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Hawai'i Underground >> 10 more min, Ryron would've won...


10/15/12 1:52 AM
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FCTV808
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imho.

i think he freaked galvao out. you could see it in galvao's playing. his after words gave away his frustration and self doubt.

game over.
10/15/12 3:53 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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Yeah, you could see Galvao was thrown off. It was like he was fighting an empty gi jacket that he just couldn't bend to his will......I'm not a philosophical type, but that was pretty "Ju" seeming to me.

That was impressive
10/15/12 4:03 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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Galvao seemed to more intense with a more rigid mindset or gameplan. Ryron on the other hand seemed mentally flexible and willing to go w/ the flow to see where he could go and what he could do. Is stupid to think Ryron was stalling, he was being efficient in not wasting energy forcing things, whereas Galvao was working hard to pin and control to setup his attacks.......not that Ryron ever let him get anywhere.

Some will say that is an example of defensiveness and that is a negative......but conceptually isn't that the idea of "Ju" and sense they was no reason to try to meet force head-on or force his way out of Galvao's control (20min match), instead he worked to counter when space and timing presented itself and he did so easily IMHO. Ryron ACTIVELY worked from a base of defense, never seemed to be defensively stalling and holding/hugging and covering up........his guard wasn't even closed IIRC.

Look at the standup periods, Ryron coming forward and looking to grip, Galvao backing up and would break grip and disengage when it seemed he couldn't get what he wanted.......smart and shows his being more strategic in a gameplan sense, but illustrates the flexibility of Ryron as I mentioned with the "go w/ the flow" attitude. At ~7min left, Galvao seems tired and frustration is taking it toll on him. At 4:25 left Ryron stands back up and basically walks right up to Galvao even more blatently and Galvao is the one still backing up and disengaging from grips......~3min left look at the stand up on Galvao's pass failure, Ryron stands up with only his cross-collar grip and no effort by Galvao to stop him. Not much else happens, Ryron seems to continue moving forward, looking for a foot and seeking to engage.
10/15/12 4:47 PM
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Moke
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Empty jacket is a great term for what happened. Guys like Galvao are so used to competing against guys who are so geared up (in more ways than one) for very physically powerful competition, that he was having a hard time computing Ryron's approach. Yet at the same time, it was Ryron stalking and walking down Galvao from the feet right from the get go.

Galvao said that he competes to finish, so I don't understand why he started blaming the rules. No one was stopping him from submitting Ryron...except for Ryron.

As Galvao tired out and got frustrated, Ryron started to turn it on. In another ten minutes I do believe he would have caught Galvao...a guy who beats beasts like Toquinho!

Ryron was successful in proving what Helio had been preaching all along. That firstly, surviving is winning, and given enough time (survival), the right technique and strategy will not only allow you to walk away, but finish your opponent.

As far as people saying Ryron was being too defensive, I disagree. In fact he could have been WAY more defensive. He merely didn't allow himself to be put in danger. Now on the other hand you have guys like Glover saying, "Oh I like to let people get submissions and work my way out..." ...I think that's a great practice strategy, but from a self defense or competition point of view, that's ridiculous imo. And look where it got him.
10/15/12 5:17 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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EXACTLRyron putting the "Ju" back in JIUJITSU!
LOL!
10/15/12 6:01 PM
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Moke
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Although Ryron seems so playful and "nice", I get the vibe from him that he can also get very serious or pissed off. And that when that happens, he can REALLY take it to you.
10/15/12 7:09 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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Moke - Although Ryron seems so playful and "nice", I get the vibe from him that he can also get very serious or pissed off. And that when that happens, he can REALLY take it to you.

LOL! Yes....I can imagine there must have been a few instances of someone needing a crushing by Ryron over the years.
10/15/12 7:40 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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Moke - Empty jacket is a great term for what happened. Guys like Galvao are so used to competing against guys who are so geared up (in more ways than one) for very physically powerful competition, that he was having a hard time computing Ryron's approach. Yet at the same time, it was Ryron stalking and walking down Galvao from the feet right from the get go.

Galvao said that he competes to finish, so I don't understand why he started blaming the rules. No one was stopping him from submitting Ryron...except for Ryron.

As Galvao tired out and got frustrated, Ryron started to turn it on. In another ten minutes I do believe he would have caught Galvao...a guy who beats beasts like Toquinho!

Ryron was successful in proving what Helio had been preaching all along. That firstly, surviving is winning, and given enough time (survival), the right technique and strategy will not only allow you to walk away, but finish your opponent.

As far as people saying Ryron was being too defensive, I disagree. In fact he could have been WAY more defensive. He merely didn't allow himself to be put in danger. Now on the other hand you have guys like Glover saying, "Oh I like to let people get submissions and work my way out..." ...I think that's a great practice strategy, but from a self defense or competition point of view, that's ridiculous imo. And look where it got him.

INDEED!

People misinterpret the point about "surviving".......IMHO jiujitsu rests upon the idea of not meeting force head-on and trying to bull your way through to obtain your goal......you either succeed or tire, over-commit yourself and fail.

So in that sense, looking at the problem presented.....a 20min grappling match facing a highly conditioned&experienced, world class competitor Ryron's strategy makes even more sense. Add to the fact that he espouses a philosophy of training for life and exploratory method of training, which he seems to want to showcase.

