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Hawai'i Underground >> 10 more min, Ryron would've won...


10/17/12 2:52 PM
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tjmitch
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I get the whole defense first thing, but after a while once you have felt the others guys offense and he wasnt able to sub you, start attacking.
10/19/12 2:58 AM
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Lionheart80
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http://www.openmatradio.com/2012/10/18/erins-take-ryron-gracie-vs-andre-galvao/

Cool audio about the match Phone Post
10/19/12 4:59 AM
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TheAlchemist
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tjmitch - I get the whole defense first thing, but after a while once you have felt the others guys offense and he wasnt able to sub you, start attacking.

Agreed.

10/19/12 6:33 AM
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FCTV808
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last few minutes of the fight, that is exactly what ryron was doing. 10 more minutes and one of those footlocks would've landed. maybe
10/19/12 6:41 AM
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TheAlchemist
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did he really need to wait 27 or so minutes before he went on the offensive?

10/19/12 6:52 AM
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Moke
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Edited: 10/19/12 6:53 AM
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TheAlchemist - 

did he really need to wait 27 or so minutes before he went on the offensive?


I think he had the skills to risk it. However, Ryron is a skinny vegetarian beanpole. I think he needed to wait until Galvao burned a good deal of his energy and burned his grips first for a higher success rate.

It's a common MMA strategy too. BJ used to say he doesn't like to go for a sub right away and likes to soften the guy up physically and mentally first. That makes his finish rate much higher.

 

I'm sure Ryron was hoping Galvao would gas at the 12 minute mark or so giving himself more time to work, but really, 20 minutes isn't very long.

10/19/12 6:55 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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TheAlchemist - 

did he really need to wait 27 or so minutes before he went on the offensive?


27mins??

Considering who he was faced with.....would an strategy of meeting Galvao head-on in an offensive war led to anything other than a likely loss?

Could he have mounted an effective offense against a person of Galvao's level? Is he in the same league of experience as his other family memebers like Roger or Kron?
10/19/12 2:16 PM
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KUIndustries
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This is probably going to get me flamed like no other but I don't get the no time limit roll till tap philosophy.

Just wait for the other guy to get tired and defend isn't great self defense. I have never heard any one tell a rape victim, just wait it out till there tired and you'll be ok.

By Helio's argument that you tire the person out and submit him them when they can no longer defend Kimura had better jiu jitsu?
10/19/12 2:24 PM
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KUIndustries
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PS Galvao is a hell of a guy, that crap at the end was garbage. I think he was part frustrated and part embarrassed but either way :(
10/19/12 2:28 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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KUIndustries - This is probably going to get me flamed like no other but I don't get the no time limit roll till tap philosophy.

Just wait for the other guy to get tired and defend isn't great self defense. I have never heard any one tell a rape victim, just wait it out till there tired and you'll be ok.

By Helio's argument that you tire the person out and submit him them when they can no longer defend Kimura had better jiu jitsu?

I wrote this on another thread....

"What Ryron did in the Galvao match IS NOT SD.

The concept of "survival" encompassing conserving energy, attacking when oppotunity presents and not sustaining damage are applicable in a grappling match and SD.....but how they are applied depends upon environment, circumstances, etc. Sometimes aggression is required, sometimes a more patient approach."
10/19/12 2:53 PM
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KUIndustries
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Agreed, if Ryron, prevented the guard passes or grinded him out from side control, mount or any dominant position till he got tired, regardless if he submitted him or not, than said that was my strategy that is self defense, true Gracie Jiu Jitsu I don't think any one would argue.

If your idea is to let some one rape you till their tired and say that's self defense I'd respectfully disagree.

Anyway great match, Ryron surprised everyone, Galvao needed to man up and say good match next time
10/19/12 3:52 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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KUIndustries - Agreed, if Ryron, prevented the guard passes or grinded him out from side control, mount or any dominant position till he got tired, regardless if he submitted him or not, than said that was my strategy that is self defense, true Gracie Jiu Jitsu I don't think any one would argue.

If your idea is to let some one rape you till their tired and say that's self defense I'd respectfully disagree.

Anyway great match, Ryron surprised everyone, Galvao needed to man up and say good match next time

"but how they are applied depends upon environment, circumstances, etc. Sometimes aggression is required, sometimes a more patient approach."

a grappo match against a worldclass champion for 20min where sub=win does not equate to life or death/maim/rape scenario. how he chose to expend enervy or fighting maximally to prevent pass or reverse a pin depe ds upon his own attributes, strategy and tactics.....for tbat enviro ment
10/19/12 5:12 PM
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Moke
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KUIndustries - This is probably going to get me flamed like no other but I don't get the no time limit roll till tap philosophy.

