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UnderGround Forums >> What makes wrestlers so tough?


11/24/12 2:06 PM
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ocdacc
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in Phone Post
11/24/12 3:37 PM
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Edited: 11/24/12 3:36 PM
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What I've noticed going against wretlers in submission/jiu-jitsu tournaments is that they never concede a position.  EVER.  

BJJ guys will often play the "if you want it I'll give it then take the move after" game.  Wrestlers seem to fight for their lives for even minor advantages.  

They don't believe in "replacing guard when you should have never lost it in the first place or even be on your back.  

They don't transition into submissions from scrambles well because that would mean the scramble is over, and the scramble is NEVER over until their in a dominant position.

Dominik Cruz wasn't the best high school wrestler but the wrestling mentality puts him in a mindset that he could face an Olympian and win.

This is the grind effect.

11/24/12 3:39 PM
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wiggum
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What I've noticed going against wretlers in submission/jiu-jitsu tournaments is that they never concede a position.  EVER.  

BJJ guys will often play the "if you want it I'll give it then take the move after" game.  Wrestlers seem to fight for their lives for even minor advantages.  

They don't believe in "replacing guard when you should have never lost it in the first place or even be on your back.  

They don't transition into submissions from scrambles well because that would mean the scramble is over, and the scramble is NEVER over until their in a dominant position.

Dominik Cruz wasn't the best high school wrestler but the wrestling mentality puts him in a mindset that he could face an Olympian and win.

This is the grind effect.


Great post.

For anyone who watches Jordan Burroughs wrestle, he personifies it. He simply refuses to be scored on.

Check out Fitch's relentlessness against Silva. And even Chael: in the 4th versus Anderson when he reversed the position and put AS on his back. That's the grind effect.
11/24/12 3:46 PM
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DiazWasRobbed
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Wrestlers are the most arrogant pieces of shit I've ever met.
Seriously, it's not that hard to lay on someone for 10 minutes.

The "grind" is what everyone athlete in any combat sports has to go through.

You're not special.
11/24/12 3:51 PM
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DiazWasRobbed
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What I've noticed going against wretlers in submission/jiu-jitsu tournaments is that they never concede a position.  EVER.  

BJJ guys will often play the "if you want it I'll give it then take the move after" game.  Wrestlers seem to fight for their lives for even minor advantages.  

They don't believe in "replacing guard when you should have never lost it in the first place or even be on your back.  

They don't transition into submissions from scrambles well because that would mean the scramble is over, and the scramble is NEVER over until their in a dominant position.

Dominik Cruz wasn't the best high school wrestler but the wrestling mentality puts him in a mindset that he could face an Olympian and win.

This is the grind effect.


Great post.

For anyone who watches Jordan Burroughs wrestle, he personifies it. He simply refuses to be scored on.

Check out Fitch's relentlessness against Silva. And even Chael: in the 4th versus Anderson when he reversed the position and put AS on his back. That's the grind effect.

"Fitch's relentlessness" Sorry, I don't think laying on somebody counts as "relentless".
11/24/12 3:54 PM
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caseharts
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DiazWasRobbed - Wrestlers are the most arrogant pieces of shit I've ever met.
Seriously, it's not that hard to lay on someone for 10 minutes.

The "grind" is what everyone athlete in any combat sports has to go through.

You're not special.
No they dont. You dont no what you're talking about. Phone Post
11/24/12 3:54 PM
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DiazWasRobbed
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Notice how people boo whenever someone try's to lay and pray?

That's how people view you guys. Arrogant and egotistical assholes that think they're special because the know how to relax on top of someone.

11/24/12 3:55 PM
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PrecisePrecision
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Has anyone here wrestled and done boxing? Which one is more difficult?

Nothing could have prepared me for my first week of boxing, literally dragged myself to the bathroom at the end of the first day to vomit. Went home and just lay on the sofa, didn't want to eat or do anything.
11/24/12 3:57 PM
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DiazWasRobbed
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PrecisePrecision - Has anyone here wrestled and done boxing? Which one is more difficult?

Nothing could have prepared me for my first week of boxing, literally dragged myself to the bathroom at the end of the first day to vomit. Went home and just lay on the sofa, didn't want to eat or do anything.

