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HolyGround >> Which Candidate Represents the Religious Community


10/3/12 11:13 PM
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770mdm
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Candidates may be discussing the Economy and Health Care now.  Soon, the candidates will be discussing Foreign Policy.  Which candidate better fosters G-d's vision for humanity?  At their core, many of these views have roots in religious ideologies.  Who better fosters G-ds vision.  Obama or Romney?  A Christian or a Morman? 

10/4/12 12:38 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Seeing as how Obama has continued the senseless wars and killing abroad, I'd say he holds to God's vision more closely.
10/4/12 6:27 PM
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Grakman
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I'm not sure your average American Protestant would consider either one of them a Christian - they consider Mormonism a false cult and Obama, well what can you say, many think he is a closet Muslim, supports gay marriage, gays in the military, etc.
10/5/12 7:24 AM
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CJJScout
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Grak speaks the truth
10/5/12 12:46 PM
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770mdm
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Edited: 10/05/12 12:48 PM
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A very contradictory world - closet Muslim who supports gay marriage & gays in the military.  Just saying...

Also, I belive G-d doesn't want continuous war.  I believe he wants us to reach agreement diplomatically rather than by force.

10/6/12 12:17 PM
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Joe Ray
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770mdm - 

A very contradictory world - closet Muslim who supports gay marriage & gays in the military.  Just saying...

Also, I belive G-d doesn't want continuous war.  I believe he wants us to reach agreement diplomatically rather than by force.


LOL at the closet Islamic fundamentalist who supports abortion and gay marriage.

Just LOL.

10/7/12 8:43 PM
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Grakman
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Joe Ray - 
770mdm - 

A very contradictory world - closet Muslim who supports gay marriage & gays in the military.  Just saying...

Also, I belive G-d doesn't want continuous war.  I believe he wants us to reach agreement diplomatically rather than by force.


LOL at the closet Islamic fundamentalist who supports abortion and gay marriage.

Just LOL.


Who said fundamentalist?
10/8/12 1:34 PM
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Joe Ray
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Who cares?

Show me the Islamic country and I will likely show you a country that outlaws abortion and offers the death penalty for homosexuality.

Islam, whether moderate or fundamentalist, is very socially conservative.

Believing that someone is a closet Muslim yet also the embodiment of "unChristian" ideas such as abortion and allowing gay people to marry is classic Orwellian doublethink.


10/8/12 2:27 PM
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YoungGunABKJ
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i am a non denominational christian and believe taking church and religion out of it, to me its about personal relationship with the Lord. I can not judge either man, i do not know his heart, but what i do know is that on the surface they seem not to walk with christ.

so its really voting for lesser of 2 evils.

and with that i will be voting for romney
10/8/12 5:48 PM
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Caleb
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I think Obama claims to be a christian but clearly is not. The church he went to for 20+ years was a racist church,  him being ok with gay marriage and partial birth abortion doesn't line up with being a Christian either.  

I don't know enough about mormonisim to full comment on it. In my limited understanding of their religion they believe Christ is their lord and savior, they just don't believe in the trinity and appear to have some other wacked out views. So does that mean they are not truly saved? In my opinion right this second, no. They are just mixed up in their beliefs but at the end of the day they do believe Jesus is their savior. 

With that said, for some reason I don't get the warm and fuzzy with Romney.I just don't trust him. He really impressed me in the bebate though. 

 

 

 

 

 

10/8/12 7:58 PM
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CJJScout
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Edited: 10/09/12 5:20 PM
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Uh yeah, a lot more reasons why mormons are not christians. Working your way to your own planet and stuff like that doesn't jive with the gospel. That is just one reason, plenty more.

*edited because I screwed up*
10/9/12 1:51 AM
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Grakman
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Edited: 10/09/12 1:56 AM
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First you change what I said and add 'fundamentalist,' then further modify it to say 'Muslim country', when I never made a statement about fundamentalist Muslims or Muslim nations in my comment. You're jousting with a straw man. Regardless, maybe you need to get out more Joe Ray. Or at least Google.

Progressive Muslims Launch Gay Friendly Mosques
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/progressive-muslims-launch-gay-friendly-women-led-mosques_n_1368460.html

Imam Blesses Union of Gay Couple in France
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/04/08/206218.html

First Gay Marriage in Muslim Majority Malaysia
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/08/07/230894.html
"Most gay Malaysians live free from direct harassment by authorities, and a law that prescribes 20-year prison sentences for sodomy, even consensual, is rarely enforced."

They're even making movies about being gay Muslims. This movie documents the lives of gay men living in Morocco, which last I heard, was a Muslim country.
http://iamgayandmuslim.com/

Here you have an Imam making the argument that the Qu'ran does not prohibit gay marriage:
http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/28/gay-and-muslim-%E2%80%94-is-that-even-possible-one-imam-says-%E2%80%98yes%E2%80%99/

Say hello to Mr. Orwell for me.
10/9/12 2:07 PM
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Joe Ray
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Edited: 10/09/12 4:12 PM
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You seem to think a few instances of Muslims not stoning gays to death means that Islam as a religion is somehow friendly to gays?

