UnderGround Forums
 

S&C UnderGround >> VEGETARIAN DIET AND THE GORILLA AND GORILLA TURDS?

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

11/4/12 8:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sewich
64 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/13/09
Posts: 5258
Dakotajudo dropping truth on the armchair argonmists lol.

Organic grown crops are not herb/pest free crops and most of the time have to use more to make up for using less effective solutions which have been shown to be more damaging to the soil/runoff than roundup.

So unless you are growing all of your food yourself in your back yard using no chemicals you should stop quoting Food, INC like you have any clue as to what farming entails and stfu. Phone Post
11/4/12 9:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
dakotajudo
48 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/5/09
Posts: 193
Taku,


I don't believe I said that I base my eating, shopping etc choices on science. I base my choices on my needs, preferences, goals, abilities, limitations, etc.


Maybe I got distracted, but I was really trying to point out the production issues, and what you might need to make an ethical choice.


90% of the time I buy my fruits, vegetables, meats, dairy, fish etc all from local famers markets. Most often I know these people personally. When I say local I mean from within my state. My state is large, so this does not mean I can walk on over and pick the stuff. I do live in a city (urban area) and do not have a yard or place to grow my own stuff. A;though I do have some freinds and family near by who do grow some fruitss and veggies. I avail myself of these as often as possible.


You should, in general, at least, foods that scale well for local production. For some grains, I think, it works better to grow a lot in a small area and ship out, than to try to grow locally in low yielding batches. For the same reason, I tend to prefer fresh fruits and vegetables in season, and canned or frozen out of season. Grains store year 'round, fresh fruit has to be hauled daily.

Although I will admit to a bit of hypocrisy. I eat bananas nearly every day, even though there's not a banana plant in sight. I assuage my guilt with the thought that we ship out a lot of wheat, that doesn't grow well in the tropics.


But you mentioned "organic", frequently. And that's a different issue. Ask your farmers at the market, I would suspect many grow using traditional methods. With organic produce, I'm more concerned about how much is discarded due to insect contamination. Myself, I don't use much insecticide in my garden, and I tolerate the occasional worm or bug track in my veggies.

Hey, moth larvae are extra protein.


I have recently made a switch away from whey protein. Most of my protein comes from meat, chicken, eggs etc. I do eat raw milk from local farms (because I like it).

I sometimes buy organic milk, not because it's organic, but it's the only source I can find for non-homogenized milk. Eh, I like the taste better, but it's too expensive for every day.


Do you personally feel that Monsanto has the peoples best interest at the heart of what they do?

Monsanto, as corporate entity? Corporations exist to make profit, that's a fact of life for most companies. I don't much care for a lot of Monsanto's corporate practices.

That does not detract from the simple fact that the product they make is, as these (http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/17918/PDF ) authors state, a once-in-a-century product.

They are aggressive in protecting their patents, but not really much more so than other crop industries. Even in the public sector, land grant university scientists sue farmers. See http://sdstate.edu/news/articles/pvp-rights.cfm.

I know these people, they do their work with peoples best interest at heart. But as far as protecting their intellectual property, they're not that different than Monsanto or any other corporation.

The ironic thing of this is, is that the wheat breeding program, and wheat producers, have been singularly resistant to Monsanto's technology. Monsanto has tried to introduce Roundup-Ready wheat and has had very little success. Production-wise, it just doesn't make much sense; no real advantage for GM wheats, as yet.


Does Monsanto care about people? As aggressive as they are in enforcing their patents on Western farmers, they do provide a "humanitarian use" exemption for some technologies, and they gave up patent rights to Golden Rice.

Maybe it was misguided - personally, I offended some people when I suggested that the Golden Rice effort would have been better directed toward convincing people to switch to brown rice - but I don't doubt that the individual researchers involved in the product were working for the greater good. A lot of the people involved with Monsanto are not soulless corporate drones.

It's a common choice, I think. Can you do good work for a company that is run by assholes? Can you do the same good work somewhere else?

I write software for a company that produces solutions for many of the large agronomic corporations - but we also work for the public researchers at land grant universities; that's were my heart is, so I accept working for one so I can help the other.