Boxing. Wrestling takes no skill.
11/24/12 3:58 PM
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caseharts
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DiazWasRobbed -
PrecisePrecision - Has anyone here wrestled and done boxing? Which one is more difficult?

Nothing could have prepared me for my first week of boxing, literally dragged myself to the bathroom at the end of the first day to vomit. Went home and just lay on the sofa, didn't want to eat or do anything.

Boxing. Wrestling takes no skill.
Lololololololol Phone Post
11/24/12 4:00 PM
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caseharts
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PrecisePrecision - Has anyone here wrestled and done boxing? Which one is more difficult?

Nothing could have prepared me for my first week of boxing, literally dragged myself to the bathroom at the end of the first day to vomit. Went home and just lay on the sofa, didn't want to eat or do anything.
Ive competed in both and theyre different. Wrestling is more grueling but boxingin the right gym you take more punishment. There are lots of variables but theres nothing like a top level d1 wrestling program. Phone Post
11/24/12 4:00 PM
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caseharts
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DiazWasRobbed - Notice how people boo whenever someone try's to lay and pray?

That's how people view you guys. Arrogant and egotistical assholes that think they're special because the know how to relax on top of someone.

You got your ass beat by a wrestler huh? Phone Post
11/24/12 4:05 PM
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caseharts
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And I did bjj years before I wrestled. I am pretty unbiased in this. But if you haven't stepped on the mats with a top level wrestler/ worked in a solid program you can't have an opinion. You have no idea what you're talking about. I was a bjj nerd for years but then I got to a college wrestling team. I went and competed all over with them. There is nothing like it. I'm
Not saying their better fighters and there are boring guys. But disrespecting the sport and implying it takes no skill means you are completely looney. LOOONEY. Or a troll. Phone Post
11/24/12 4:10 PM
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PrecisePrecision
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PrecisePrecision - Has anyone here wrestled and done boxing? Which one is more difficult?

Nothing could have prepared me for my first week of boxing, literally dragged myself to the bathroom at the end of the first day to vomit. Went home and just lay on the sofa, didn't want to eat or do anything.
Ive competed in both and theyre different. Wrestling is more grueling but boxingin the right gym you take more punishment. There are lots of variables but theres nothing like a top level d1 wrestling program. Phone Post

So Wrestling = More Mental, Boxing = More Physical?

My best friend wrestled in highschool (he dropped out of college), so we argue about this shit a lot.
11/24/12 4:20 PM
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caseharts
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PrecisePrecision - Has anyone here wrestled and done boxing? Which one is more difficult?

Nothing could have prepared me for my first week of boxing, literally dragged myself to the bathroom at the end of the first day to vomit. Went home and just lay on the sofa, didn't want to eat or do anything.
Ive competed in both and theyre different. Wrestling is more grueling but boxingin the right gym you take more punishment. There are lots of variables but theres nothing like a top level d1 wrestling program. Phone Post

So Wrestling = More Mental, Boxing = More Physical?

My best friend wrestled in highschool (he dropped out of college), so we argue about this shit a lot.
As far as physical and mental difficulty. The pain you feel after getting your ass beat by a mid level pro boxer is something special. The grueling part of wrestling is the preparation the practice the drills, the weight cutting. Both of them suck for cutting weight but you aren't cutting weight several times a month or even monthly in boxing. That adds a whole different level. The painful part of boxing is sparring/ competing. Drills sucks road work etc they all have this. But wrestling is a much faster pace. First thing I learned in wrestling that bjj and boxing doesn't have is the stalling. Some wrestlers try but it's hard to stall. The pace some of these guys set in its own right is difficult.

They are both amazingly difficult. But if you take a d1 wrestler with no boxing. And a top level pro boxer with no wrestling and you have them fight in an MMA fight. The wrestler beats him 9 out of 10 times. Phone Post
11/24/12 4:25 PM
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PrecisePrecision
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PrecisePrecision -
caseharts - 
PrecisePrecision - Has anyone here wrestled and done boxing? Which one is more difficult?

