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BJJGround Forum >> Not to nitpick but re: World Champion


10/20/12 12:04 AM
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Calibur1980
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How the hell are you going to claim to be best in the world when you're not even best in the room?

Absolute foolishness! How are you going to have a tournament with 5 gold medalists in one weight class!

Working hard to be the worlds best sandbagged doesn't make it any less silly.... Or demeaning. Phone Post
10/20/12 12:37 AM
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Baroquen Record
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I wouldn't call someone a world champion unless they won black belt adult division at the worlds

Technically a blue belt who wins at the worlds is a world champ but not to me. Phone Post
10/20/12 2:09 AM
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TheBulgarianAssassin
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Also guys who've won Mundials at blue belt are really brown belt level and training as long as brown belts but just haven't been promoted.
10/20/12 2:43 AM
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checkuroil
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There was a blue belt I saw at a tournament recently. I rolled with him four years earlier and he was a blue belt then. Phone Post
10/20/12 1:36 PM
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CompanyBlue
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Edited: 10/20/12 1:41 PM
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Hockey, basketball, and I'm sure soccer and other sports have World Championships for people who aren't anywhere close to being the best in the world. Junior world championships, 19 and under, 23 and under etc. these are world championships for people at a certain age group only. It's somewhat comparable right? There are other sports who do amateur worlds too.

I do agree with what y'all are saying though, but I know the difference like all of you do so I don't let it bug me these days. The ibjjf worlds are not really world championships either. There should be qualifying to enter or invitations based on performances in other events, not just entrance based on being able to write a check. The way it is now lowers the quality of competition but it's all about the money so of course it's going to be open to anybody. Anybody else agree with me on any of this? How come one guy can win 1 match total and be world champion in a divison, while another guy had to go through 5 matches? The whole process is profitable but pathetic considering its the worlds. So many say winning brasileiros is tougher than mundials.

I am thinking of promoting y a couple 70 year olds with no training to purple bet and having the, enter the worlds. Nobody else will be in their division so one will become a world champion without having ever trained and the other one will be a world silver medalist.
10/20/12 7:42 PM
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JSho
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Even today pe De Pano was described in a news piece on the UG front page as "a six time world champion" but he has "only" 3 mundials black belt titles and one copa do mundo title at black belt.
 
Next time you hear someone described as a 57 time world champion, remember, these are the only 10 men to have won 4 or more black belt adult gold medals at the ibjjf mundials.
  • 10 Time Champion: Roger Gracie  (7 weight and 3 absolute)
  • 6 Time Champion: Xande Ribiero (4 weight & 2 absolute).
  • 5 Time Champion: Saulo Ribeiro, Marcelo Garcia, Bruno Malfacine and Robson Moura
  • 4 Time Champion: Royler Gracie, Fabio Gurgel, Roberto Magalhães (Roleta) & Rubens Charles (Cobrinha)
  • 3 Time Champions: Quite a lot of guys...
And for ADCC:
  • 5 time champion:
  • Mario Sperry (-99kg & Absolute 1998; Superfight 1999, 2000, 2011)
 
  • 4 time champion
  • Mark Kerr (+99kg 1999; +99kg & Absolute 2000; Superfight 2001)
  • Ricardo Arona (-99kg 2000; +99kg & Absolute 2001; Superfight 2003)
  • Marcelo Garcia (-77kg 2003, 2005, 2007, 2011)
 
  • 3 time champions
  • Royler Gracie (-66kg 1999, 2000, 2001)
  • Roger Gracie (-99kg & Absolute 2005; Superfight 2007)
  • Dean Lister (Absolute 2003; Superfight 2005, -99kg 2011)
  • Braulio Estima (-88kg & Absolute 2009, Superfight 2011)
 
10/20/12 7:45 PM
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JSho
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another bug bear on people claiming world championships, close outs... only one guys gets a gold. iirc all 4 guys who closed out 2002 leve at the mundials claim to be a champion because of it, but only Marcio Feitosa should be considered the champion.
10/20/12 7:48 PM
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vegard
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Good stuff, jsho
10/20/12 9:02 PM
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Kneeblock
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IMO the mundials is very B-league compared to ADCC which strives for true international comp making it a true World Championship.

 

10/20/12 9:14 PM
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Tubarao
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Just because tournaments name has "world" is not a good enough reason to call the winner of one of its divisions a world champion....

I have seen so many dinky tournaments that are named "Blah-blah Wolrd Championship".