The people I work with, public or private, aren't that much different than each other; most believe in the common goal of solving food security for a growing world. There I some things about companies like Monsanto that I despise, but I hate to paint the whole company with a broad brush.

Personally, though, I buy glyphosate, but I don't buy RoundUp.
11/4/12 9:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
dakotajudo
48 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/5/09
Posts: 194

Yes, as someone who grew up commercial fishing, having worked several years in industrial seafood processing, and having done scientific research for state and federal fish and wildlife offices; and also as someone who hunts and fishes for subsistence (never been to a commercial hunting area, or an area with stocked fish or game). Not that it makes a differernce to the thread or the points I've made (listing qualifications/experience don't, imo, have much place in public internet discussions).

Sometimes it's important.

People learn from their experiences, particularly when the disconnect between theory in practice is great.

With Wikipedia, anyone can be an theoretical expert in an online discussion; I like to know when someone has experience, so I'm not shy about giving my own.


Ultimately, I agree with everything you've written-- ONLY if you note this as applicable only to areas like the US (especially the farming issues you addressed), or even areas like Japan, but this whole idea of destroying natural habitat to make room for crops to feed animals, at least as I was reading the thread, has little to do with farming in countries like the US. But I'm sure you know that the situation is entirely different in, say, Brazil, where farming of beef results in massive deforestation. It would be like me comparing responsible seafood harvest in British Columbia or Maine to the unsustainable methods done out of Taiwan.

Well, we are getting a bit far from the apes, and I certainly couldn't argue about seafood methods (it's something I've read a bit about - what was the book, "7 fish", but I'm a farm boy, we barely got lakes here.

However, and this should probably be my last post in this thread, but there has been already massive deforestation in the United States to make room for crop production. It happened a good 500 years ago, by the pre-European settlers. They cleared forest land for crop production, but not for animal use; instead, they tended to use larger areas for polyculture.

How much of an effect on forestation didi this have? The decimation of the native population, and the resulting reforestation, has been linked to a drop in CO2 enough to trigger the Little Ice Age ( http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/335168/title/Columbus_arrival_linked_to_carbon_dioxide_drop )

I can't speak much to that. I live in what was called the Great American Desert; we never had much trees to begin with.

Although it might be worth noting that even in the pasturelands, native grasses have been replaced by introduced species.
11/4/12 9:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
dakotajudo
48 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/5/09
Posts: 195
ravenman2000, yeah, thanks for those pictures.

Unfortunately, it reminded me of something I ran across years ago, how GH abuse leads to enlarged guts. Reasonable theory - GH promotes excess soft-tissue growth, but can't find anything solid, at least academically, spent the last hour on it.

But you might enjoy

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/articles/fat-loss/595-fat-attack-nov-2005.html
11/4/12 10:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ArthurKnoqOut
52 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/6/10
Posts: 1880

the dudes with the guys aren't on a vegetarian diet of any sort so posting them as a physical similarity to a gorilla is quite dumb, Gorillas have digestive tracts that differ from humans as has been stated on page 1 and that his trainer was wrong. 

argu

11/4/12 11:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Taku
174 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/04/12 11:25 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6261

dakotajudo,

Hey brother, again I say wow. I honestly appreciate your time and efforts and passion. I certainly would never claim to be an expert on farming (nor have I ever claimed to be an expert on any other topic).

My take on the Monsanto issue is this: Do people have a right to know, and choose if the foods that they eat are GMO or not? I feel that the answer is yes. If you wish to eat a diet rich in GMO foods, it's your choice. I should be able to readily choose not to. To have the freedom to choose, I must be able to know which foods are GMO and which foods are not.

Thanks for your time. I am going to respectufully bow out of this conversation because I feel I have nothing more to add and I am content with my own personal choices and feelings on the matter.

Best of luck to you moving forward.

TAKU

11/5/12 8:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Gokudamus stole my name
122 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 21348
ArthurKnoqOut - 
Gokudamus stole my name - "After reading all that all I can think of is LOL"

I get the same reaction every time i read your vegan hipster diet "advice"

 

nice try but I am neither vegan nor a hipster and my advice has gained me two Olympians and over 2 dozen division I athletes not to mention over a thousand people whose doctors personally thank me for their patients amazing blood work :)

 

 

. What has your advice done? 


