UnderGround Forums
 

HolyGround >> question bout divorce.


4/5/13 12:48 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/05/13 9:48 AM
Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1883
<blockquote>Ali - OK, I just didn't see the irony."

sorry double post. This did not show up earlier.
4/5/13 1:11 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ali
667 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/05/13 1:11 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 10716
OK, man... I don't want to argue over what is or isn't "ironic." I'm dragging things away from a discussion you had going with zealot that was potentially far more interesting. I apologize.
4/5/13 9:48 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/05/13 9:51 AM
Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1884
<blockquote>Ali - OK, I just didn't see the irony.</blockquote><br />



The irony is that the term Christian was only used 3 times in scripture while the word slave is the word picture that was really used to describe followers of Christ.


The irony is that men (churches) do not want to tell you the real truth about scripture because people do not want to hear it. It makes them uncomfortable . they want to beleive in the God of their own imagination and not undertand His character. They want their God so they can go out and sin and feel good about it. Their God is not the biblical God of scripture , but instead their God is who they see in the mirror. I call them the unsaved-saved.

Churches, peastor, leaders.. they are the wolves and they tickle the ears of the many who want to hear what they say.

Fear god and repent! Repent is listed in teh New testamant I don't know exatly how many times..? I think it occurs 46 times in 43 verses in a King James Bible . But more in more accurate translations.


We.. you , me, we all need to repent! repent from choosing to marry a non beleiver. repent from going to churches who allow sin. Repent from not reading your bible and being obedeint TO IT and what it says!.. repent repent repent!

James 2:19

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
4/5/13 10:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1885
zealot66 - 

And we shake our heads and wonder WHY christianity is becoming more irrelevant to the culture and we can't even put up a good debate against Gay Marraige. Same reaons. Why? Because God says this in chapter and verse. No really, lets move beyond this and get at the root issues. Oh shit, you mean my bible verse didn't convert you? You wicked man who is hard of hearing and the scripture is hard on your ears. You are a God denier, a backslidden christian, no wait, you never believed at all. - The world shakes their head and wonders why the guy can't think for himself and deal with issues intellectually and leave Christians to debate amongst themselves preaching to the choir as Rome burns around it. 

Evangelicals have little to nothing to offer the world at large in its current state.


Romans 1:26

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [r]unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing [s]indecent acts and receiving in [t]their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit [u]to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,


Mankind is depraved. It says right here that because of this god "GAVE THEM OVER" meaning he abondoned them to do what they please. His Grace is twofold. it falls on teh righteous and unrighteous. That is why after god proclaimed death to Adam. Adma still lived for hundreds of years. His Grace falls on the whole world to see it.

The resulting list of what happens from this is listed after verse 28 in Romans. It is a sign of what the result of sin and how depraved we are yet do not see it.

Only God can illuminate the heart. Through sripture and the holy spirit He sent to those to ackowledge.
4/5/13 10:13 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1886
zealot66 - 

Also,

"Again for the most part i agree with you except for maybe on a different level. Evenaglical christinaity does not espouse to biblical doctrine. God created us to be worshippers. What we worship is what we beleive in. Could be we worship education or a job. So if we worship false doctrine or even a stick or a tree or whatever. we worship that. So what is your point?"

What we worship is what we believe in-- that is a very telling statement where I believe most christians get entangled with right fighting and doctrinal debates which equals seperation and squabbling. Like Divorce, I think for you in a church, if a pastor had my viewpoint you would leave the church and move on to a place where it is according to you, more biblical. 

In essence, you are worshipping doctrine and the bible. This moves the debate into a very deep and wide subject of how we view the bible. I fundamentally believe that worshipping the Bible is a form of mental bondage and holding so tight to particular doctrines is a root of all kinds of problems internally and the world sees this oftenn times as reason to stay away. Am I advocating chucking th bible? no way. I believe that even Paul admonished to be careful- 'You foolish Galatians, who has Bewitched you'. 

This stance on Divorce is the original issue and the responses from you that I think isn't realistic and doesn't follow reality, much less how to fix a bad situation a person has found themselves in.


So how can we tell if we are truly Christians? Well, the key is clearly found, revealed by Christ’s own lips: “ ...those who do the Will of My Father which is in Heaven...do...the things I say.
4/5/13 5:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
zealot66
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12836

I don't really have issues with what you are doing. It sounds different and inclusive. I wonder though how long a person like myself would be loved and tolerated in your group. I wouldn't make it past the 'church' part. We are just on different paths. I have not found a setting where I feel l comfortable. I am not contentious just for the heck of being a jerk. I have real issues that I deal with and have spent a lifetime wondering about and searching. I don't find it amongs the majority of people. I don't discourage people from staying in a place and getting what they feel they need in a church or group.