AND YES.....he never just laid there hugging with a "Lay&pray" attitude, as I put it previously, he "ACTIVELY worked from a base of defense." Defense is the foundation, which you develop from and can fall back to as situation dictates......and surely one could see how a 20min grappling match qualifies. If the situation dictates.....or the opportunity to attack presents itself.....BOOM! And isn't that what Ryron did?As for how this would play out from a SD PoV, it seems lost to many people.
10/16/12 1:39 AM
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falsecrack
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Yeah man, Ryron was just getting ready to show us some offense when the bell rang.





















pfffffffffffffffffff
10/16/12 1:43 AM
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Moke
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Either you can see it or you can't I guess.
10/16/12 2:13 AM
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falsecrack
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Yes, if you could see this: "Ryron was successful in proving what Helio had been preaching all along. That firstly, surviving is winning, and given enough time (survival), the right technique and strategy will not only allow you to walk away, but finish your opponent"

then you're right, I didn't see how Ryron was able to finish his opponent after surviving. Because he didn't.
10/16/12 2:39 AM
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Moke
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I said, "given enough time". And within context of this conversation, enough time would be 30 minutes, thus the extra 10 minutes.
10/16/12 3:58 AM
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Moke
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Edited: 10/16/12 3:59 AM
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And believe me I know where the tournament attitude is coming from too. It's just that I believe the Gracie's have always been trying to make a proving ground as close to reality as possible. Think about the original UFC with no rounds, no gloves, no weight classes, no rules (aside from biting and eye gouging) and no time limits.

Now once things get popular and commercial, then commercial realities take over like needing to conclude festivities by a predetermined predictable time.

But when matches are as short as ten minutes, it doesn't allow the match to fully mature, and you end up with this bastardized version of strategy, and in turn it starts to (de)evolve the actual art in that direction.

I'm glad they are turning things back around to preserve the whole point of it all.

They are doing a difficult thing of trying to balance art and reality with sport. It's nearly impossible, but I'd rather side on reality art preservation...and I get the feeling next time they will actually try to extend matches to 30 minutes.

10/16/12 4:24 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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KyokushinCatch - given enough time, the Russians could have won the Russo-Japanese war

I understand what my BJJ friends are saying, but the goal of any sporting competition is to win within the rules and time limits. thus, if necessary, one must alter their strategy and fighting philosophy adequately to achieve said goal

as for me, I'd rather win ugly than lose pretty

INDEED and I made that point previously here:

"...no reason to try to meet force head-on or force his way out of Galvao's control (20min match), instead he worked to counter when space and timing presented itself and he did so easily IMHO. Ryron ACTIVELY worked from a base of defense, never seemed to be defensively stalling and holding/hugging and covering up........his guard wasn't even closed IIRC."

and here:

"So in that sense, looking at the problem presented.....a 20min grappling match facing a highly conditioned&experienced, world class competitor Ryron's strategy makes even more sense. Add to the fact that he espouses a philosophy of training for life and exploratory method of training, which he seems to want to showcase.

AND YES.....he never just laid there hugging with a "Lay&pray" attitude, as I put it previously, he "ACTIVELY worked from a base of defense." Defense is the foundation, which you develop from and can fall back to as situation dictates......and surely one could see how a 20min grappling match qualifies. If the situation dictates.....or the opportunity to attack presents itself.....BOOM! And isn't that what Ryron did?As for how this would play out from a SD PoV, it seems lost to many people."

So IMHO, faced with an opponent of Galvao's caliber, Ryron's "strategy and fighting philosophy" made sense.....at least to me. Now if Roger was the one facing Galvao yesterday, then I would have expected a different "strategy and fighting philosophy" because I see Roger as in the same league with his competition experience.

JMHO, I'm not exactly up on much that goes on in the jiujitsu competition scene, but Ryron hasn't really competed much and not at Galvao's level and comes across as more the jiujitsu "teacher" than a fighter.
10/16/12 4:46 AM
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FCTV808
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1 min left, ryron attempts his granddad's footlock, TWICE. :)
10/16/12 4:48 AM
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FCTV808
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and i was such a huge fan of galvao until his statements a the end of the fight. oh man. :(
10/16/12 6:20 AM
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Moke
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It should be noted too that the Torrance boys didn't just come up with the idea and simply hire guys to participate. They entered Ryron, who stepped off the mat from teaching and doing seminars, and matched him with one of the most dangerous current tournament champions walking the earth right now.

Also, seeing how relaxed he was yet immovable in the standup, I wonder how much time he's spent at uncle Rickson's if any...
10/16/12 6:48 AM
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MOB U2
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I am in serious awe that there is an actual martial arts discussion here.

Nice to see again, too bad I have my energies involved in other projects at the moment.

For this empty jacket analogy, read "Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, chess champion and BJJ'er under Marcelo Garcia. Peeps say he's black belt, I am not sure.

Anyway, did not want to hijack; carry on, will check-in from time to time.
10/16/12 2:25 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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MOB U2 - I am in serious awe that there is an actual martial arts discussion here.

Nice to see again, too bad I have my energies involved in other projects at the moment.

For this empty jacket analogy, read "Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, chess champion and BJJ'er under Marcelo Garcia. Peeps say he's black belt, I am not sure.

Anyway, did not want to hijack; carry on, will check-in from time to time.

BAH......Rather we get back to guns, knives and Dec.2012
10/16/12 4:27 PM
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FCTV808
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yeah, what were we thinking?
10/16/12 11:38 PM
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meatrokket
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Roid monster's angry face compared to Ryrons smugness and his plugging of Helios philosophy was making me lol. Phone Post
10/17/12 4:11 AM
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FCTV808
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LOL!
10/17/12 4:37 AM
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Moke
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10/17/12 4:44 AM
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FCTV808
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from the 3:50 point, i've seen this directly in my workplace.

sales reps that were viewed as not confident and mediocre turned into management material once they started bjj.

true story.
10/17/12 4:48 AM
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Moke
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Edited: 10/17/12 4:49 AM
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People don't realize how much of their actions thoughts personality and philosophy is shaped by fear, both directly and indirectly.

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