Is that why you keep repping vegan products on your fb and twitter? Atleast be a man about your "lifestyle" brah

11/5/12 11:31 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
mike_rizzo
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/2/11
Posts: 403
love nutrition threads. sub for later Phone Post
11/5/12 11:35 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jeremy hamilton
338 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3866
So I should stop eating turds?
11/5/12 12:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
big_slacker
29 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/05/12 12:35 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 15353
I"d hate to go 3 levels deep on an analogy, but MS's attempt to 'own' the market was seen early and slapped around a lot by regulation. Had they not been it's likely a lot more of your personal information would be owned by MS and their licensing schemes would be even worse than they are now. The same is true of government attempts to censor and control the flow of information on the internet. (See SOPA recently) This isn't conspiracy theory stuff, it's just about $$ (in the case of MS) and power in the case of the US gov.

I understand the aversion to tinfoil hat stuff, but some people do try to educated themselves about what they put in their mouths (and what the nation as a whole does and it's effects) and do draw some logical conclusions based on what they read. That doesn't mean they're an expert, but I'd say it does mean they shouldn't be discounted as a 'wikipedia expert'. I'd say I read a couple nutritional articles a week and I usually go look at cited studies to the extent that they don't lose me. ;)

That aside, I see that most of what you're posting has to do with production/yield. And I understand that monsanto (and others of course, I don't want to single out just them) have helped with the shift towards much greater yields, along with nationwide and worldwide supply chains. This is a good thing in terms of getting food to plates and boosting profits for the companies involved and I get that is the point you're making.

My concern is more one of quality of our food. You mentioned specifically studies about grass fed vs. corn fed beef. I've also read about the antioxidant and omega 3 profiles being better in the grass fed but negligible in terms of the human diet (you get a lot more of the good stuff from a salmon steak, fish oil caps, chia seeds, flax, etc...) but total fat content and cholesterol *IS* higher in corn fed vs grass fed across the same breed and cuts. For reference this is the review that I read (after reading an alarmist article and googling for the source) and probably the same one you did?

http://www.nutritionj.com/content/9/1/10

If the vast majority of what a non-nutri-geek sees when he walks into the meat section in his supermarket is corn fed, higher fat/cal stuff and that's what he eats for dinner every night what happens? Now what happens if there is a similar shift in all of the other foods people eat? I'm talking the corn syrup in everything, hydrogenated veg oil in everything, etc... That is great for low price and shelf life (which probably STARTED as noble goals) but pretty bad for the waistlines and overall health of our nation.

Now this is where we get into the discussion of who is ultimately responsible for a person's health, the individual or the producer. That's a tricky one, right? It's easy enough to say that producers are just giving people what they want and delivering that well. But if you're a results based person you look at where that gets us, with heart disease and obesity rates at shameful levels. This is where regulation and public information about the effects of food are supposed to come into play. And this is where companies like monsanto get themselves their reputation. They've been caught with their hand in the cookie jar subverting the regulatory process, they spend a LOT of money trying to block information like food labeling (7m+ fighting prop 37 in CA for instance) and people are supposed to believe they're on the up and up?

Nowhere would I say throw the baby out with the bathwater in terms of advances in food productions. I would expect also that we wouldn't put our heads in the sand and say that yield and profit over the health of our nation isn't an issue with food production either. It's not good enough to say that problems with regulation happen everywhere and there can be conflict of interest. It's clear that there *IS* and the consequences have been devastating whether it's the financial industry or the food industry.

About growing stuff in the back yard, I think the owner is ok with backyard boxes and any kind of non permanent irrigation. We've got a pretty damn fertile climate here in the PacNW for growing, and I've become such a fan of truly fresh produce that I gotta get moving on this. :)

Finally, Sewich. We're trying to have a discussion here that benefits everyone. If you've got something to add let's hear it. You don't have to pick a team and cheerlead or fight.
11/5/12 1:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Taku
174 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6263

Hey JH,

Totally up to you. I am all about "pro-choice". If you enjoy eating the turds...Knock yourself out.

TAKU

P.S. try dipping them in Thai Chili-paste for a little spicy kick.