I just always beware those who make rules and regulations and live harshly by them because they could be a lot less correct than they think. Are there absolutes? I think there are certain ones. When it comes to 'church' I don't find any definitive evidence that a group has found it. To each his own. If it works for you then go for it. I am more invigorated by contested discussion and self study than anything. by self study, I mean not just me and my own interpretations, I mean studying what the greats have thought. By greats I don't mean the latest preacher/scholar with a book tour. I search back to the church fathers and others for truth that closest relates what the gospels preach. 

People take issue with me even reading things by John Dominic Crossan because he was part of the Jesus Seminar. I don't think much of the Jesus Seminar but Crossan's Historical Jesus was one of the best books period about the time period in which Christ emerged. It doesn't mean I'm 'in line' with the Seminar type of thinking. If NT Wright and Crossan can discuss things in a civilized manner and engage eachother in debate, how can I do any less by examining both religious and secular. 

I have an education in Ancient History, basically biblical studies from a secular institution but a man need not have done that to be educated. But it does take effort. People who scoff at higher learning are usually either afraid of what they will find or are incapable of keeping up with what is being taught. I am thankful for going through the program I went through and studying ancient history and biblical studies from a secular viewpoint because it stripped away all of my pre concieved notions of doctrine and challenged even the most inner core of christianity. What can be of more value than having seen the dragon and walking away? Insular living is not for me.

4/5/13 5:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
zealot66
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12837

BTW,  you didn't answer who your main teachers are? I'm not going to pick on them, I'm just wondering what movement you are part of.

4/5/13 6:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
zealot66
12 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 12838

So you ask how do we know who are real christians? I tend to look at this in this manner. Are you saved all at once or are you in a process of working out your own salvation with fear and trembling?

Where in the scripture is there the sawdust road? An altar call or the sinners prayer? Just exactly how saved can you be? Though alot of strict enforcers would SAY, you are saved when you accept Jesus and repent the truth is that legalism creeps in and if you don't follow their road of rigid conformation and partake of what they consider the Christian life, they question your salvation then regress to , well he must have never been saved anyway.

Others say that as long as you genuinely repent that you are saved. 

Life is a continual process of movement. The things I loved in my twenties bore me to death now. people I once had sincere affection for have forced me to turn away from their shenanigans. 

I don't believe there is a formula for 'staying saved'. Nor do I buy the line that if you 'fall away' that you were never saved in the beginning. I'm aware of ' he that went out from us.....' You won't be the same person you are now in 10 years. You may not even be involved in your church in 5 years. Say you have a disagreement with the leadership that devolves into a falling out. You are basically cut off. You don't attend church anymore, you decide taht some of the things you believed are not accurate, others will determine you to have never been saved. yet you haven't decided to abandon Christ. Or maybe you do this or that. 

If you are in a place where you are judge and jury over another mans life, you should question where your motivation comes from. When alot of hardcore people get honest with themselves, which the rarely do, they don't like what they see in terms of motivation to act the way they do.

I'm not accusing you in particular, I'm answering your question with a question and in essence saying if a person cares enough to wonder about their own salvation, they are probably on the right track. 

4/5/13 6:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ali
667 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/05/13 7:52 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 10738
Thanks zealot -- I don't want to interrupt, because I think this conversation is more revealing and interesting just being able to read it as it evolves between you two, without potential long tangents. So quickly... for that post^ in particular... just thank you. There's A LOT in there, in a very small space. I thought I should say it.
4/5/13 10:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/06/13 12:03 AM
Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1892
Well Zealot, I agree with Ali. I will try to keep things short without going on long tangents so i will try and keep it short. Also if I make it personal and about me we will be here for a really long time. :)

First i should say nobody was my main teacher. I am not part of any "movement". . Otherwise i would not have the view of the institutional church that i do. That kind of puts me out of the realm of most evangelical circles.


What makes a person a Christian? Well, the Protestant denominational institutionalized church-goer will quickly parrot the verse,, “ Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ” While this may be true “ at face value, ” it must be understood in context. This “ whosoever ” is NOT A UNIVERSAL, ALL- INCLUSIVE, EVERY-LAST-ONE, ALL-THE-TIME WHATSOEVER.

Also I do not belive that repeating a sinners prayer is biblical. ...I am going to regret saying this without explaining further.. Now, no doubt, there will be some who will be very upset by this statement; and the reason they will be upset is because they are allowing their emotions to control them.


We are told that “ we will know we are Christians by our love, in keeping God ’ s Commandments. ” (1 John 5:2-3; 2 John 1:6) Unfortunately, most people misinterpret this verse, because they do not know what love is. Christ defined love for us as “ obedience ” when He admonished us, “ IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. ” (John 14:15) Christ also told us that He knows who His sheep are: THEY WHO HEAR HIS VOICE AND OBEY HIM. (John 10:27)


There are people who simply cannot be saved no matter what they do. Even though they seek it with many tears and words of mourning, just as Esau did when the birthright was given to Jacob instead of him.