There has to be consensus on the tourney and also the format in my opinion. Phone Post
10/20/12 9:19 PM
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Tubarao
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I think IBJJF Mudials Black Belt winner seems like a good choice though. Maybe, Abu Dahbi Pro winner too though. Phone Post
10/20/12 10:50 PM
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mrgoodarmbar
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Kneeblock - 

IMO the mundials is very B-league compared to ADCC which strives for true international comp making it a true World Championship.

 


what?!
10/20/12 11:05 PM
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JSho
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Kneeblock - 

IMO the mundials is very B-league compared to ADCC which strives for true international comp making it a true World Championship.

 


Yes i can see your point, semantically they tend to be genuinely "Worlds" championships.

I think where ADCC and World Pro Gi/NoGi have it better than the Mundials in that:
-They have a series of qualifiers (ADCC + WPG)
-The qualifiers generally attract high level talent from the region the qualifier i sheld in (ADCC + WPG)
-they pay prize money (ADCC + WPG)
-neither are being operated as a primarily profit generating mechanism (ADCC + WPG)
-You can get invited on merit (ADCC)
-You can still pay to enter if you want (WPG)
-Greater representation of major grappling nations (ADCC + WPG)
-Greater geographic medal distribution than Mundials (ADCC)

The mundials does have decent levels of japanese and american participation these days, with random players from some european countries (e.g. Trans) and australia (e.g. Mick Wilson) as well.
10/21/12 1:50 AM
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JSho
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None of them have a single black belt ibjjf Mundials title but...
-Rene took black belt gold at the last copa do Mundo in 2007
-vitor took black belt gold at the Copa do Mundo in 2003 (I think)
-Galvao closed out twice at rooster at the ibjjf Mundials 97 and 98 with NU teammates but Robson Moura and someone else, Marcelo Ferreira maybe, took gold in those years, no joint firsts at the Mundials...

so it's reasonable but not entirely accurate to call them world champs. Phone Post
10/21/12 2:55 AM
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TheBulgarianAssassin
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Tubarao -  Just because tournaments name has "world" is not a good enough reason to call the winner of one of its divisions a world champion....

I have seen so many dinky tournaments that are named "Blah-blah Wolrd Championship".

There has to be consensus on the tourney and also the format in my opinion. Phone Post

I agree. NAGA even calls one of their tournament "NAGA World Championships". IBJJF Mundials and ADCC are the only ones where you can call yourself world champion if you win.
10/21/12 3:47 AM
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CompanyBlue
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Thanks again Jsho!

BTW, I don't think winning an ADCC superfight should count as an ADCC championship the same way as the tournament wins count.

If so, we should start calling Kron, Caio and Lovato Jr. the reigning Metamoris Superfight Champs and tack it onto their credentials along with medals they've won at the ibjjf Pan, Muindial, Euro etc? They all defeated legit opponents, especially Kron giving up weight and still tapping the world champ, Lovato tapped a pan ibjjf champ and Caio tapped Glover.

All of those wins are way more impressive than Mario Sperry laying on top of Renzo Gracie and winning on points 5-0. Well, a ton of those ADCC superfights end on a non dominating points win so maybe the Metamoris wins are a bigger deal? Braulio 3-0 over Jacare, Jacare over Drysdale 3-0 and whatever the other ones might have been.
10/21/12 5:49 AM
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JSho
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Yeah I Tend to agree with yo but a title is a title, garcia's 4 division wins are more significant really than aronas or sperrys because of the superfights.
The superfights either tend to be pretty one sided (arona/Kerr, sperry/enson, lister/JJ) or tedious/not as good as they should have been (Jacare/drysdale, Braulio/ Jacare). Roger/einemo was ok. Renzo/sperry was awful, the legends superfights are a bad idea, thank god metamoris didn't do nelsinho/JJ. Phone Post
10/21/12 12:04 PM
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Kneeblock
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Thanks for expanding on my point JSho (so I didn't have to). I tend to think ADCC superfights don't count for anything though, particularly with the fractured lineage after Arona bowed out way back when. The Superfights don't make you a world champ of anything and imo, should be eliminated for the good of the competition.

I think they could have superfights of veterans and maybe celebrity well known grapplers, but continuing the tradition of keeping guys out of the main draw where you really prove yourself has ultimately lost a lot of steam over the years.

10/21/12 12:20 PM
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baby-silverback -  No matter what belt level, their organization its promoting it as such. It its just your belt level, but is still a legit championship. It is still a major win, a major championship Phone Post

how do you know who a legit white , blue,purple, or brown is?