Nothing could have prepared me for my first week of boxing, literally dragged myself to the bathroom at the end of the first day to vomit. Went home and just lay on the sofa, didn't want to eat or do anything.
Ive competed in both and theyre different. Wrestling is more grueling but boxingin the right gym you take more punishment. There are lots of variables but theres nothing like a top level d1 wrestling program. Phone Post

So Wrestling = More Mental, Boxing = More Physical?

My best friend wrestled in highschool (he dropped out of college), so we argue about this shit a lot.
As far as physical and mental difficulty. The pain you feel after getting your ass beat by a mid level pro boxer is something special. The grueling part of wrestling is the preparation the practice the drills, the weight cutting. Both of them suck for cutting weight but you aren't cutting weight several times a month or even monthly in boxing. That adds a whole different level. The painful part of boxing is sparring/ competing. Drills sucks road work etc they all have this. But wrestling is a much faster pace. First thing I learned in wrestling that bjj and boxing doesn't have is the stalling. Some wrestlers try but it's hard to stall. The pace some of these guys set in its own right is difficult.

They are both amazingly difficult. But if you take a d1 wrestler with no boxing. And a top level pro boxer with no wrestling and you have them fight in an MMA fight. The wrestler beats him 9 out of 10 times. Phone Post

I've had a couple of friendly sparring sessions with that same friend and it seriously ends the same way about 75% of the time. I light him up, he gets a leg, I spend the next 10 minutes feeling helpless until he chokes me.

Thanks for the insight though.
11/24/12 4:38 PM
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caseharts
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PrecisePrecision -
caseharts - 
PrecisePrecision -
caseharts - 
PrecisePrecision - Has anyone here wrestled and done boxing? Which one is more difficult?

Nothing could have prepared me for my first week of boxing, literally dragged myself to the bathroom at the end of the first day to vomit. Went home and just lay on the sofa, didn't want to eat or do anything.
Ive competed in both and theyre different. Wrestling is more grueling but boxingin the right gym you take more punishment. There are lots of variables but theres nothing like a top level d1 wrestling program. Phone Post

So Wrestling = More Mental, Boxing = More Physical?

My best friend wrestled in highschool (he dropped out of college), so we argue about this shit a lot.
As far as physical and mental difficulty. The pain you feel after getting your ass beat by a mid level pro boxer is something special. The grueling part of wrestling is the preparation the practice the drills, the weight cutting. Both of them suck for cutting weight but you aren't cutting weight several times a month or even monthly in boxing. That adds a whole different level. The painful part of boxing is sparring/ competing. Drills sucks road work etc they all have this. But wrestling is a much faster pace. First thing I learned in wrestling that bjj and boxing doesn't have is the stalling. Some wrestlers try but it's hard to stall. The pace some of these guys set in its own right is difficult.

They are both amazingly difficult. But if you take a d1 wrestler with no boxing. And a top level pro boxer with no wrestling and you have them fight in an MMA fight. The wrestler beats him 9 out of 10 times. Phone Post

I've had a couple of friendly sparring sessions with that same friend and it seriously ends the same way about 75% of the time. I light him up, he gets a leg, I spend the next 10 minutes feeling helpless until he chokes me.

Thanks for the insight though.
There are exceptions totally. There's an ibo boxing champion from Armenia I believe he's like 125 lber. He's also a national freestyle wrestling champ. That's a bad FUVKING dude Phone Post
11/24/12 4:44 PM
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caseharts
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Also let me clarify. There's more stalling in boxing and bjj not wrestling. You stall in wrestling and you lose a scramble. I get really upset when guys hug me in boxing matches. I wanna trip them. It's a weak strategy. I mean wrestlers sometimes sit on people in MMA. And some bjj guys hold you in guard.. But I mean non wrestlers sit on people in MMA too. Anthony Pettis vs Jeremy Stephens. Go watch that. Phone Post
11/24/12 4:52 PM
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PrecisePrecision
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Caseharts. I've upvoted you for being so awesome in this thread.
11/24/12 5:28 PM
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caseharts
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PrecisePrecision - Caseharts. I've upvoted you for being so awesome in this thread.
Thank you sir. I just like to clarify some things. I love all combat sports. They're all good and unique in their own way. The usefulness of the skill is how the skills are implemented. The thing with wrestlers is that mental game is a passive ability that always sticks with them. Its evident in a lot of guys. Fitch, kos, hendricks, volkmann, henderson(both), couture, faber, cruz, edgar, weidman, etcccc Phone Post
11/24/12 6:16 PM
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judom
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Edited: 11/24/12 6:27 PM
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wiggum,

Interesting posts really. Just to clarify something:

- I think USA wrestlers cut more weight than Judo guys anywhere. That is for sure.

