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HolyGround >> Where I'm At...


11/24/12 2:32 PM
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RoidsGracie
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You are addressing Jesus as a historical person and both as a supernatural figure. I was merely talking about him as a human being - leaving out the discussion oh whether he was the miracle worked and savior that people said he was supposed to be. And as I've pointed out - Jesus as a historical person would not have been too interesting to Roman record keepers. So yes the only evidence would be what has been handed down to us by the community that formed around him. Instead of dismissing the evidence out of hand - let's try to see what sort of information we can extract from it. There is reason to believe that they would have exaggerated or fabricated what Jesus did since we can see even in our own time that people will often do that for people who they hold in high esteem. Now making up someone completely out of thin air is a whole other level. I can imagine a motivation for the former but not the latter.
11/27/12 11:04 AM
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CJJScout
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I think you would enjoy reading Francis Schaeffer. Start with "The God Who Is There".
11/27/12 5:03 PM
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zealot66
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More interesting, here are some jewish responses to Jesus from the rabbinical schools that came out of the destruction of Jerusalem. Not much but then again, to assume that Jesus was on anybodies radar for at least a hundred years really is inaccurate. Proves nothing but responses from ones enemies or critics is probably more important than ones allies.

http://jewishchristianlit.com/Topics/JewishJesus/

 

11/27/12 5:04 PM
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zealot66
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btw, Francis Schaeffer rates really low on my list. He was a family tyrant and his arguments in The God who is There are based in circular reasoning. It doesn't help solidify anything about Jesus, imo. Unless you believe beforehand.

11/27/12 5:13 PM
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CJJScout
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Eh, nobody denies he struggles with temper. However, everyone, including his sisters, say Franky has blown his dad's temper way out of proportion.

I can see your point about solidifying anything about Jesus, that comes in other works, but it makes a good case for the method in which God communicates to a fallen man.
11/27/12 9:32 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Edited: 11/27/12 9:34 PM
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What's the point? Why can't I know God without placing faith in a man or a group of men? Why must I study "his" word to build a relationship? Why must I trust the historical accounts of others? Why does my eternal health rely on accounts I cannot prove? I don't need to study a book to know the sun gives off heat. I know it because I experience(d) it.

I just think the bickering over who Jesus was, whether real or not, is opposite of what God would desire - if he wants a relationship. Because this is now my outlook on the spiritual side of ourselves, largely based on how I view the world - which is very largely due to circumstances I have no control over, am I to believe I'm broken? I'm in a state of disrepair? I'm not irrational - at least from my perspective. All this makes sense to me. Am I deceived? Is deception much too strong for an all-powerful and all-loving creator to overcome?

Why am I supposed to have a desire to study "his" word? Why am supposed to have time to do so? Why I spend so much energy to simply prove what's truth or what's not? The entire premise defies my logic at the present. I have a life to live. Why spend it devoted to something that we don't know is true or not. Sure you can hope it's truth, but does revolving you life around a hope that may be false make sense?

I don't need a book to tell me that being kind to others and being love to others is above all... And that being selfless is the ultimate reward. We all know this deep down. Some are just great at suppressing it their entire lives and it makes them old and crotchety.

All I'm saying to those out there is that the alleged evidence for the existence of a supernatural being that walked the planet as our savior is not at all concrete...

Outside of the Bible, it's beyond difficult to find anything that supports the biblical claims of this man/god. Really, it is.

The difference between a believer and a skeptic is what one accepts as proof versus what one does not accept as proof.

At some point you must give in to your hope or to your skepticism. The end result determines whether you fit into the believer category or not.
11/28/12 4:50 PM
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zealot66
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I don't know how long you've been around the HG but we don't really differ in our opinions much. I long ago cast off the idea of traditional christianity. I haven't been to church in 10 years. People say I'm headed to hell because I have questions, doubt against the great machine of christendom. Don't mistake me for a personn who is going to say the bible is infallible word for word, especially the OT. I don't have all the answers. 

I keep referring to the likely Jesus of History and Jesus who transformed into Christ. Was that done by christians after Jesus left over a series of years as his story grew. I think probably so. What I was trying to say to you is be careful that you don't simply run to the opposite end of the spectrum on Jesus simply because a bunch of schmucks believe their own hype. The other side is just as looney. you have to find your own spritual path. 

I'm a history guy. I spent 4 years in college studying ancient history and languages. I think I've put in some time academically, formally and tens of years on my own, studying this Jesus person and Christianity. As a result, I belong to no church and am a christian agnostic. If God judges me for using my brain, then I don't know what kind of god that is. He is big enough to deal with the fact that he gave me a mind to think with. Peace on your journey.

11/28/12 5:48 PM
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JitsuGuy
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I can certainly relate to a lot of that. Good stuff, zealot66. =)

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