It isn't and my above comment above still stands, good luck preaching equality and respect for gays in the average Muslim country.

Christians and Christian countries have shown themselves to be far more tolerant and respectful of gays than Muslims ever have. After all, America, UK, Europe and other countries where Christianity is dominant are the countries where gay "rights" and such have advanced furthest.

Anyway, I'll reclarify my original point.

Support for gay marriage and abortion is strongest amongst secular atheists and is most opposed by the religious, including Christians but most especially Muslims.

You appear to be accusing Obama of being guilty of holding secular atheist beliefs yet of also being a "closet Muslim" - hence my Orwellian comment.

He is either one or the other. You can't accuse the man of being an atheist on one hand and then a religious Muslim on the other.


10/10/12 12:08 AM
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RoidsGracie
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Obama is (or at least was)a member of the United Church of Christ - which is one of the most liberal Christian denominations out of all the mainline Protestant sects which are already more towards the more liberal sides of things when it comes to religion. The UCC has supports gay marriage and also has gay ministers so his views are in line with his sect.
10/10/12 8:46 AM
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770mdm
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I see politics becoming it's own animal in the sense a candidate can personally be against, say, Abortion, and voice that personal belief but also uphold Roe vs. Wade because the majority of people in this country are for it.  Since candidates represent us I find it interesting that candidates are developing the ability to have their personal beliefs but then also uphold alternate stances controdictory to those personal beliefs. 

PLUCKED FROM MITT ROMNEY'S STANCE ON ABORTION FROM WIKIPEDIA:  In a 1994 debate with Senator Ted Kennedy, Romney said: "One of the great things about our nation ... is that we're each entitled to have strong personal beliefs, and we encourage other people to do the same. But as a nation, we recognize the right of all people to believe as they want and not to impose our beliefs on other people. I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. I have since the time that my mom took that position when she ran in 1970 as a U.S. Senate candidate. I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years, that we should sustain and support it, and I sustain and support that law, and the right of a woman to make that choice, and my personal beliefs, like the personal beliefs of other people, should not be brought into a political campaign."

In 2011, Romney declined to sign a pro-life pledge sponsored by the Susan B. Anthony List to support legislation to end all taxpayer funding of abortion and to sign a law to "protect unborn children who are capable of feeling pain from abortion." The pledge also commits signers to nominate judges and appoint executive branch officials who are pro-life. Romney's spokeswoman said the pledge could have "unforeseen consequences" and that Romney could not "in good conscience sign it." Romney did not hesitate to explain his stance: "It is one thing to end federal funding for an organization like Planned Parenthood; it is entirely another to end all federal funding for thousands of hospitals across America," he wrote. "That is precisely what the pledge would demand and require of a president who signed it."

The questions now becomes Do you vote for the Candidate or the personal beliefs he/she holds - if they're different?

10/10/12 9:38 AM
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Caleb
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770mdm - 

I see politics becoming it's own animal in the sense a candidate can personally be against, say, Abortion, and voice that personal belief but also uphold Roe vs. Wade because the majority of people in this country are for it.  Since candidates represent us I find it interesting that candidates are developing the ability to have their personal beliefs but then also uphold alternate stances controdictory to those personal beliefs. 

PLUCKED FROM MITT ROMNEY'S STANCE ON ABORTION FROM WIKIPEDIA:  In a 1994 debate with Senator Ted Kennedy, Romney said: "One of the great things about our nation ... is that we're each entitled to have strong personal beliefs, and we encourage other people to do the same. But as a nation, we recognize the right of all people to believe as they want and not to impose our beliefs on other people. I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. I have since the time that my mom took that position when she ran in 1970 as a U.S. Senate candidate. I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years, that we should sustain and support it, and I sustain and support that law, and the right of a woman to make that choice, and my personal beliefs, like the personal beliefs of other people, should not be brought into a political campaign."

In 2011, Romney declined to sign a pro-life pledge sponsored by the Susan B. Anthony List to support legislation to end all taxpayer funding of abortion and to sign a law to "protect unborn children who are capable of feeling pain from abortion." The pledge also commits signers to nominate judges and appoint executive branch officials who are pro-life. Romney's spokeswoman said the pledge could have "unforeseen consequences" and that Romney could not "in good conscience sign it." Romney did not hesitate to explain his stance: "It is one thing to end federal funding for an organization like Planned Parenthood; it is entirely another to end all federal funding for thousands of hospitals across America," he wrote. "That is precisely what the pledge would demand and require of a president who signed it."

The questions now becomes Do you vote for the Candidate or the personal beliefs he/she holds - if they're different?


Well, you are not forced to vote for either candidate from a scriptural standpoint. I don't believe it tells us anywhere in the bible we have to vote or should vote etc. So technically, you don't have to vote. For me I could go in there and write in Santorums name and have a clean conscience. Basically saying I'm not going to be forced to decide between two candidates when there are others out there who are better. Sure, I realize there is no way a write in or 3rd party will win this election, but if enough people get fed up we could possibly get better candidates in the future. 