- But wrestlers abroad don't cut as much weight as USA wrestlers. USA wrestlers are famous for cutting a lot of weight.

- Most Russian wrestlers don't cut a lot: in fact, coaches encourage them to almost walk at the weight they wrestle.

- The grind, as people call it, is clearly very high in USA wrestling. Now, whether that is good, I don't know.

Consider for a second: USA wrestling vs. Russian wrestling. These are 2 completely different schools of wrestling, both very successful.

In Russian wrestling:

- the practices are similar to what they would say about Japanese Judo. They are quite long, and there is a lot of wrestling, and not so much conditioning training. They are just long with continuous wrestling but not at 100%, even the sparring is not.

- there is no so much of cutting weight and even the tournaments are taken more as 'preparation for bigger events' than to win at all costs. People tend to pace themselves and avoid the grind as one may say.

- many Russian wrestlers have longer shelf lives than USA wrestlers, there is just less wear and tear on the body.

- at the same time, the Grind mentality as you call it, helps USA wrestlers in MMA, more so than the approach used by the Russians.

- I would say the USA wrestling is closer to the European Judo more so than it is close to Russian wrestling. In EU Judo, people also cut weight (but less than USA wrestling), there are lots and many tournaments all the time, etc.

- As far as Jordan Burroughs, he is an amazing wrestler, one of a kind and exemplifies USA- wrestling well. But he also gets scored upon and technically, he is not on the level of say Saitiev, especially his defensive wrestling. That said, Burroughs would do way better in MMA than Saitiev would.

- of course, these are all generalizations. If we take the Oklahoma State type programs, under John Smith, they tend to have more Russian approach as opposed to Iowa say.

- same thing goes for Russians: someone like Kudukhov's or Gadisov's style is very aggressive and closer to the USA style  than the typical Russian style. Its interesting to hear that Kudukhov's favorite wrestler is Tom Brands.

- as a side point, I have trained with NCAA D-1 folkstyle wrestlers while I was in the USA.  I can only say good things about them. I was impressed by their mat control skills, often lacking in international wrestling. At the same time, I would say their clinch skills were not great and  I can see how they get in trouble with Russians.

- ideally, you would want the 2 systems merged somehow: USA/Russia. Probably that best mix I've seen is Oklahoma State, but its still not there yet. In particular, I am a fan of Coleman Scott's wrestling style. Earlier, I was a fan of Lincoln McIlvary's wrestling style (from Iowa).

And overall, I agree: wrestling is a super tough sport. I have to say its difficult for me to differentiate EU Judo from wrestling, because Judo, the way it is practiced and referred to say in Russia / former USSR is "judo wrestling". And the way it is trained is just like wrestling -- its a mentality that is far different than Japan. Many of the top judo players now come from powerful wrestling regions, even their technique is formed that way. So its hard to separate the two too much.

11/24/12 6:37 PM
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wiggum
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wiggum,

Interesting posts really. Just to clarify something:

- I think USA wrestlers cut more weight than Judo guys anywhere. That is for sure.

- But wrestlers abroad don't cut as much weight as USA wrestlers. USA wrestlers are famous for cutting a lot of weight.

- Most Russian wrestlers don't cut a lot: in fact, coaches encourage them to almost walk at the weight they wrestle.

- The grind, as people call it, is clearly very high in USA wrestling. Now, whether that is good, I don't know.

Consider for a second: USA wrestling vs. Russian wrestling. These are 2 completely different schools of wrestling, both very successful.

In Russian wrestling:

- the practices are similar to what they would say about Japanese Judo. They are quite long, and there is a lot of wrestling, and not so much conditioning training. They are just long with continuous wrestling but not at 100%, even the sparring is not.

