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UnderGround Forums >> Women in UFC a huge leap for women's sports?


10/29/12 8:21 AM
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Bearded Collie Herds Orca
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Edited: 10/29/12 10:54 AM
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^ Very good point, but there is a difference you're ignoring that throws a huge wrench in your comparison and logic. Basketball has an absolute metric that doesn't vary depending on whether the athletes are male or female - hoop height. The excitement of the game's individual plays, and the degree to which the athletes' athleticism shines through, largely depends on the ratios of the players' heights to the hoop height. There are other physical metrics in basketball that similarly affect excitement but hoop height is the most obvious. <br /><br />MMA has no such absolute yardstick. The main factors that determine excitement in MMA are RELATIVE; that is, they are values that reflect something common to BOTH athletes. Athlete speed, technical prowess, strength...the impact these have on the match is due to the ratio of each athlete's qualities to the other athlete's qualities, not the ratio of these qualities to something else, like a hoop. A better comparison sport for mma would therefore be tennis, in which male and female athletes share about equal fan attention (right?).
10/29/12 8:22 AM
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CindyO
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Brian J DSouza - Now women will have the same chance to earn sub-standard wages and give up all their rights as the men in the UFC already enjoy. You've come a long way, baby!

Good Lord, all you do is cry!

 

Cindy

10/29/12 8:22 AM
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Bearded Collie Herds Orca
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^I said "Very good point" to Glovegate, not Upperbutt. Don't lump me in with that moron.
10/29/12 11:39 AM
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Ryan Black
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I fully support WMMA in the UFC.

Would like to see female fights in the UFC before they add a smaller toddlerweight class. I would much rather see two 115lb. 5'2" females go at it than I would male fighters of that size. That's just me though. Phone Post
10/29/12 11:46 AM
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BaraoKix
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Dana is doing this solely because of Rouseys popularity...
10/29/12 12:10 PM
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Ornoku
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I don't have any real issue with WMMA, I just don't think its a smart move for the UFC. People think these cards are watered down already. Imagine adding all these women that no one has heard of or cares about. It's not going to help the UFC at all. What happens if Rousey loses? I just think this is way to early to jump into this, and it might end up hurting the UFC a lot more than they think. I might be wrong, I just feel like they're trying to cash in on Rousey. They're a business there's nothing wrong with that I just feel like it lessens the integrity of the UFC.
10/29/12 12:18 PM
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dangerboy12
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Ornoku - I don't have any real issue with WMMA, I just don't think its a smart move for the UFC. People think these cards are watered down already. Imagine adding all these women that no one has heard of or cares about. It's not going to help the UFC at all. What happens if Rousey loses? I just think this is way to early to jump into this, and it might end up hurting the UFC a lot more than they think. I might be wrong, I just feel like they're trying to cash in on Rousey. They're a business there's nothing wrong with that I just feel like it lessens the integrity of the UFC.

This is exactly what they are trying to do.

The only people I want to see Rousey fight are the 2 people who finished ahead of her in the Olympics and Worlds. It's clear that the talent is low when some someone from a single discipline can come in and use only that discipline and destroy everyone she comes across.

If she's beating everyone with only Judo, lets see her fight other Judoka.
10/29/12 1:21 PM
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Brian J DSouza
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...all you do is cry!


Sorry, are you actually responding to a real point someone made, or just trolling people with straw man arguments?

10/29/12 1:29 PM
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BigEyedFish
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how is this significant for all sports? People that arent interested in MMA dont know who Ronda Rousey is.

This is good for womens mma and that is it.

Its like asking if fighter x's entry into womens boxing is a huge leap for sports - it isnt. It means nothing in the grand scheme.
10/29/12 1:45 PM
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morse
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Nexuscrawlers - 

i love women's mma. they put on great fights. all of the invicta cards have been great cards. there is a lot of talent at the lower weights. too bad everyone thinks 135 and 145 are the main divisions. tons of talent in the 100-115 range.


