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SurvivalGround >> Protection question. Guns....


10/19/12 9:53 PM
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MainelyBJJ
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If you were starting from scratch would it be better to buy all the same gun and ammo?

 

Like say if I figured 4 assault rifles and 4 hand guns were what I needed would it be smarter to buy 4 exact handguns and the same with the rifles?  Or is a variety better?

10/19/12 10:26 PM
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ringworm
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How many people are going to be using them? You and your family, just you?

It's not very useful to have multiple guns in the same category. Let's say 4 people are going to be using mid range rifles. If they don't match, and one person runs out of 5.56 ammo, but everyone else has 7.62 or .308 ammo, he's boned. Ditto if he steps on his magazine and breaks it, and his buddy who has three magazines has them in a different caliber. If one guy's trigger breaks, and another guy's firing pin breaks, at least they have enough parts for a working rifle between the two of them, but not if they have different models of riffle.

The same goes for you if you have a remote retreat and two totally different rifles at it. One can be out of ammo, and the other one can have a broken part. You've got all these bullets and rifle parts, but can't put together anything that works.
10/20/12 7:53 AM
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Dark Knight
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I would get the first to cover my need. Lets assume protection. I would go with a 9mm so i can afford to shoot it. Also go full size first, a micro compact will collect dust. Then I would buy a 22 handgun so I can practice dirt cheap.

Same in a rifle, what do i primarily want/need. But make sure of the need so i can afford to shoot it.

Then add what i want after the basic need is done.

So going back to a carry gun. I would buy a S&W MP9. Then a 22 so I can enjoy shooting. The lets say I want a 45 colt single action revolver. My basic need is covered, the revolver will not be used as much so now Im starting the collection.
10/20/12 8:20 AM
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MainelyBJJ
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Good stuff guys thanks. 

 

 

Im gonna buy a bus and make a "bug out bus" with it. So I am starting from scratch.  Good advice here so far thanks.

10/20/12 9:12 AM
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Dark Knight
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If you want better advice we have to know what you want them for. I have many that are recreational guns, competition guns, hunting guns. And so many options are avbailable.

Look at the AR platform. The upper can be changed. So you can have an upper in 556 for self defense, knock out two pins and change it to a Remmington 30 for deer hunting, or 22 for small game or plinking.

If you look at reasons to own basic guns you need in the rifle decision a small game, plinking 22, a middle range gun for game up to or including deer (some fall into big enough) and a large caliber for big game, long shots.

Then within each of these you may actually need two depending on different needs.

So add to the discussion what you think you need it for and lets narrow it down.
10/20/12 11:58 PM
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ringworm
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I'm guessing you're already leaning toward either an ar-15 or an ak47. They're both brilliant designs. We could spend all day talking about the pros and cons of each, but which one you should get depends on personal preference and how it's going to be used.

The ak was designed to be manufactured and used by careless, uneducated, barely trained peasants who spent most of their waking hours at least half drunk. So if you get one, it won't much matter how careful you are about picking the perfect stuff. Getting the optimal performance and reliability out of the ar platform however will depend on exactly which parts you decide to use with it, and if you want to go with the ar, I'll have lots of advice on what you should and shouldn't get.

It makes sense to own both a pistol and a mid range rifle. As far as pistols go, there are lots of reasons the 9mm parabellum is the best all around cartridge. The other guy here just touched on a few of those reasons. If you wanted to get anything else for your first handgun I'd try to talk you out of it.

The other guy suggested a S&W MP9. If I could only have one handgun, it would be a Glock. Google these two guns and you'll see they're almost exactly the same thing.

The question of which you should buy first, the pistol or the rifle is easy to answer. The main advantages of a pistol are that it's easily concealable; and it's not too much of a burden to carry on your person for long stretches of time when you don't intend to use it. If you intend to get a CCW permit and carry a gun, get the pistol first. If you intend to store the gun somewhere and only take it out when want/need it, get the rifle first.

From what you wrote it sounds like a rifle is a more appropriate for your first firearm. So from here on out, I'm just going to assume that's what you'll be getting.