Just wait for the other guy to get tired and defend isn't great self defense. I have never heard any one tell a rape victim, just wait it out till there tired and you'll be ok.

By Helio's argument that you tire the person out and submit him them when they can no longer defend Kimura had better jiu jitsu?

I'm just talking in general here and not specific to this match or any rape or street fight, but...I think in general they mean when the other person is bigger or stronger or more skilled than you (or all of the above), then obviously you aren't just going to impose your will on them and walk away. So the first order of the day is survive. After that comes strategy to actually defeat them...and in Ryron's case, that means let the aggressive finisher work and get frustrated and then turn on your attack.
10/19/12 5:55 PM
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KUIndustries
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The survive strategy i cant argue, get home alive = always a good thing. In relation to jiu jitsu it enabled glover to pull off the w in there first match, this time around Caio wasn't biting and didn't overly attack. I think Galvao will play different in metamoris 2 although result may be the same who knows?
10/19/12 5:58 PM
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KUIndustries
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Sgt he passed it off as self defense jiu jitsu. If he said that was my strategy to defend till he was tired, than attack it would have been different. He stated that just surviving he won
10/19/12 6:08 PM
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tjmitch
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If Ryron got jumped in a dark parking garage and walked away relativley unscathed, then yes - a win for his defensive bjj. But he signed up for a sub only tourny - he should have tried to win.
10/19/12 6:09 PM
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KUIndustries
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Ps and than I got work to do so probably won't be back for awhile. How we survive isn't always defense.

Of example say moke, meat rocket, bjj tech and FC were going to mob me. First order of the night is survive, could mean try and run like hell or could mean pull out my glock.
10/19/12 6:11 PM
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KUIndustries
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Edited: 10/19/12 6:30 PM
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Ryron was better than I and most people thought. Metamoris 2!! Rematch hopefully
10/19/12 6:23 PM
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Moke
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tjmitch - If Ryron got jumped in a dark parking garage and walked away relativley unscathed, then yes - a win for his defensive bjj. But he signed up for a sub only tourny - he should have tried to win.

I do think his plan was to win. I think in his mind it works like this: Don't lose (don't get caught), and catch him when he tires out. This time it didn't work. But look at Kron's match. He fought and expended far more energy and he still took 17 minutes to get the sub. What if that armlock attempt failed? Likely it would have gone to a draw as well.

Skinny Ryron was faced with a bigger challenge imo, and played a different strategy. I believe he is content with the draw because of who he was facing (though I believe he wanted to get a sub too). He was demonstrating a philosophy. Everyone here knows that in the weeks leading up to the event, everyone here was saying Ryron was going to get raped and subbed. Well it didn't happen and I think now people are trying to rationalize.
10/19/12 6:31 PM
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Moke
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And I don't think the, "he was just playing defensive that's why Galvao couldn't finish him" argument works. What that tells me is that Ryron's skill are on par with Galvao's

For example: When I play FCTV, I can try not to lose, but he's STILL going to smash and submit me. So much so, that I don't even waste my time playing a safe defensive game. I actually play a more risky game hoping I'll get lucky. In the end he just finishes me that much faster.

What Ryron reminded me of is, yes, of course, defense and surviving comes first. Everything else comes second. For me personally, I am going to start applying this more. The longer you survive against someone dangerous, the more opportunity you'll have to actually defeat them. Such a simple concept that I forgot.
10/19/12 7:30 PM
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FCTV808
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SWING FOR THE FENCES MOKE!
10/19/12 7:34 PM
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Moke
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lol bastard
10/19/12 8:42 PM
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meatrokket
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KUIndustries - Ps and than I got work to do so probably won't be back for awhile. How we survive isn't always defense.

Of example say moke, meat rocket, bjj tech and FC were going to mob me. First order of the night is survive, could mean try and run like hell or could mean pull out my glock.
How do I get dragged into this stupid scenario? Phone Post
10/19/12 9:06 PM
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tjmitch
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Moke, have you tried grabbing his dick?
10/19/12 9:38 PM
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KUIndustries
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Lol I just picked people I know or will likely run into in the future.

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