11/5/12 3:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ArthurKnoqOut
52 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/05/12 4:45 PM
Member Since: 9/6/10
Posts: 1881
Gokudamus stole my name - 
ArthurKnoqOut - 
Gokudamus stole my name - "After reading all that all I can think of is LOL"

I get the same reaction every time i read your vegan hipster diet "advice"

 

nice try but I am neither vegan nor a hipster and my advice has gained me two Olympians and over 2 dozen division I athletes not to mention over a thousand people whose doctors personally thank me for their patients amazing blood work :)

 

 

. What has your advice done? 


Is that why you keep repping vegan products on your fb and twitter? Atleast be a man about your "lifestyle" brah
 

 

I also praise grass fed and free grazing products on those exact social networks, pal. Nice try though. I've specifically stated in both of them the importance of said non-vegan products as well as this very forum itself. 

 

How can I be vegan when I eat mahi mahi, eggs and raw cheese? Funny because 2 months ago I've also posted turkey burgers that my girly and I made.... I must be sooo confused :-\

FURTHERMORE, since you either follow me or e-stalk me or whatever, why don't you search the forums to where I, on at least a dozen occasions, state that what I follow I DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY recommend what I personally do to people I work with, such as intermittent fasts, juicing, cleanses, endurance/adventure running, power lifting, metabolish conditioning, energy system work, HIIT, SAID.

Now, regardless if you are Paleo or vegan, they are all against factory farming, low-grade food (high kcal, low nutrients) and basically have more in common than they do differences. Even Rich Roll, a hardcore vegan/plant powered advocate stated so on many occasions including the JRE... I pride myself on being as versatile as Mike Dolce and if he's a vegan hipster then I welcome that label warmly...

big slacker made some great retorts I'd also add that the post he's replying to seems to be very heavily propaganda (pro Monsanto and co) ridden and that there's some overwhelming contradictions like A. Monsanto has the peoples well-being in the highest priority then B. Monsanto is a corporation and thus is all about profits. C. I don't mind working for them as they have (clearly "just  for show" chairitable works...LIKE HALIBURTON) D. Tell that to farmers in India, Brazil, Venezuala to mention a few, of late.

"Monsanto should not have to vouchsafe the safety of biotech food. Our interest is in selling as much of it as possible. Assuring its safety is the FDA's job ." -- Phil Angell, Monsanto's director of corporate communications, quoted in the New York Times , October 25, 1998

"If you put a label on genetically engineered food you might as well put a skull and crossbones on it." -- Norman Braksick, president of Asgrow Seed Co., a subsidiary of Monsanto, quoted in the Kansas City Star , March 7, 1994

 

11/5/12 7:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
sewich
64 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/13/09
Posts: 5262
big_slacker - I"d hate to go 3 levels deep on an analogy, but MS's attempt to 'own' the market was seen early and slapped around a lot by regulation. Had they not been it's likely a lot more of your personal information would be owned by MS and their licensing schemes would be even worse than they are now. The same is true of government attempts to censor and control the flow of information on the internet. (See SOPA recently) This isn't conspiracy theory stuff, it's just about $$ (in the case of MS) and power in the case of the US gov.

I understand the aversion to tinfoil hat stuff, but some people do try to educated themselves about what they put in their mouths (and what the nation as a whole does and it's effects) and do draw some logical conclusions based on what they read. That doesn't mean they're an expert, but I'd say it does mean they shouldn't be discounted as a 'wikipedia expert'. I'd say I read a couple nutritional articles a week and I usually go look at cited studies to the extent that they don't lose me. ;)

That aside, I see that most of what you're posting has to do with production/yield. And I understand that monsanto (and others of course, I don't want to single out just them) have helped with the shift towards much greater yields, along with nationwide and worldwide supply chains. This is a good thing in terms of getting food to plates and boosting profits for the companies involved and I get that is the point you're making.