Here are the minimum things I think you should get with any magazine fed firearm (pistol or rifle):

* the rifle itself
* two magazines
* two snap caps
* The Marine Corps Rifle Marksmanship manual (it's free here)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/usmc/mcrp/3-01a/mcrp3-01a.pdf
* a bulk purchase of ammo (say 1,000 rounds)
* a decent quality airsoft version of the rifle
* 10,000 airsoft pellets

The main reasons for getting the airsoft version and all those pellets are the same as why the other guy is suggesting making your second gun a .22. All remotely modern defect free firearms are fairly accurate and reliable. Your success while using them will depend far more on your skill than on the rifle itself.

You won't build skill if you don't practice, and it will take a hell of a lot of practice for you to be able to shoot up to the level of your rifle. It'll probably take you more than 10,000 airsoft pellets just to consistently shoot up to the level of a $200 airsoft gun. With a good replica airsoft gun, all that skill will translate directly to real-steel.

Put all the ammunition in another room, then use the snap caps and the two magazines to practice speed reloads and weapons handling at home. Go to the range to put all those skills together and to learn to deal with recoil. The extra money you spend on training will go infinitely further than if you'd spent it on getting `more gun`.

Hope this helps.
11/2/12 7:21 PM
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MojoJojo
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Great post, Ringworm!
11/7/12 9:47 PM
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sly fox
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ringworm, with the airsoft versions what range are we talking about shooting at?

11/7/12 9:47 PM
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sly fox
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ringworm, with the airsoft versions what range are we talking about shooting at?

11/7/12 10:42 PM
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ringworm
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About 10 yards. The m4/ar-15 airsoft guns usually have the same adjustable iron peep sights are the real ones (I mean exact replica interchangeable part). So you could zero them at a lot of different distances. My basement was 10 yards long, I just set it for that, and it gave me a nice flat trajectory. I played airsoft golf with pingpong balls on the grass, and definitely needed to use holdovers at 15 yards.
11/7/12 11:25 PM
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sly fox
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interesting... certainly a heck of  alot cheaper than firing loads of ammo

11/8/12 12:34 AM
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ringworm
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You'll still need to go to the range to get used to:
*Managing recoil.
*Handling and firing a live weapon around other people handling and firing live weapons.

---

Marksmanship fundamentals are crucial to all kinds of shooting, take a lot of shooting to perfect, and translate 100% from airsoft to real steel. It makes sense to do as manny different kinds of shooting as you can, but to do the majority of your practice with airsoft (at least until you can shoot up to the level of your airsoft gun). You can't really pick up bad habits from an airsoft gun if you're only using it for precision shooting

---

Also, airsoft can be useful for force-on-force training if you know how to employ it. In other words:
*No scenarios with long distance shots, only CQB.
*No full auto.
*Don't hold or point the gun in a way you wouldn't if you had to deal with recoil, and don't take shots you wouldn't if you had less than 120 rounds of ammo in all your magazines.

I played with these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck4PpouGGo0

I was already used to things like shooting from cover and slicing the pie. The first thing I learned was that I hadn't been moving nearly fast enough when running from one piece of cover to another durring tactical carbine classes. Eventually I was really able to wrap my head around the concept of suppressive fire, and how it should be employed (another thing I was never going to learn on the range).
11/8/12 12:34 AM
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ringworm
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Edited: 11/08/12 1:23 AM
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^^^ Oh, and while a bunch of the people I played with were little kids (does that make me a poopy pants?) A lot of them were active duty members of the 10th mountain division who'd seen combat in Afghanistan or Iraq, and told me that they liked the airsoft game because it was almost exactly like simunition training they did before deployments.
11/9/12 11:22 AM
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sly fox
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Edited: 11/09/12 11:21 AM
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thanks for the info ringworm good stuff!

voted up

11/10/12 2:30 AM
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ringworm
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Thanks, since you seem to be interested, I'll describe how I setup my basement airsoft range. I went through a lot of trial and error, and bought expensive things only to find out that cheap or free things were really better. I'm not going to cover the failures, only the stuff that worked.

