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BJJGround Forum >> Is BJJ Here to Stay or Will It Go the Way of TMA?


10/19/12 12:54 PM
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SpeedKing9
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Edited: 10/19/12 12:55 PM
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Do you think the popularity of bjj will stay around and not go the way of karate in the 70s, taekwondo in the 90s, etc. Is the difference between bjj and the other arts that we have live sparring in all of our classes and that it is so heavily emphasized in MMA/UFC so its relevance remains current?
10/19/12 2:40 PM
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cumprido1
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It's already different. Used to be mma/real fight oriented. Now it has become its own specific sport w/ non fight moves being focused on. Phone Post
10/19/12 2:57 PM
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ChokeUBJJ
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I think it'll always be around, just like Tae Kwon Do and Karate is still around. Maybe it's popularity will eventually wain, but for right now it appears to still be growing. Phone Post
10/19/12 3:02 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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Nothing ever really goes away, nor does anything really ever stay exactly the same. BJJ, like Karate and Judo, will change over time to respond to the environment and time in which it is practiced.
10/19/12 3:18 PM
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MickColins
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Americanization of every Ma eventually takes place Phone Post
10/19/12 3:57 PM
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SlapUsilly
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Think, Judo. That's bjj in the next 30 years.

It will become 'watered down', you won't have to go too far to find a school, there will be good gyms, there will be bad gyms, and there will be gyms that produce absolute killers.

BJJ wasn't perfect to begin with — we were all told it was by people who only did bjj and had a bias towards their own ways — so there is always room for evolution and development.

Look at the level of athletes that do the art today and compare it to athletes 10 years ago and to the level of the art as a whole.
10/19/12 6:49 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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Actually, I just realized yesterday was my jiu-jitsu anniversary. I started on October 18, 1997. It has changed a great deal in that time.
10/19/12 6:53 PM
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Jessy30
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^^^ what, conceptually do you believe has changed. obviously new moves that may or may not be used as s/d have been introduced...but my understanding from my professor is that all of these moves have been done before and everything that is shown he has seen for years in brasil...so my question remains...what REALLY has changed? Phone Post
10/19/12 7:32 PM
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SlapUsilly
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The vibe and general mindset.

Used to be about grappling and fighting. You never knew if/when you were going to have a challenge match. Us vs them mentality.

Now because of the growth and establishment of the sport-only part of bjj and because of it being proven as an effective art for fighting because of the UFC, it no longer has to be proved as effective to most outside people.

Now BJJ is seen to a large amount of people as simply something akin to the red lion to the Voltron that is MMA and the UFC.
10/19/12 8:06 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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SlapUsilly makes good points. I guess I could go on and on about what's changed, but I am just one guy, and I was never very good at jiujitsu or sports in general.

If I could focus on one thing, more than any other, that has changed since I first started it would be this: when I started the conceptual theme was on defeating fighters from other combat arts--boxers, wrestlers, karate, etc.--now the focus is on defeating other jiujitsu practitioners. It has become something of an inwardly focused game, whereas previously it was outwardly focused.

An example of how this plays out in technical development is the inversions you see now days. Before, this wouldn't fly because you expose your groin, but given the rules of modern BJJ its just another angle of attack.
10/19/12 11:35 PM
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303
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Here to stay
10/20/12 1:14 AM
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shen
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I agree, BJJ has changed a LOT, very quickly.

From most accounts it was pretty damn hard it was to earn a "black belt" in Karate or Tae Kwon Do in the 1960's & 70's. The training was difficult, even brutal according to most everything I have read. It was a serious activity.


Nowadays, karate as practiced in the U.S. is an activity mostly for children and generally -though not always- nonathletic adults who don't want the rigors and contact of Combat Sports.

As Mick Collins mentioned, the "Americanization" of martial arts is a very real thing that has effected every martial art that has come here. No matter what it is when it arrives here, we tend to dilute it, spread it everywhere via chain schools and crappy new organizations with lower standards, video testing, etc, until it is almost unrecognizable. For better or worse, that's the pattern.



10/20/12 9:14 AM
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shark tank
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cumprido1 -  It's already different. Used to be mma/real fight oriented. Now it has become its own specific sport w/ non fight moves being focused on. Phone Post

like any martial art, it depends on who you train with. There are still traditional schools that teach the traditional style of karate or TKD. The same is true with bjj. i train with phil cardella and he teaches a very self defense oriented curriculum. we may see many schools going the sport route but the traditional style is still around...just harder to find.

on this board, we see arguments all the time about traditional values in martial arts (specifically bjj) and whether we should buy into these practices. should i be loyal to my instructor? why should i be responsible for cleaning my academy? I will probably take some heat for this post, but i don't think that rules and points of the IBJJF are solely responsible for the changes in bjj.

i think there is value in the "martial way." when old school guys gave black belts, skill wasn't the only consideration. relson was a brown belt for 8 years. his dad didn't give him a black belt until relson "straightened up." the factors in getting a black belt have changed. no longer is one graded on teaching ability, attitude, demeanor and countless other qualities that used to be important. now, black belts are given away for profit. we see people jeopardizing the future of our art for profit. these are the changes i see as detrimental to our art.
10/20/12 5:47 PM
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cocksmasher
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Ill never understand why someone would just give away a black belt. If you worked your ass off to get a legit black belt why wouldnt you expect the same commitment from your students? I hope bjj doesnt get watered down like that ever. Phone Post
10/20/12 6:03 PM
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forumnewb
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cumprido1 -  It's already different. Used to be mma/real fight oriented. Now it has become its own specific sport w/ non fight moves being focused on. Phone Post

10/20/12 6:26 PM
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Soul Gravy
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Even sport jiu jitsu emphasizes live sparring in a way that separates it from most TMAs.
10/20/12 6:43 PM
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JasonGV
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shen - 

I agree, BJJ has changed a LOT, very quickly.

