There you have it. Phone Post

id have to see it to believe it .Hes not near BBlevel come on.Im purple belt im not too far from BB yet Jones is ? And I promis if JOnes went to a BJJ club hed kick ass especially NO GI.
9/24/12 5:44 AM
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CaptainBurma
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Facking bjj elitists...your teachers would cream their gi's for the privilege of rolling 5 mins with Jones, to gauge where they are, with or without gi's and you know this...even if your teacher is Roger...
9/24/12 5:45 AM
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Winston Wolf
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hermanitor - 
Winston Wolf - 
hermanitor - Jones is not close to a black belt in jiu jitsu. His classic jiu jitsu is not particularly good.

He IS however a VERY good/excellent overall grappler. His wrestling, Positioning, and Ground and Pound are more than a match for ANYONE on the ground.

I do think however, that he can fall into traps set by BJJ players, because he doesn't formally play that game.

His armbar escape in this fight was indeed technically wrong, and he appears how have hyperextended his arm at the elbow. Technically you are supposed to stack the opponent, not pull out, which only completes the armbar. Tim Sylvia made this *exact* same mistake against Frnak Mur. No one was claiming big Tim was black belt caliber.

I think Jones IS at risk for losing via. armbar to a technical formal jiu jitsu player. This fight shows a real issue. A better BJJ player than Vitor might finish that submission. Jones does leave his arms out a bit too much.

So yeah. Jones is a black belt in grappling, but not a black belt in BJJ.

whats classic BJJ LMFAO

You know, wearin a Gi? Training BJJ at a BJJ academy, and not an MMA gym? Learning the basics and practicing in that one art for YEARS.

Tell me, how many formal BJJ blackbelts are going to pull out of an armbar like that? Extend their arms in guard like Jones does, Etc. These are classic no-nos in BJJ.

Is your issue with my use of the word 'classic'? I don't follow.

Still though, as I said before, Jones is a black belt in grappling, in pure/formal/classic/gi/whatever BJJ....he is learning FAST, but he makes technical mistakes that a black belt would not.

that wasnt a BJJ match it was MMA He tried to slam his way out at first which u cant do in BJJ and ah did he get out ? yes.Thats the bottem line and lmao at close sub.Close doesnt count for a darn thing
9/24/12 5:47 AM
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ColdKiller X
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FinestScotch - Freak body more than technique imo, even though he is very good.


you can pretty much say this about his entire game.

he is certainly an interesting specimen.

9/24/12 8:24 AM
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wiggum
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Smith1234 - 
wiggum - What I will say is that as a Division I wrestler with about 4 months of no gi experience, I had trouble when I first put the gi on. Starting on the feet, I was beating blue belts, but purples had my number.

Take that for whatever it's worth.

How surmountable, or insurmountable, would you say the lack of gi knowledge/experience is?

A couple other points as I try to extrapolate from your experience to what Jon's might be

1. Jones in LHW champ of UFC and has subbed black belts in MMA.

2. Jones has a lot more than 4 months of no gi grappling experience, and his training is at world class level with top partners.

3. He may even have gi experience that is greater than zero, I don't know.

It is an interesting data point you offered, but to extrapolate from that to Jon Jones we would have to assume Jon would do vastly better than you did at gi.

"1. Jones in LHW champ of UFC and has subbed black belts in MMA."

He has. But as Brennan said, it doesn't really indicate that his submission grappling is better than theirs. This isn't a technical thing - it's that Jones first beat the shit out of the guys and then subbed them.

"2. Jones has a lot more than 4 months of no gi grappling experience, and his training is at world class level with top partners."

You're right.

I posted my experience simply for what it's worth. I honestly don't know how Jones would do against a black belt. My hunch is that if he entered an average BJJ tournament at nogi, he'd do better than half of the black belts, making him black belt level.

Give him a month in the gi, he'd do pretty well with a gi.
9/24/12 8:43 AM
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Winston Wolf
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been watching MMA since UFC 1 and can count on 1 hand BBs that been subbed by non ranked fighters.If its so commen in MMA lets see someone name 10 times its happened
9/24/12 8:47 AM
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wiggum
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^^So have I. Name 10 times there's been another Jon Jones.
9/24/12 9:06 AM
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Smith1234
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Hermanator, the irony is that you criticize the non-ranked BJJ fighter for using an improper escape. Why don't you critisize the black belt for allowing that escape to work instead? After all, it is he who is the back belt!

Also, why don't you criticize the black belt for getting subbed. Perhaps he should at least have let it get broken like Nog and so many other black belts before him.

And yes, I know Vitor's history and alluded to it up front when I said that I don't want to discuss how he got it, just accept that he has it and is at this level now.

In short, instead of criticizing Jon's BJJ in that fight, perhaps you should congratulate him. Or if hating is your game, then criticize Vitor, not the guy who escaped and won by sub and isn't even ranked!
9/24/12 9:07 AM
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Smith1234
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Hermantor, to answer this question "You are aware that not all blackbelts are equal, no?"

Hell, I have been trying to make this point the entire thread when people use Roger or Demian Maia or whoever to say that is the benchmark to see if jon is black belt.

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