I read all the military manuals that had anything to do with using rifles, even the ones that only covered small unit tactics. I also watched youtube videos and bought instructional DVDs. The only two sources that covered all the important material were the army rifle marksmanship manual, and the marine corps rifle marksmanship manual. The army manual had badly written redundant prose, and wasted too much space on irrelevant ballistics tables. The marine corps manual was concise and addressed essential tactical shooting.

I know I posted this before, but I'm going to post it again for emphasis.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/usmc/mcrp/3-01a/mcrp3-01a.pdf
There's no point in taking a gun and trying to teach yourself to do something with it, if you don't know what it is you're trying to do. If someone can't sit down and read the manual first, they shouldn't bother spending money buying guns.

The first target I setup consisted of an empty cardboard box with a birchwood casey shoot n c stick on target affixed to its front. I used this target to zero the gun for the maximum distance in my indoor range. The marine corps manual is the best guide for zeroing an m4 type airsoft gun. The shoot n c targets give you instant feedback on exactly where your shot landed. This saves a lot of time. You can shoot your eye out, or even chip a tooth with an airsoft gun, but a folded up corrugated cardboard box is a sufficient backstop when shooting one. If you use stick on targets, and keep sticking new ones over the old ones, the box will last indefinitely.

Next I setup a stack of cardboard boxes at one end of the basement to simulate cover, and at the other end I setup four stacks of cardboard boxes, each with a small round chest hight shoot n c target, and another shoot n c target at head height. I practiced pieing, rolling out, shooting while crouched behind cover, all both left and right handed aiming at the chest height target then the head height target. I also used mirrors next to the targets to see if I really had everything except my hands and eyes behind cover, or if I was too exposed while shooting.

They say the bullet is the truth (or in this case it's the airsoft pellet). If you're doing everything right tactically, and you're hitting the bullseye every time, it's all good. But if you're taking all the time you need to make your shots, yet they're not landing in the same place, there's something wrong with your body positioning and sight picture that you need to correct. The shoot n c targets are good teachers. They always tell you right away when your fundamental marksmanship is wrong.

Does your right handed zero work just as well when you're shooting left handed? It should. After you've zeroed for shooting off hand with no cover, do your shots pull to the left or right when you cut the pie? They shouldn't. If you've zeroed for the chest height target, do your shots land too high or too low when you're aiming at the head height target? They shouldn't. Do you shoot at least as well from crouching as from standing? You ought to.

While you're in the process of getting all this straightened out you should, even without trying, learn to call shots. Once you can call shots, you don't need to buy any more shoot n c targets for your indoor range. If you get a 12 pack of six inch targets for $5, at Walmart, shoot 4 shots into each, use all the pasters, shoot a 5 round group, and then affix a new target, you're paying less than a nickel each time you squeeze the trigger. However you're still paying 40 times more than you would be if you didn't need to keep buying new targets, and when your goal is to shoot over 10,000 aimed shots, this adds up.

For my next phase, I switched to using empty plastic soda bottles. I used a mix of 2 liter and 20oz. The big targets were for fast shots without a lot of aiming, and the smaller targets were for slower shots with more aiming. I suspended them from the ceiling at varying heights with thread tied around their necks. I'd walk around doing the groucho, shooting them as soon as they came into sight, learn to shoot over the sights, turn my back to them, spin around and shoot them all one single time starting with the ones that presented the largest target, put them in the corners and practice driving the gun back and forth between them as quickly as I could, etc.

As I got better, the size of both the big targets and the small targets decreased. I took down the 2 liter bottles, and left the 20oz ones, but then I added more 20oz bottles that had the bottom halves cut off of them. Then I took down the full size 20oz bottles. I added pingpong balls scotch taped to the ends of strings. They gave a highly satisfying jump when they were hit, and it was really easy to tell if your shot was too far to the left or the right just from the direction they bounced in.

Eventually the ping pong balls got to be too big, and my new small targets were the bottle caps from the 20oz bottles, all resting in a neat line on top of a brick. I stayed with these for a long time, but eventually my smallest targets were a series of copper end caps for pipes with the flat round side polished and facing the muzzle of the gun. At 10 yards a 3/8 inch end cap is just a shinny little speck, and instead of trying to put your front sight post in the middle of it, you're trying to put it in the middle of your front sight post.