Romans is the most theologcally rich book in the bible yet most people just read over it and suppose it says this or that. And i guess you could by studying a couple versus for an hour or two and kinda think what Paul is saying. But really it is far richer than that. The greek , the jewish cultural backround and history. It is chocked full of theology. Learning what the jewish terms mean changes everything.. for instance..when a jewish person refers to THE "HEART" as a jewish term it means, the heart is "everyting you desire". EX:"You love your sin with all your soul, mind, with everything in you" -your Heart. Meaning YOU LOVE IT!! Your heart is the very essence of the inside of you. Another word:..........."lust"- actually means a hunt! Lust is an emotional hunt for sin. When we lust we hunt, it means we are proud of ourselves... All these words are just the tip of the iceberg in properly undertanding Gods word and our fallen condition.


Regarding you last post. Mostly Romana explains all that:
One big point Paul was making is overlooked and without listening to what the parrot heads are trying to sell you. Most evengelicals teach and beleive that being positionally saved and that sanctification are two seperate issues and that sanctification is seperate issue from being postionally saved. Whereas Paul in Romans was arguing "NO!" They are one in the same. They go hand in hand. Being saved and being holy ( sanctified means to be holy )is one and the same. They are not to seperate issues or things that happen at different times. Being saved and being sanctified (HOLY) are one and the same ..
4/12/13 7:42 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1893
I have another question for the forumites.

What if your ex wife cheated on you and gets a divorce and then remarries and later you have sex with her. Is she then then committing adultery with her husband on her husband in Gods eyes? Would you be considered an adulterer by God after you made a covenant of marriage with her to Him?

Now what if she has kids with the second husband? Does that change anything in Gods eyes? I mean for you..the one she made a covenant with and then slept with? Or would she have to divorce and do over another covenant with you over again for it to be not considered adultery?




HA HA HA!
4/12/13 8:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/12/13 8:01 AM
Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1894
Or let me repharse this question so it is a little eaier..


What if my wife divorces me and remarries. And I then slept with her?

Would I have commited adultery? Or would I have to wait until she divorces and redo another covenant with God which i never broke?
4/12/13 8:03 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1895
Or is this all just to legalistic for you grace heads?

4/12/13 8:06 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1896
gord96 - That's alot of legalism in the above post. The main jist of divorce in the gospels is mainly about Jesus helping out women (who if divorced in that culture, where is a pretty bad spot), not to make a bunch of rules that 2000 years later people are still arguing over.

I don't like divorce but if two people can't stand each other, it may be best for them to divorce. And in our culture, women are just fine as they don't rely upon their husbands like they did in Israel circa 30 AD.

?????????????

still to much legalism huh?
4/12/13 8:34 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gord96
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/26/03
Posts: 14234
I would say you shouldn't sleep with your ex-wife if she remarried. I would call that adultery and against the spirit of the law, even if it might be not so simple in the letter of the law. I think to Christ that spirit is more important then the letter. My thoughts anyways. Phone Post 3.0
4/12/13 8:50 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/12/13 9:00 AM
Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1897
<blockquote>gord96 - I would say you shouldn't sleep with your ex-wife if she remarried. I would call that adultery and against the spirit of the law, even if it might be not so simple in the letter of the law. I think to Christ that spirit is more important then the letter. My thoughts anyways. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post 3.0" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/></blockquote><br


Even if he did not want the divorce?


So you are saying if she wants to reconcile with her husband (who wants to be with his wife) she married first that she has to divorce her second husband to be with the first and then it is still a sin for him if they sleep together? Or then it would be okay in the "spirit of the law"? Or would he become te adulterer because he slept with his wife?

So if she does divorce her second does the first husband have to do his vows (covenant)all over again even though he never divorced his wife?

Gord , it sounds to me that you are the one following the letter of the law. THE LAW OF MAN AND THE COURTS. Yet you reject Gods laws.

What does it mean when it says "what God joined together let man not seprate"?
4/12/13 8:51 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/12/13 9:01 AM
Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1898
double post
4/12/13 9:06 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1899
gord96 - I would say you shouldn't sleep with your ex-wife if she remarried. I would call that adultery and against the spirit of the law, even if it might be not so simple in the letter of the law. I think to Christ that spirit is more important then the letter. My thoughts anyways. Phone Post 3.0

so Christ would condem the victim in a divorce?