10/21/12 12:48 PM
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GIBB0
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Edited: 10/21/12 12:49 PM
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Just for another perspective;

If you entered a state spelling competition in elementary school and won would you call yourself a state spelling champion?

I think most people would.

But the top university students in the state would most likely destroy you, so how can you call yourself state champion?

I think that if you are the world champion for your division then you have won a world championship.

(I just woke up so this might not make sense)

10/21/12 1:39 PM
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Calibur1980
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GIBB0 -

Just for another perspective;

If you entered a state spelling competition in elementary school and won would you call yourself a state spelling champion?

I think most people would.

But the top university students in the state would most likely destroy you, so how can you call yourself state champion?

I think that if you are the world champion for your division then you have won a world championship.

(I just woke up so this might not make sense)

People like you always leave out the fact that belts are completely arbitrary.

You can't compare belts to something clearly definable like age and gender.

If you are the blue belt world champ it just means your coach needed to promote you along time ago. Phone Post
10/21/12 2:56 PM
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forumnewb
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Edited: 10/21/12 2:56 PM
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joshjitsu - If you win at a IBJJF competition, called the worlds, then you are a world champ. doesn't matter the belt or if its adult or senior 4 IMO
 


10/21/12 3:15 PM
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kying418
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JSho -  None of them have a single black belt ibjjf Mundials title but...
-Rene took black belt gold at the last copa do Mundo in 2007
-vitor took black belt gold at the Copa do Mundo in 2003 (I think)
-Galvao closed out twice at rooster at the ibjjf Mundials 97 and 98 with NU teammates but Robson Moura and someone else, Marcelo Ferreira maybe, took gold in those years, no joint firsts at the Mundials...

so it's reasonable but not entirely accurate to call them world champs. Phone Post

That's exactly why I think some sort of across the board standards should be in place.

Heck, even legends like Robson Moura and Andre Galvao sometimes include their world championships at lower belts when counting their # of world championships.
10/21/12 3:41 PM
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CompanyBlue - Hockey, basketball, and I'm sure soccer and other sports have World Championships for people who aren't anywhere close to being the best in the world. Junior world championships, 19 and under, 23 and under etc. these are world championships for people at a certain age group only. It's somewhat comparable right? There are other sports who do amateur worlds too.

I do agree with what y'all are saying though, but I know the difference like all of you do so I don't let it bug me these days. The ibjjf worlds are not really world championships either. There should be qualifying to enter or invitations based on performances in other events, not just entrance based on being able to write a check. The way it is now lowers the quality of competition but it's all about the money so of course it's going to be open to anybody. Anybody else agree with me on any of this? How come one guy can win 1 match total and be world champion in a divison, while another guy had to go through 5 matches? The whole process is profitable but pathetic considering its the worlds. So many say winning brasileiros is tougher than mundials.

I am thinking of promoting y a couple 70 year olds with no training to purple bet and having the, enter the worlds. Nobody else will be in their division so one will become a world champion without having ever trained and the other one will be a world silver medalist.

please email me when promotion and bracket is a available.i would like to be considered for the position

thank you

10/21/12 4:48 PM
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kying418
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CompanyBlue - Hockey, basketball, and I'm sure soccer and other sports have World Championships for people who aren't anywhere close to being the best in the world. Junior world championships, 19 and under, 23 and under etc. these are world championships for people at a certain age group only. It's somewhat comparable right? There are other sports who do amateur worlds too.

I do agree with what y'all are saying though, but I know the difference like all of you do so I don't let it bug me these days. The ibjjf worlds are not really world championships either. There should be qualifying to enter or invitations based on performances in other events, not just entrance based on being able to write a check. The way it is now lowers the quality of competition but it's all about the money so of course it's going to be open to anybody. Anybody else agree with me on any of this? How come one guy can win 1 match total and be world champion in a divison, while another guy had to go through 5 matches? The whole process is profitable but pathetic considering its the worlds. So many say winning brasileiros is tougher than mundials.

I am thinking of promoting y a couple 70 year olds with no training to purple bet and having the, enter the worlds. Nobody else will be in their division so one will become a world champion without having ever trained and the other one will be a world silver medalist.

IBJJ Worlds- in the Adult Black Belt division, which I believe is the only World Championship for bjj, there are no divisions where you only have to win 1-2 matches.

I'm pretty sure most people have at least 4-5 matches to win.

You are talking about the IBJJF Senior or Masters divisions...which I dont believe should count when you are advertising yourself as a World Champion.

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