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Canada UnderGround >> fellow bjj heads please clear this up


10/27/12 9:46 AM
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Claude Patrick
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ok.. the gracie breakdown of ryron vs galvao fight.. i was thinking ryrons effort was shit at first then after watching this 50+ mins video (sections of it anyway) im not sure.. Am i drinking from the pure water's yet? this fight martial arts shit is crazy
10/27/12 10:06 AM
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Claude Patrick
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i sorta wish ryron made a fight of it and not a self defense exhibition but there is no denying the logic of the argument these guys have so thoughtfully laid out.
10/27/12 12:57 PM
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Rodrigo Munduruca
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I thought he was gonna get killed by Galvão...like everyone else I guess

I was impressed that Galvão couldn't get even close to sub him or even stabilize a more effective position. Hats off to flowboys! Phone Post
10/27/12 2:33 PM
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Claude Patrick
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its two different approaches i always felt there wasnt a man alive who could consistently tap anyone just turtling the whole match with no intention of being offensive or trying not to be positionally dominated.. in the case of ryron its sill because he is very legit even in sportive match

has wins
over
cameron earle
crosely graice
cassio weneck
joe stevenson
jason miller

ect

the guys no joke and an even meaner marketer:)
10/31/12 11:39 PM
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karmarep
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There is some truth and value to what Ryron is saying. Didnt Ali use the rope a dope?. Not much different.



If you love bjj u should be able to see the value in that match.
11/1/12 10:47 AM
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deepu
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Royce's opinion on his draw with Shamrock is surprisingly apt:



Stolen from Felipe Costa's facebook.
11/1/12 11:42 AM
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Shotta
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Win:
2 a : to gain in or as if in battle or contest b : to be the victor in

I guess it's just perspective. Phone Post
11/1/12 12:55 PM
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Turbogoat
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Survival is an undervalued aspect of martial arts. Phone Post
11/1/12 1:14 PM
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karmarep
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Royce and Ken match was a little different. there was not many positional changes and (If I call correctly) and I think that match was 35 minutes. the lact of exchanges saved Ken energy and help Ken not gas. Royce was hoping to defend until Ken gassed. I can't see Royce using any other game plan.

Ryron invited the bigger and faster athelte to attack and finish from different positions (guard, mount , side, turtle, half gaurd) The match was 20minutes and I think Ryron game plan was to was tap Andre late or finish strong leaving us wondering what if this was 30 min or no time limit. He was somewhat successful in doing that.
11/1/12 1:29 PM
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deepu
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What bugs me is that defending subs in an *inferior position* is not good enough for self defense. The guy can still pound you senseless. A huge part of standard Bjj is getting out of bad situations fast and then establish superior position, this accounts for this.

This approach of waiting for guy with superior position to make the move is all fine and well when there are no points and time limits, but add striking, it all goes out the window. So I don't buy the self defense aspect at all. It was just rule exploitation.

If Ryron was trying harder to get out of bottom side mount/mount etc, then there would have been more chances for Galvao to catch a sub. In that sense, I find Royce's quote to be very apt here.
11/1/12 1:32 PM
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deepu
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I should add however that I was expecting Galvao to tap out Ryron in 5 mins, in that sense Ryron impressed the hell out of me and hats off to him ... he showed he can hang with the best, not win, but hang.
11/1/12 1:36 PM
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scalesaj
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I really wasn't sure what was going to happen in this match.

I bought the ppv to see what was up!

I agree a little with Rodrigo, I thought Galvao would catch him. But after watching the break down I understand what they were trying to do.

And let me tell you they Have "BALLS"

They used their methodology of Jiu Jitsu being self defense but they put against a BJJ World Champion.

These guys get their balls broke because they make events to carter to them. But man, if you can't submit them and make your point then they have something here.

A good example is Krons fight, he admitted the his opponent is stronger then him and can play they IBJJF rules better then him and he would beat Kron.

But.......... when they surpassed the IBJJF time of 10 minutes and Kron was able to out last his opponent Kron got the submission.

That' what I think this event was all about.

I will be buying the the next one.
11/1/12 2:07 PM
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wiley
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Being able to defend submissions and escape them and bad positions is fundamental. However its when you can reverse the roles from defensive to offensive to secure the win thats essential.

In self defense I dont want to be defending for a long time. Defend & Escape & Reverse the role of the fight and then its time to defeat that person via submission or position control.

Street fights dont go 20mins, they only last a few mins.

I enjoyed the fight a lot, it was great.

I think they had a script ready for whatever might have happened. If Ryron won, would his chat still be defense/escape/etc.... ?
11/1/12 4:00 PM
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BALEIA
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With all due respect to the Gracie Family, this basically played out exactly how I thought.

A very expensive Gracie Jiu-Jitsu commercial indeed.
11/1/12 4:02 PM
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BALEIA
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Hellio Gracie got his shoulder destroyed against Kimura, where Carlos had to throw the towel in. No mention in the video above.


Royce got smashed by Matt Hughes but than turned it around and said Jiu-jitsu won because Hughes had to use Jiu-jitsu in order to win. Really?