So the minute the gavel slams down on a divorce judgement. That spouse who woke up that morning who was married that morning. Then 2 hours later God says you are no longer married. Christ will say sucks for you. To bad you are the victim and now it is wrong for you to sleep with your wife ever again.

HA HA HA HA!
4/12/13 9:39 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gord96
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/26/03
Posts: 14235
I wouldn't put that much thought into it. If my wife cheated on me and left, I would consider that the end of our marriage regardless of any court.

If she came back and wanted to sleep with me one night, while still in the relationship with some other guy, I would consider that wrong and would try and avoid it. If she came back one night and was single again I would still try and avoid it as the marriage would be over to me, even if legally we were not divorced.

I would try and forgive her and be amicable with her, but in no way would I consider living as a married couple again with her. Phone Post 3.0
4/12/13 11:43 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1900
gord96 - I wouldn't put that much thought into it. If my wife cheated on me and left, I would consider that the end of our marriage regardless of any court.

If she came back and wanted to sleep with me one night, while still in the relationship with some other guy, I would consider that wrong and would try and avoid it. If she came back one night and was single again I would still try and avoid it as the marriage would be over to me, even if legally we were not divorced.

I would try and forgive her and be amicable with her, but in no way would I consider living as a married couple again with her. Phone Post 3.0

Prsonally I would not either..but I am not making it personal or a question about what you choose to do. I am asking a question about the God and the bible.

How does one repent of an unlawful marriage?

It seems that zealot took that same path and made it personal about him when he became defensive about his wife. This is not about you, your wife or which side of the bed you get to sleep. It is strictly a question about Gods word. I am not making it personal.
4/12/13 11:55 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1901
When two people are lawfully married.."Lawfully married" can only mean and apply between 2 saved Christians.

God does not care about those marriages between those who do ot beleive in him in the first place. That is not a 3 way covenant!

The Lord said it very plainly and simply. What is tolerated today was not so from the beginning and will not be tolerated in the judgment (speaking of 2 saved Christians) If we divorce our spouse for any reason except sexual immortality (fornication), and then remarry - we commit adultery! If we marry one who has been divorced and remarried for any reason save sexual immorality - we commit adultery! We know from Galatians 5:19-21, that no adulterer will inherit the kingdom of God! It is that simple! Marriage, while not existing in eternity (Mark 12:25), has eternal consequences.


4/12/13 12:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
gord96
76 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/26/03
Posts: 14237
Don't agree with your view of Galatians 5:19-21. I see it as habitual behaviors that a person does with little to no remorse. The adultery mentioned in those verses in my view is referring to a serial cheater, not someone who got caught up in a bad marriage.
4/12/13 1:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1902
gord96 - Don't agree with your view of Galatians 5:19-21. I see it as habitual behaviors that a person does with little to no remorse. The adultery mentioned in those verses in my view is referring to a serial cheater, not someone who got caught up in a bad marriage.

Isn't divorce and remarriage the same as serial cheating?

Anyway, you are not really answering my question.
4/12/13 1:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1903
How does one repent of an unlawful marriage? Two ways are revealed in scripture. The first, and ultimately best way, whenever it is possible, is to end the unlawful marriage in the sight of men, and be reconciled to the one whom God knows you are still joined to in His sight (your first lawful marriage - 1 Corinthians 7:10-11). Whenever the first way becomes impossible, because the first spouse does not want to be reconciled, we are left only one choice. We must become a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven's sake (remain unmarried and do not commit fornication - Matthew 19:12; 1 Corinthians 7:11).


What if children are involved? This is where things get very emotional and messy, but do not change the law of God. Read the following passages and consider who must come first - God or man: Luke 14:26, Mark 10:29-30 and Matthew 10:37-39. Obviously the children cannot and should not be abandoned, but the unlawful relationship must end if repentance is to prevail
4/12/13 1:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 04/12/13 1:39 PM
Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1904
I must point out again what the scripture means as lawful. Obviously it is lawful for unbeleivers to divorce and remarry under mans laws. They are, after all, following "the law'. but this is not the law that the criptures speak of or Jesus referred to.

The marruage covenant has it laws. Man breaking gods laws are teh reason for the fall. It was so offensive that God had his own son murdred and tortured in the worst way anyone ever has. iF that does not tell you something about Gods wrath and anger over sin. nothing will.

Also I will refer back to genesis again where Eve decided on her own good will to change the word of God in the "so called spirit of the law" by saying they were also not allowed to TOUCH the fruit. WELL HECK IT SURE SEEMED LIKE A GOOD IDEA NOW DIDN'T IT? But God never said that. It is in our sin nature (because of the fall)to always want to change Gods word for whatever reason we indviuals speculate. Especially when it SEEMS good to us to try and do so (ie Eve). We miss the mark. We sin!
Beware it is very dangerous to add to the word of God.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.