+1

10/29/12 1:59 PM
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DiscipleDojo
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People who don't think there is enough "depth" for WMMA to be viable usually can not even name 10 WMMA fighters. In other words, the lack of perceived depth is due to their ignorance, not an actual lack of depth. WMMA has as much depth as MMA did back in the late 90s.

And comparisons to the WNBA are poor examples because there are things that make basketball exciting for most viewers which women players are not physiologically able to do (dunks, hang time, palming the ball, etc.) thus WNBA uses smaller balls and the dynamic is totally different. A better comparison would be Women's Tennis or Gymnastics. But even those aren't great parallels as in WMMA and MMA the rules and skillsets are the same and there is no difference in the fights other than the gender of those competing.

People who "just don't like watching girls get beat up" are in the same boat as people who label MMA as "human cockfighting" or "too violent." If you can't appreciate Kedzie/Carano, Tate/Rousey, or the Invicta cards you are simply not a real fan of MMA.

You don't have to like WMMA. But at least embrace your bias and paint "Just Bleed" on your chest.

10/29/12 1:59 PM
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BuyTheTicketTakeTheRide
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Goderson Silva - Do not want to see women fight. It is horrible. Phone Post
This. Phone Post
10/29/12 2:04 PM
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dangerboy12
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People who don't think there is enough "depth" for WMMA to be viable usually can not even name 10 WMMA fighters. In other words, the lack of perceived depth is due to their ignorance, not an actual lack of depth. WMMA has as much depth as MMA did back in the late 90s.

And comparisons to the WNBA are poor examples because there are things that make basketball exciting for most viewers which women players are not physiologically able to do (dunks, hang time, palming the ball, etc.) thus WNBA uses smaller balls and the dynamic is totally different. A better comparison would be Women's Tennis or Gymnastics. But even those aren't great parallels as in WMMA and MMA the rules and skillsets are the same and there is no difference in the fights other than the gender of those competing.

People who "just don't like watching girls get beat up" are in the same boat as people who label MMA as "human cockfighting" or "too violent." If you can't appreciate Kedzie/Carano, Tate/Rousey, or the Invicta cards you are simply not a real fan of MMA.

You don't have to like WMMA. But at least embrace your bias and paint "Just Bleed" on your chest.


I like to see clean KO's. There is a good a chance of seeing a dunk in an NBA game as their is a clean KO in WMMA.

I like to see good defensive fighting. Womens MMA is all about offense, because most of them can't hurt each other.

Seriously, it's just not anywhere close to the level of men fighting. Yeah, it's exciting, but so is tough man.
10/29/12 2:55 PM
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Nexuscrawlers
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Goderson Silva -
gillyoteen - 
Goderson Silva -  Do not want to see women fight. It is horrible. Phone Post

that's, like, your opinion, dude

senator mccain doesn't like male mma because it's human cockfighting

every single poll I've seen on this site, the vast majority say they enjoy watching women fight, so, too bad


Yes it's my opinion, and i won't be watching the cards with the women on. And yes i know others will but heyyy whatever floats your boat.
So if they put Anderson silva and Rhonda rousey on Tue same card you would just not watch the whole card just because there is a wmma fight? Phone Post
10/29/12 3:04 PM
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DiscipleDojo
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If that's a tough question, then I don't see how you could claim to be an MMA fan. I simply can't understand this mindset.

10/29/12 3:24 PM
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DiscipleDojo
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When did you start watching MMA? Women have been fighting since the beginning; they just haven't gotten the exposure. Debi Purcell is a great example. And if you equate MMA with "beating the sh*t out of each other" then I could see your point. But anyone who thinks women can't display equal amount of martial arts skill as men is simply wrong. Go watch some highlights from Kery Vera, Michelle Waterson, Julie Kedzie, Miesha Tate, Ronda Rousey, Gina Carano, Cyborg, or any of the Invicta fighters and you'll see that they are incredibly skilled and their fights are just as entertaining and fast-paced (if not more so) than the average male MMA card.