I'm honestly in a weird position. There is no way on earth I can vote for Obama but I don't trust Romney either. With that said, he really impressed me in the debate and knew his stuff. Do I trust his plans will work or that he will even fully try to implement them? Not at all. I guess time will tell, perhaps as the debates go on I will get a better feel for him and what to do. 

I think each person has to pray about it and do what God leads them to do. Not get hung up on what your friends think, or your flesh thinks, or the media. 

 

 

10/10/12 10:30 AM
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CJJScout
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I like that Caleb, but I myself am not so idealistic. I'm a little more pragmatic and will vote for the lesser of the two evils.
10/10/12 5:39 PM
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Grakman
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Joe Ray:

Where did I say that Islam is a religion friendly to gays?

I posted those links to point out that it is possible for a person to be both Muslim and support gay rights, which is what I said about Obama. Do you still dispute that this is possible? Or do you want to shift the discussion to Islamic doctrine and homosexuality? Or perhaps you would prefer a discussion about the laws and societal mores of predominately Muslim nations and their views on homosexuality. Either would be fine, but neither one has anything to do with whether or not an individual or group of persons can be Muslim and pro-gray, whether Obama could be Muslim and pro-gay (or gay himself for that matter,) or the main point of my post which is that people can believe he is Muslim and still support gay rights. From what country do you think acceptance of homosexuality by Muslims will come about anyway?

Do you want to talk about Islam and homosexuality or do you want to talk about what people think about Barack Obama? There are people out there who believe Obama is a Muslim, and will not support him for that reason. There are people out there who will not support Obama because he supports gay marriage. Some of these people will believe both, some will believe either. Do you dispute this?
10/11/12 3:20 AM
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Joe Ray
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"Where did I say that Islam is a religion friendly to gays? "

Good God, you just posted 4 links showing instances of that. I can only assume you mean to show that this is somehow normal.

"I posted those links to point out that it is possible for a person to be both Muslim and support gay rights, which is what I said about Obama. Do you still dispute that this is possible? "

If you read my above post a few days ago you would have seen that I said I agreed with you that it is indeed possible.

"Do you want to talk about Islam and homosexuality or do you want to talk about what people think about Barack Obama?"

I am talking about people who believe Obama is both an atheist because he supports gay marriage and abortion and at the same time believe he is a god-believing Muslim who follows the Koran.

I agree with you that there are people who believe this. And they are logically inconsistent in the most extreme way.




10/11/12 4:03 PM
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Grakman
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Joe Ray, I wish I had known this a few days ago, we could have saved some bandwidth. :D
10/11/12 5:06 PM
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zealot66
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I personally think that Romney flirted with pro choice when he was running for office in liberal massechusettes. Everything points in his life to him being generally pro life. It's pointless to put yourself out of office because of an archaic issue that the supreme court is NOT going to overturn anytime soon. Its a dead issue except in peoples personal life. Mitt's mom may have espoused pro abortion for political reasons. I believe him when he says he will defund planned parenthood and that he is generally pro life but why make amajor campaign issue out of it like this idiot in Missouri Todd Atkins who had the seat already with his name tag on it till he made stupid comments on it. 

Now he will  lose to an old hag that I've hated since 1993. Good job pro lifers. I'm so glad you stayed true to your beliefs while the country burns as long as you continue to fight against a law that wont be overturned in our lifetime. Just cut govt support from it and let the free market either kill it or force people to own up to it personally. 

Christians make the stupidest politicians. Mormonism? HA ! the guy doesn't even drink Coffee, DANGEROUS for the country. I hope I look that fresh in my 60's. DANGER DANGER mitt romney.........

10/12/12 6:33 PM
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Caleb
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One thing I don't understand is Ryan said last night that they believed life begins at conception and they are against abortion except in instances of rape and incest. So he obviously thinks its murder to get an abortion since life begins at conception. So is he ok with murder of the child as long as the mother was raped?

 

 

10/12/12 8:55 PM
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zealot66
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Its a standard answer to cater to the public. It is also hard to force a woman who was raped by her dad to bring forth a child likely to suffer some strange disease. These two instances are difficult for the woman. They are making legal loopholes, imo rather than their most personal beliefs. I believe Mitt Romney was likely always pro life but wavered for political reasons in MASS. People sell their souls to become politicians. 

 

I could give a wit about abortion though I think that most are sel centered decisions. Plenty of people willing to adopt babies.You fuck, get pregnant, there are consequences, dont punish a likely healthy baby for it. just some observations.

10/12/12 9:51 PM
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CJJScout
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I reckon you can never truly say what you would do until it happens, but even in the case of rape I'm pro-life. I know a man who's mama was raped and the abortion failed and he has had a long healthy life. That's the short version, but the long story is pretty cool.
10/30/12 10:52 PM
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micmac
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Obama's positions on abortion and gay marriage don't make him a Muslim. They make him an atheist.

Neither candidate appears to be a Christ following Christian in my opinion. Phone Post

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