The Gracies have paved the way for everyone and I respect the heck out of them but come on. Nobody wanted to see that match like that. They wanted to see who would submit who. Andre tried....Ryron didn't.
11/1/12 4:03 PM
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BALEIA
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Edited: 11/01/12 4:05 PM
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I think the event was great and important but this match and the videos after and discussion was stupid. At one point Ryron saying how meaningless gold medals at mundials are. Why because he never won one?
That is a complete insult to the BJJ community and even other members of his own family.

Did Ryron keep it playful when he fought Mark Laimon? In that match he was actually attacking alot. Oh and thats the match where the Gracies had the rules changed on the day of the fight, but Laimon accepted and won by points.

Im not hating on the Gracies, but it irritates me to see them do this.
11/1/12 4:08 PM
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BALEIA
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Edited: 11/01/12 4:08 PM
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For the record, Andre fights at 170 in MMA and in jiu-jitsu maybe 185. Ryron is much taller and not too far off to that weight. So Andre was not the bigger guy. And even if he was....isn't that what Jiu-jitsu is supposed to be about? The smaller guy overcoming and defeating the larger opponent?
11/1/12 4:28 PM
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karmarep
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In the Gracie break down Rener and Ryron discuss a student killing the competition scene, living sport bjj and getting super fit to compete. They fast forward 10 years on the same guy and he quits BJJ because his body/age caught up with him and he is no longer king of the hill and can't train 6 days a week to keep it up. The claim this same guy can't defend for LONG periods of time and is not comfortable in bad situations for long periods of time because they where so dominated as young BJJ players.

they go on to say ..."add in some survival training and do extensive periods just defending postions" This will allow you to train BJJ later in life.

"Win some times or survive all of the time." is what they say.

I can see this happening to a lot of people any thoughts?

Never the less the Gracie have done it again --- They got us discussing the relevance of Gracie BJJ. Hats of to you Ryron and Rener your Dad should be proud.


11/1/12 4:38 PM
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deepu
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Edited: 11/01/12 4:39 PM
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karmarep - they go on to say ..."add in some survival training and do extensive periods just defending postions" This will allow you to train BJJ later in life.


This to me is obvious for anyone who's been doing Bjj a while. You get older and more broken, so sparring with the young competitors results in a lot of this anyway. This being revolutionary and unique to their flavour of Bjj is just marketing.
11/2/12 8:48 AM
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trianglegrrl
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When I watched Galvao and Ryron live, it really annoyed me, because I wanted to see a finish. But even then I do remember saying to Señor Stables at the time how impressed I was at Ryron's ability to recover guard against someone like Galvao.

Remember Vinny's armbar escape at ADCC, and how everybody went nuts when he finally got out? The ability to defend is just as much a part of jiu-jitsu as the ability to attack. A beautiful defence or escape might not be as glamorous as a beautiful attack, but it is still fun to watch.

I do think that it's marketing BS about it being good for self defence, but there's a lot to be said for training longevity.

I'd love to see the rematch.
11/2/12 11:39 AM
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Claude Patrick
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Edited: 11/02/12 11:54 AM
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hehe i tell you guys one thing who ever won this one is up to debate but i have gotta be the god damn king of starting stimulating discussions.. so kudos to myself for that...

flash forward to a few points

1- ryron is bigger that andre

2- its silly to think anyone will blow through ryron the guys trains with some top level talent xande included so he is not "just teaching classes" as i have so often heard now... he was at mark munoz's spot when i was there training so i can attest to the guys talent

3-sport bjj is so far from fighting now that its pointless to try to debate its street effectiveness and i always laugh inside when guy who cant fight thier way out of phone booth wanna talk about STREET situations :)

its funny but also quite dangerous because some poor guy is going to get himself really hurt..if you ever get in a real fight.. a ReaL one not a challenge match or disagreement where your buddies will break it up if someone gets too badly hurt then its nothing you wanna relive whether you win or loose and ill leave that at that..

4-sport bjj and the art have diverged greatly in the past few years.. much like judo or other martial arts that turn to sports this is the discussion at hand.. Ryron isn't going to win many high level matches with that approach in a ibjjf event but very FEW guys have his understanding of the art..
take wallid for example.. back in the day a sport Bjj BEAST.. he even tapped royce gracie out in that match in 1998 but id safely say most of us would rather be royce technique wise..
11/2/12 11:41 AM
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Claude Patrick
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since we talking about wallid.. here is the man in one of the emost epic match endings EVER
11/2/12 1:14 PM
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deepu
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I'd take Wallid's guard passing skills over Royce's! Maybe even more.
11/2/12 1:17 PM
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Claude Patrick
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not fighting ability... no doubt he was a beast in his time.. but i think for the masses jiujitsu is about defense.. and wallid never showed little if any defensive ability in mma anyway.. didn't watch enough of his bjj matches to speak so maybe should shut my mouth..

easy to be the hammer tough to be the nail
11/2/12 1:30 PM
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deepu
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I didn't watch any of Royce's bjj matches so not sure lol. Wallid always had a hell of a top game.

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