My concern is more one of quality of our food. You mentioned specifically studies about grass fed vs. corn fed beef. I've also read about the antioxidant and omega 3 profiles being better in the grass fed but negligible in terms of the human diet (you get a lot more of the good stuff from a salmon steak, fish oil caps, chia seeds, flax, etc...) but total fat content and cholesterol *IS* higher in corn fed vs grass fed across the same breed and cuts. For reference this is the review that I read (after reading an alarmist article and googling for the source) and probably the same one you did?

http://www.nutritionj.com/content/9/1/10

If the vast majority of what a non-nutri-geek sees when he walks into the meat section in his supermarket is corn fed, higher fat/cal stuff and that's what he eats for dinner every night what happens? Now what happens if there is a similar shift in all of the other foods people eat? I'm talking the corn syrup in everything, hydrogenated veg oil in everything, etc... That is great for low price and shelf life (which probably STARTED as noble goals) but pretty bad for the waistlines and overall health of our nation.

Now this is where we get into the discussion of who is ultimately responsible for a person's health, the individual or the producer. That's a tricky one, right? It's easy enough to say that producers are just giving people what they want and delivering that well. But if you're a results based person you look at where that gets us, with heart disease and obesity rates at shameful levels. This is where regulation and public information about the effects of food are supposed to come into play. And this is where companies like monsanto get themselves their reputation. They've been caught with their hand in the cookie jar subverting the regulatory process, they spend a LOT of money trying to block information like food labeling (7m+ fighting prop 37 in CA for instance) and people are supposed to believe they're on the up and up?

Nowhere would I say throw the baby out with the bathwater in terms of advances in food productions. I would expect also that we wouldn't put our heads in the sand and say that yield and profit over the health of our nation isn't an issue with food production either. It's not good enough to say that problems with regulation happen everywhere and there can be conflict of interest. It's clear that there *IS* and the consequences have been devastating whether it's the financial industry or the food industry.

About growing stuff in the back yard, I think the owner is ok with backyard boxes and any kind of non permanent irrigation. We've got a pretty damn fertile climate here in the PacNW for growing, and I've become such a fan of truly fresh produce that I gotta get moving on this. :)

Finally, Sewich. We're trying to have a discussion here that benefits everyone. If you've got something to add let's hear it. You don't have to pick a team and cheerlead or fight.
I will choose a side and fight because being a farmer I get this fucking shit all the time and it pisses me right the fuck off. People who have no idea wtf they are talking about. All they do is quote these biased food docs like Food, inc. I'm not Dakotajudo who did a very good job of taking time to spell this stuff out for you guys. I don't feel obligated to teach city boys shit I would much rather say fuck you.
Talk to me when people who don't know anything about your job start preaching about how bad your job is for everyone yet still reap the benefits from your job. Phone Post
11/5/12 8:41 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Taku
174 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6264

sewich,

The only thing I can say from my end, is that none of this stuff is personal. I am not attacking anyone personally and I do not take anything that anyone says to me in an internet forum personally. If you choose to take it personally, that's up to you (however I do not recommend it).

No one is saying anything about you, your family, etc,

The guidelines of how to conduct yourself on these forums are clear. I have been a moderator for years and do my best to keep things civil.

I would respectfully ask that you do the same.

Cheers,

TAKU

11/5/12 9:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
big_slacker
29 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/06/12 9:16 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 15356
Yep, it's clear that everyone here hates farmers and got all their info from food inc. Thanks for sharing, enjoy your farming.

PS-I'm not a city boy.
11/6/12 2:33 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lord Kancho
22 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/3/08
Posts: 3175
Taku - 

Hey Raveman...Not sure I agree with the idea that simply having a higher number of folks eat a plant based diet, automatically = less industrailized farming.

MONSANTO = PURE EVIL. STOP GMO at all costs. Do your homework and see if this is a easy or hard. While you are at it, look into what farming on a large scale does to top soil, etc.

Good Information HERE:

It is not an easy problem to solve.

Big_Slacker...Great to hear that you have experienced health benefits from changing your personal eating plan.

I do not have a name for the way I eat, but if someone were tp pigeon-hole it I would say it looks like a PALEO approach. In all honesty I don't consume a lot of red meat, but I do eat eggs, and raw milk, as well as chicken and fish occasionally.

All meats that I buy are free range (wild caught), organic, etc. Beef (bison, etc) is always free-range, grass fed, organic. I only drink whole raw milk (and don't drink it that often). I use protein powder that has no colors, additives, flavors etc. I consume a good amount of leafy greens, fresh fruits, raw nuts and seeds, etc. I avoid bread, pasta (all refined carbs). Don't eat beans or potato's either. I rarely consume tempeh or tofu products.