If you're just looking for Rock'em Sock'em Robots type fights, then of course few women will be able to deliver (Gina and Cyborg being exceptions). But since it's MIXED martial arts, all aspects of the game need to be taken into account. And when that's done, the women definitely hold their own. If someone can't appreciate that, then I can't help but considering them to be in the John McCain camp when it comes to MMA. There's no OBJECTIVE reason for being against WMMA. It just comes down to taste; which is fine...but I'm going to respectfully criticize it as I would someone who argues against all MMA because it's too violent or boring for their personal tastes.

 

10/29/12 5:06 PM
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hockey fighter
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One or 2 woman's fights per card MAX.

YEA* Phone Post
10/29/12 7:47 PM
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DiscipleDojo
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Goderson Silva - 
DiscipleDojo - 

When did you start watching MMA? Women have been fighting since the beginning; they just haven't gotten the exposure. Debi Purcell is a great example. And if you equate MMA with "beating the sh*t out of each other" then I could see your point. But anyone who thinks women can't display equal amount of martial arts skill as men is simply wrong. Go watch some highlights from Kery Vera, Michelle Waterson, Julie Kedzie, Miesha Tate, Ronda Rousey, Gina Carano, Cyborg, or any of the Invicta fighters and you'll see that they are incredibly skilled and their fights are just as entertaining and fast-paced (if not more so) than the average male MMA card.

If you're just looking for Rock'em Sock'em Robots type fights, then of course few women will be able to deliver (Gina and Cyborg being exceptions). But since it's MIXED martial arts, all aspects of the game need to be taken into account. And when that's done, the women definitely hold their own. If someone can't appreciate that, then I can't help but considering them to be in the John McCain camp when it comes to MMA. There's no OBJECTIVE reason for being against WMMA. It just comes down to taste; which is fine...but I'm going to respectfully criticize it as I would someone who argues against all MMA because it's too violent or boring for their personal tastes.

 


Around 2004, watched first even being Pride but was sometimes hard to find streams as i am in europe. Mostly watched cage rage and life was made when the UFC came to setanta sports i have watched one woman fight and that's Carano Vs Cyborg...

but yeah WMMA has not been in the main orgs like you said that's why you can not say i'm not a true MMA fan.

If this weren't the internet age, I would be more open to your position, Goderson. But thanks to Youtube you can watch the highest level women fighters anytime you like. If you've only watched Carano/Cyborg then you DEFINITELY HAVE NOT seen the best WMMA fights. I'm not saying you're dumb or a bad person or anything like that. I'm simply saying that if you appreciate mixed MARTIAL ARTS, then I can't understand how you wouldn't appreciate WMMA simply because they're women.

 

@dangerboy12, are clean KO's the only reason you watch MMA? I love skillful striking and think many KOs are brilliant...but if all you want to see is striking, why not stick with K-1? I love seeing a slick submission just as much as a good KO...and WMMA fights have produced some incredibly slick ones (see the last Invicta card for multiple examples!). Not everyone will like every style of fighting--I love Machida's style, but I know many people hate it--but I would never say that people whose styles I don't like should not be on UFC cards. That's what I don't understand about people who are so anti-WMMA. It makes them come across as mouth-breathers who only want to fighters to "JUST BLEED!!!" (even if this isn't the case, it's how it sounds to me when I hear many of the anti-WMMA arguments on here).

10/30/12 10:57 AM
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dangerboy12
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no I was just using you argument against you. There are things women can't do in MMA that the men can. Just like there are things WNBA players can't do that NBA players can. The talent difference is just enormous.

If you can't understand why someone can like a sport when men compete, but not care for it when women compete, then you really don't understand the dynamics of sports and competition.

Hell, there are people who don't like college sports because the skill levels are low. There are MMA fans who don't like low level MEN'S MMA either.

When it comes to sports, a lot of fans want to be more than entertained. They want to be enlightened. They want to see the best. There is not a single woman on the planet who could beat the 500th ranked man in her weight division. Hell, I'm not sure lots of them wouldn't lose to the average Joe off the street.

It is simply about talent level. I like watching Women's MMA, but I'm just not gonna pay for it. There honestly may not be any women's sport I would pay to see, and I am a huge sports fan.
10/30/12 11:15 AM
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Nexuscrawlers
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do the people opposed to WMMA also not like Ammy MMA?