From most accounts it was pretty damn hard it was to earn a "black belt" in Karate or Tae Kwon Do in the 1960's & 70's. The training was difficult, even brutal according to most everything I have read. It was a serious activity.


Nowadays, karate as practiced in the U.S. is an activity mostly for children and generally -though not always- nonathletic adults who don't want the rigors and contact of Combat Sports.

As Mick Collins mentioned, the "Americanization" of martial arts is a very real thing that has effected every martial art that has come here. No matter what it is when it arrives here, we tend to dilute it, spread it everywhere via chain schools and crappy new organizations with lower standards, video testing, etc, until it is almost unrecognizable. For better or worse, that's the pattern.




What I've noticed recently is a rapid increase in a reliance on sleazy marketing practices. We see it with with instructional dvd marketing. I also notice it with club marketing. The focus is on attracting new students, teaching superficially and keeping them pleased and interested. Maybe favouring a couple of the younger students and ensuring they get more focus/attention so they can win a few comps and bring some legitamcy to the club.

Of course there are exceptions, but the McDojo proliferation is well underway. The only thing I can see slowing the spread is the access to free information which allows more committed students to inform themselves and make better decisions about who to give their money to.
10/20/12 6:48 PM
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JasonGV
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cocksmasher -  Ill never understand why someone would just give away a black belt. If you worked your ass off to get a legit black belt why wouldnt you expect the same commitment from your students? I hope bjj doesnt get watered down like that ever. Phone Post

For money.

Handing out belts to please students maximises customer retention. If you make it clear a black belt takes ten years, a customer has a clear, long term achieveable goal. The belt is based on time commitment, not skill/ability.

This is mitigated somewhat through rolling but not completely.
10/23/12 2:56 PM
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shen
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^ Good points.

I think it is UNDENIABLE that there is strong pressure on commercial instructors to promote students --at every level. The student is the customer, they are the ones paying the rent. If a student trains for an extended period and pays money, the instructor is NOT going to NOT promote them. They will get promoted eventually no mater what. It is the classic "sympathy promotion".

The instructor feels pressure because they don't want to lose that student and they want to encourage him. But also, they may feel bad because this guy has spent so much time with the teacher, maybe helped the instructor with his website, business, personal life --whatever. The least the instructor can do is hand him a cloth belt.
10/23/12 3:28 PM
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TBoy2
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Shen,

So are you saying that not everyone should be able to someday get a black belt?

I know there are different opinions on this, but I believe most people should be able to get their black if they put in the time and training.
10/23/12 5:27 PM
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JasonGV
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TBoy2 - Shen,

So are you saying that not everyone should be able to someday get a black belt?

I know there are different opinions on this, but I believe most people should be able to get their black if they put in the time and training.

I think, as you said, anyone who dedicates the time and effort can reach that level of ability/knowledge.

But some people don't. They turn up often enough, have a chat, socialise, roll a couple of times and head off. They don't need to get promoted, though they often do to keep them around.

Nothing wrong with a permanent purple belt. I know some people that are perfectly comfortable with that and would decline a belt because they know they aren't improving.
10/23/12 8:20 PM
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shen
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Edited: 10/23/12 8:24 PM
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I'm just saying you can be an incredibly bad/lazy/uncommitted Blue, Purple or Brown Belt and EVENTUALLY you WILL get the next belt, IF you hang-in long enough. It inevitable.

I know a GREAT guy who had been training about 15 years. He's a Purple and that's a stretch if you judge him by technique. Nicest guy ever. He likes to train when he wants, never really "learns" anything that I can tell. Never improves no matter what advice he is given. He is stuck at approximately new Blue-belt level, but he doesn't care. He has ZERO (and I mean ZERO) ego. He is an unusual guy and an unusual case. If you told him, "You will never be promoted again", he wouldn't care in the slightest.

Rank wise, I really don't know what you "should" do with people like that, but generally what DOES happen is they slowly they work their way up the ranks.
10/24/12 12:04 AM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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The Mat Pimp - SlapUsilly makes good points. I guess I could go on and on about what's changed, but I am just one guy, and I was never very good at jiujitsu or sports in general.

If I could focus on one thing, more than any other, that has changed since I first started it would be this: when I started the conceptual theme was on defeating fighters from other combat arts--boxers, wrestlers, karate, etc.--now the focus is on defeating other jiujitsu practitioners. It has become something of an inwardly focused game, whereas previously it was outwardly focused.

An example of how this plays out in technical development is the inversions you see now days. Before, this wouldn't fly because you expose your groin, but given the rules of modern BJJ its just another angle of attack.

TROOF!
10/24/12 1:16 AM
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JRockwell
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SlapUsilly - The vibe and general mindset.

Used to be about grappling and fighting. You never knew if/when you were going to have a challenge match. Us vs them mentality.

Now because of the growth and establishment of the sport-only part of bjj and because of it being proven as an effective art for fighting because of the UFC, it no longer has to be proved as effective to most outside people.

Now BJJ is seen to a large amount of people as simply something akin to the red lion to the Voltron that is MMA and the UFC.
BIG props for the Voltron reference. Phone Post
10/24/12 1:20 AM
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Ninten Do
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BJJ is going down the judo road and that is good - the alternative is the more humiliating karate road.

BJJ began as 2 arts in 1 - fighting (including self defense) and sport. The fighting side left for mma. Now there is only sport. Phone Post

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