My body seems to function best on this sort of plan. I have experimented with many approaches and this one "feels" best for me.

TAKU


I'd love to know how Taku and people on paleo/vegan diets keep their calories up. I recently went on paleo for a cut and am stuffing my face like a madman just to get my calories where I want them (3100-3500).

After this I want to add some muscle mass and I don't see how sufficiently I can eat in the 4000-5000 calories per day range on a paleo diet.

I'm eating entire meals of meat/veggies/nuts/fruit/oils every few hours... these aren't snacking portions!
11/6/12 7:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
262 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11/06/12 7:29 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11727
Lord Kancho - 
Taku - 


Hey Raveman...Not sure I agree with the idea that simply having a higher number of folks eat a plant based diet, automatically = less industrailized farming.



MONSANTO = PURE EVIL. STOP GMO at all costs. Do your homework and see if this is a easy or hard. While you are at it, look into what farming on a large scale does to top soil, etc.



Good Information HERE:



It is not an easy problem to solve.



Big_Slacker...Great to hear that you have experienced health benefits from changing your personal eating plan.



I do not have a name for the way I eat, but if someone were tp pigeon-hole it I would say it looks like a PALEO approach. In all honesty I don't consume a lot of red meat, but I do eat eggs, and raw milk, as well as chicken and fish occasionally.



All meats that I buy are free range (wild caught), organic, etc. Beef (bison, etc) is always free-range, grass fed, organic. I only drink whole raw milk (and don't drink it that often). I use protein powder that has no colors, additives, flavors etc. I consume a good amount of leafy greens, fresh fruits, raw nuts and seeds, etc. I avoid bread, pasta (all refined carbs). Don't eat beans or potato's either. I rarely consume tempeh or tofu products.



My body seems to function best on this sort of plan. I have experimented with many approaches and this one "feels" best for me.



TAKU


I'd love to know how Taku and people on paleo/vegan diets keep their calories up. I recently went on paleo for a cut and am stuffing my face like a madman just to get my calories where I want them (3100-3500).

After this I want to add some muscle mass and I don't see how sufficiently I can eat in the 4000-5000 calories per day range on a paleo diet.

I'm eating entire meals of meat/veggies/nuts/fruit/oils every few hours... these aren't snacking portions!

I can eat a lean grass-fed steak in one sitting that nearly satisfies your calorie requirements and still be hungry. Forget about adding in fruits, nuts, or eggs. And I won't even mention oils...3 tbl spoons of cod liver oil is pushing 400 calories all by itself.

Paleo can be tough for guys who can't eat much but want to keep their calories high.
11/6/12 7:30 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
262 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11728
Dammit i mentioned oils...
12/10/12 5:23 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Fedors Jim Jams
8 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/2/11
Posts: 975
interesting
12/10/12 10:20 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ArthurKnoqOut
52 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/6/10
Posts: 1966

Was that a troll about calories? haha

12/10/12 10:24 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
blacksamurai
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/11/05
Posts: 1580
dakotajudo -
ArthurKnoqOut - 

I think the vast majority of vegans are healthier, however. Of course there are the junk food vegans/vegetarians that we've spoken of in many threads in the past but I rarely see vegans who don't know about b12 or omega-3s etc whilst I see even body builders who only understand macros and not trace minerals, nutrients, vitamins, etc.

That being said, your coach/trainer, OP is a bit nuts...Gorillas also have little peckers so does that suggest that dudes with small penises are stronger than dudes with larger penises? 

Taku, it is actually better for the environment, it's just hard to really conceptualize it but overall, the major production of grain and soy and corn (all terrible things) are done to fatten up livestock (also something they shouldn't be consuming since they ruminant animals. So, that alone is "better" for the environment. 

 


The majority of cropland, in the United States, falls to four crops - wheat, corn, soybean and alfalfa, mostly equally divided among the four; the rest is mostly small grains like oats or barley, some sorghum or sunflower, but for now we can ignore those.

Wheat is not fed to livestock - it's too valuable as human food. Been a stable for millennia. Soybean, about half is processed for animal feed - it's a good protein source compared to forages and it's a good complement for other protein sources, with regard to amino acid balance, as well.