After that I bought an EOTech for a real rifle, but I tried it out on the airsoft one first. My last session doing any real target shooting with the airsoft gun involved me using it to trim weeds. At that point I decided I was finally shooting up to the level of the gun, and it would only ever be useful to me again for force on force training.



A lot of people will tell you that scored shooting on paper targets is the only way to learn, and anyone who does plinking is an ignorant hillbilly. I'd like to make a few points:
One - A lot of those hillbillies are frighteningly good shots; so much so that it's part of the stereotypes about about them.
Two - Snipers are the best shots in the military. All U.S. military sniper schools rely primarily on steel targets that make a loud plink when they are struck.

Seeing or hearing whether a target reacts as soon as you fire provides instant feedback on each shot. This is far more useful than knowing exactly where your last five shots landed without knowing for sure which of the five was the best, and which was the worst. In practice you want to make things easy enough that you're hitting at least 60% of your shots, but you're hitting more than 90%, it's time to start making things more difficult.
11/10/12 4:44 PM
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sly fox
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awesome, really explains it well... very nice progressive method... I dont have a basement but have a double garage I could use, another nice thing about the airsoft gun is you can practice when you dont have enough time to treck to the range, so can practice a bit everyday

11/10/12 5:22 PM
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sly fox
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a quick question, dark knight said about changing out barrels on a gun, is that a viable option for a rifle?

11/10/12 5:56 PM
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ghost of KVR
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depends on the gun and set up, but yes

11/11/12 12:03 AM
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Dark Knight
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sly fox - 

a quick question, dark knight said about changing out barrels on a gun, is that a viable option for a rifle?


For the AR you have a pretty big selection
11/12/12 12:00 PM
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sly fox
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there seem to be a ton of AR variations...is there a site with good info on makes and the like?

11/13/12 1:47 AM
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ringworm
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Basically no. There's ar15.com which is to ar15s what this site is to mma. Lots of information, not well organized, a fair amount of it incredibly biased.

When I went to buy one, I found the most reputable FFL in my area, told them exactly what I wanted:

*Reliability is the most important thing
*Accuracy is a distant second
*Right after that is low recoil, and nothing else is particularly important
*Not willing to sacrifice safety or reliability for light trigger pull
*Don't care about brand names or looks
*Don't care how much it weighs
*Willing to spend what it takes to get what I want and no more
*Think I want a chrome lined barrel and chromed bolt carrier group
*Think I want as much of it to be mill-spec as possible

The guy told me that I was absolutely right to get chrome linning and mill-spec parts if I wanted reliability. Then he let me try out the actual trigger that ended up in my rifle to see if it was too heavy. Long story short, he custom built the whole thing from parts, I ended up getting exactly what I wanted, and paying as little as possible.
11/13/12 10:26 PM
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sly fox
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thanks again ringworm, great info

11/14/12 5:03 PM
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ringworm
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Sure sure. I'll try to write something on the relative advantages of different calibers, and also something about the evolutionary psychology of different prey species on the North American continent - since both of these topics have been touched upon.
12/10/12 4:36 AM
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ringworm
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So did anyone purchase equipment?
12/10/12 5:33 PM
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LeroyJ
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I'd look at the main uses of each class, then figure out what you need:

Shotgun - bird hunting, Deer hunting, personal protection, skeet & trap

Small Rifle (.22 or equivalent) - plinking, target practice, varmint hunting, cheap shooting & training for new shooters

Large Game Hunting - 3006, 308 etc. Deer & Elk hunting, sniping, target practice, long distance, heavy impact gun

Assault (AK/AR variants) - military & LEO uses, fun for shooting, heavy firepower for defense uses, can be used for hunting

A perfect beginner's arsenal would look something like:

Ruger 10/22
Remington 870 12ga
AR form factor 308 variant
9mm or .22 handgun

This would have you pretty well covered for most purposes, but a heavy lean towards hunting & fun.

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