10/30/12 11:19 AM
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dangerboy12
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do the people opposed to WMMA also not like Ammy MMA?


I "like" women's MMA and Amateur MMA about the same. I won't pay to watch either one.

The only positive Amateur MMA has is the potential of seeing a future contender.
10/30/12 2:26 PM
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DiscipleDojo
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dangerboy12 - no I was just using you argument against you. There are things women can't do in MMA that the men can. Just like there are things WNBA players can't do that NBA players can. The talent difference is just enormous.

If you can't understand why someone can like a sport when men compete, but not care for it when women compete, then you really don't understand the dynamics of sports and competition.

Hell, there are people who don't like college sports because the skill levels are low. There are MMA fans who don't like low level MEN'S MMA either.

When it comes to sports, a lot of fans want to be more than entertained. They want to be enlightened. They want to see the best. There is not a single woman on the planet who could beat the 500th ranked man in her weight division. Hell, I'm not sure lots of them wouldn't lose to the average Joe off the street.

It is simply about talent level. I like watching Women's MMA, but I'm just not gonna pay for it. There honestly may not be any women's sport I would pay to see, and I am a huge sports fan.

Again, I just can't understand how anyone could claim that Kedzie, Coenan, Tate, Rousey, etc. are less talented than male fighters. Physically weaker? Sure. But MMA has ALWAYS been about skill over strength (as Royce proved definitively), and the level of skill that the highest caliber WMMA fighters display is every bit as good as anything you'll see on most UFC cards.

10/30/12 2:28 PM
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DiscipleDojo
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Glovegate - 
DiscipleDojo - 

If that's a tough question, then I don't see how you could claim to be an MMA fan. I simply can't understand this mindset.


It's called voting with your dollars.  The country was relatively free, last time I checked.

If I have to miss a few cards to prove to them that I don't want to pay to see wmma then so be it.  It's not malice, it's just apathy.  I don't want to pay to watch a 70% strength, speed, agility and skill league.

I wish them all the very best but in their own league, not the UFC.


So then is it safe to assume that you never watched or supported Strikeforce?

10/30/12 3:22 PM
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dangerboy12
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dangerboy12 - no I was just using you argument against you. There are things women can't do in MMA that the men can. Just like there are things WNBA players can't do that NBA players can. The talent difference is just enormous.

If you can't understand why someone can like a sport when men compete, but not care for it when women compete, then you really don't understand the dynamics of sports and competition.

Hell, there are people who don't like college sports because the skill levels are low. There are MMA fans who don't like low level MEN'S MMA either.

When it comes to sports, a lot of fans want to be more than entertained. They want to be enlightened. They want to see the best. There is not a single woman on the planet who could beat the 500th ranked man in her weight division. Hell, I'm not sure lots of them wouldn't lose to the average Joe off the street.

It is simply about talent level. I like watching Women's MMA, but I'm just not gonna pay for it. There honestly may not be any women's sport I would pay to see, and I am a huge sports fan.

Again, I just can't understand how anyone could claim that Kedzie, Coenan, Tate, Rousey, etc. are less talented than male fighters. Physically weaker? Sure. But MMA has ALWAYS been about skill over strength (as Royce proved definitively), and the level of skill that the highest caliber WMMA fighters display is every bit as good as anything you'll see on most UFC cards.


Skill and talent are 2 different things. Very different.

A person with zero MMA training can have tons of natural MMA talent, but no skill. They can have power, quickness, stamina, chin, etc, but not know how to properly throw a punch or anything about grappling.

A person with years of MMA training can have tons of skill, but little to no talent. They can have technical striking, great grappling, good defense, know all the techiques etc, but they are slow, weak, have cardio problems, and a glass jaw.

Women as a whole are less talented than men in MMA terms. It's not an opinion. It's a fact.
10/30/12 3:29 PM
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DiscipleDojo
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"They can have technical striking, great grappling, good defense, know all the techiques etc, but they are slow, weak, have cardio problems, and a glass jaw."

 

No, this is not a "fact" at all. It's an ill-formed opinion based on lack of firsthand knowledge.


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