Corn is the only grain where the major production goes to cattle feed. I don't know why you'd think cattle shouldn't be consuming corn, simply because their ruminants. Perhaps you think their feed only grain corn during finishing?

The farm I grew up on, we fed out roughly 200 head of yearlings a year; about 100 or so were raised in pasture on our land up to weaning, the others usually came from further west.

(This is important - calves and breeding herds are kept on pasture in dry regions, where crops don't grow well, then shipped for finishing to regions where crops predominate - this is an efficient use of agricultural resources. You would tend to burn the same amount of fossil fuels to plant poor cropland for less return.)

Anyway, feeder calves typically got a mix of alfalfa and silage; silage being the whole corn plant, chopped up. This is little different that grass, other than it lacks the noxious weeds that tend to make hay unpalatable. They would only get about 10% corn grain sprinkled on top.

This was always fun. I had to carry corn in buckets by hand from the grain bins to the feed lot. You know the Farmer's Walk exercise? That's what I did for real, about 200 meters one way.

And the last 50 meters was usually through a crowd. Steers love corn - love it. Here I am, a buck-thirty in high school, a five gallon bucket of corn in each hand, trying to work through a crowd of 600 pound adolescent animals, all wanting some of that sweet, sweet corn. Sure, it's relatively high calorie content, but, as an exercise enthusiast, you should know that to gain mass, you need to maintain a reasonable level of macronutrients. Since cattle don't handle lipids that well, it's carbs.

The diets the cattle receive, in production, are usually based on the recommendations of animal nutritionists - people who go to school specifically as health and nutrition majors, but for animals.

But, back to last of the big four - alfalfa. Alfalfa is good stuff. It's perennial, so putting a field into alfalfa for a few years reduces tillage; it's a legume so it helps restore soil nitrogen, it works well in dry environments, it's a great source of protein, and since it's a forage crop in it can be planted as a mix - with clover or grass, perhaps.

Trouble is, people don't eat it. They could, I suppose, but people are fussy about what they eat these days. The only way to profitably use alfalfa is to feed to cattle, or sheep. Not hogs, though.

So, if you look at the overall picture, eating beef is "better" for the environment.
Why is wheat so popular even though since 2005 we have testing that shows it causes celiacs and people have wheat allergy why not produce more corn, oats and steer people to eat alfalfa... Phone Post
12/10/12 11:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
262 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 11917
ArthurKnoqOut - 

Was that a troll about calories? haha


Are you talking about me?
12/10/12 5:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ArthurKnoqOut
52 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/6/10
Posts: 1977
vermonter - 
ArthurKnoqOut - 

Was that a troll about calories? haha


Are you talking about me?

nah, mate. The question itself. Why would someone think that vegans who are supposedly primarily carb-heavy and Paleo who are supposedly protein and fat heavy would have a hard time calorically? 

12/10/12 7:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
big_slacker
29 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 15404
I think when people think vegan they think you're throwing down massive portions of veggies at every meal. Yeah, brocoli has big volume and low calories, you could get full but not get enough cals.

I blend a lot of fruits/veggies. Each shake has around 750-800 cals and that's 3 servings I drink throughout the day.

Meals generally are made up of 1/3rd of a plate of beans/lentils, 1/3rd grains (brown rice, quinoa), and 1/3rd veggies.

I eat a good amount of avocado, nuts and some peanut butter.

I can track my meals tomorrow and let you know my total, but I'm sure it's right around the same as when I ate meat.
12/10/12 11:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Badmonkey
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/15/07
Posts: 7573
big_slacker - I think when people think vegan they think you're throwing down massive portions of veggies at every meal. Yeah, brocoli has big volume and low calories, you could get full but not get enough cals.

I blend a lot of fruits/veggies. Each shake has around 750-800 cals and that's 3 servings I drink throughout the day.

Meals generally are made up of 1/3rd of a plate of beans/lentils, 1/3rd grains (brown rice, quinoa), and 1/3rd veggies.

I eat a good amount of avocado, nuts and some peanut butter.

I can track my meals tomorrow and let you know my total, but I'm sure it's right around the same as when I ate meat.

im interested in that info...

| Share | Email | Subscribe | Check IPs

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.