- there is no so much of cutting weight and even the tournaments are taken more as 'preparation for bigger events' than to win at all costs. People tend to pace themselves and avoid the grind as one may say.

- many Russian wrestlers have longer shelf lives than USA wrestlers, there is just less wear and tear on the body.

- at the same time, the Grind mentality as you call it, helps USA wrestlers in MMA, more so than the approach used by the Russians.

- I would say the USA wrestling is closer to the European Judo more so than it is close to Russian wrestling. In EU Judo, people also cut weight (but less than USA wrestling), there are lots and many tournaments all the time, etc.

- As far as Jordan Burroughs, he is an amazing wrestler, one of a kind and exemplifies USA- wrestling well. But he also gets scored upon and technically, he is not on the level of say Saitiev, especially his defensive wrestling. That said, Burroughs would do way better in MMA than Saitiev would.

- of course, these are all generalizations. If we take the Oklahoma State type programs, under John Smith, they tend to have more Russian approach as opposed to Iowa say.

- same thing goes for Russians: someone like Kudukhov's or Gadisov's style is very aggressive and closer to the USA style  than the typical Russian style. Its interesting to hear that Kudukhov's favorite wrestler is Tom Brands.

- as a side point, I have trained with NCAA D-1 folkstyle wrestlers while I was in the USA.  I can only say good things about them. I was impressed by their mat control skills, often lacking in international wrestling. At the same time, I would say their clinch skills were not great and  I can see how they get in trouble with Russians.

- ideally, you would want the 2 systems merged somehow: USA/Russia. Probably that best mix I've seen is Oklahoma State, but its still not there yet. In particular, I am a fan of Coleman Scott's wrestling style. Earlier, I was a fan of Lincoln McIlvary's wrestling style (from Iowa).

And overall, I agree: wrestling is a super tough sport. I have to say its difficult for me to differentiate EU Judo from wrestling, because Judo, the way it is practiced and referred to say in Russia / former USSR is "judo wrestling". And the way it is trained is just like wrestling -- its a mentality that is far different than Japan. Many of the top judo players now come from powerful wrestling regions, even their technique is formed that way. So its hard to separate the two too much.


Voted up, brother.

I'll have a more substantial response when I have more time. For now, I'll add that Mark Cody blends the systems really nicely. Cody was the coach at American, won coach of the year, and is now the head coach at Oklahoma. He was Smith's head assistant and influenced Smith as much as Smith influenced him.
11/24/12 6:50 PM
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Sleazy Martinez
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GriffinQ -  If you've ever wrestled... You'd know. It's the grind. You're performing in a sport that requires you to go full blast for minutes at a time without rest, without being allowed to take a step back, and against an opponent just as mean and strong as you who is trying to break your spirit and your body.
You're constantly dehydrated and under fed yet you have practice six days a week in a sport that won't get you a lot of public accolades. You have to be both strong and explosive, but you must also be durable and have cardio for days. You put your body through hell in preparation for every match, but there's no genuine downtime. If you want to be the best, or even be "good," you have to work every single day. Wrestling is a sport where there are no shortcuts... Even if you're the most athletic guy on the mat, you can still be broken by a mean sonova bitch who knows how to outwork you. Phone Post

As much as i might under-appreciate wrestling when it comes to an MMA fight (at times), a post like this leaves me with nothing but respect for the people who are willing to put themselves through all the things you mentioned for more or less the love of the sport and not much else.
11/24/12 7:10 PM
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DreamerMMA
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Wrestling was easily the hardest thing I've ever done when it comes to sports training.

 

I was also lucky that right before the army I had the good fortune to train martial arts with a guy who had a black belt in TKD, Karate and Judo.  The guy made us workout damn near as hard as the wrestling team and after about a year with him I went off to boot camp and had no problem with the physical aspects.

 

I wasn't the biggest or strongest guy there, hell, I was 18 years old and 166 pounds but I had major heart and no quit in me.  It was that wrestling mentality of never conceding an inch, of pushing yourself until you collapsed.

Boot camp had fucking nothing for me after the hell wrestling and the other combat arts put me through.

11/24/12 7:34 PM
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UGCTT Private First Class America
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Great thread guys, thanks! Phone Post

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