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BJJGround Forum >> Demoting people from other academies


11/1/12 1:42 PM
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El Refe
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It happened to a friend of mine, he got his purple at a gb, competed at that rank, then he went to a different school and was told that by their standard he was blue, funny thing is he competed against 1 of their guys and did ok, lost by a point or 2, took him another 2 years to get his purple back.
They also took stripes away from another friend. Phone Post
11/1/12 2:03 PM
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bgup619
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We have never demoted anyone coming from another school to train with us. I dont think my professor would ever do that. We did have a guy start training with us that was from UAE, he got his blue belt there. He continuously told us about his lineage and how he travelled to Brazil to train, blah blah blah. Long story short he sucked balls and our white belts ate his ass up. He lasted about 4 months and quit.. These things tend to work themselves out.

Personally I would never disrespect a former instructor by agreeing to remove a belt they tied around my waist.
11/1/12 2:37 PM
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mrgoodarmbar
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Ridiculous...
With respect to the "growing into the belt" thing... I'm not really a fan of it, but I think I understand where it's coming from. There's bjj understanding and then there's execution... Sometimes guys are really good bjj thinkers and understand the concepts really well, but there execution is subpar. I think these 2 paths can really diverge. Sometimes the execution is a bit behind the actual belt level, but I do think that when someone wears a belt there's an expectation that they have of themselves and that others expect of them and I think that mentally they are able to rise to those expectations partly by having that belt.

There have been educational experiments where students are either praised and given A's or negatively reinforced and given B's and C's. (There was a very well know experiment in England). It was spread over gender, race, etc. The following year, those that were given A's did indeed become real A students. Those that were given B's became B students. You become what you are told that you are....It's a powerful thing. I'd like to think that this is the concept behind "...growing into it..." Knowledge-wise they are there, and they're in the ballpark of the next belt but they lack either the athleticism or mental confidence to really execute at the expected level. If they had the belt, they would become that belt in the execution end of it.
11/1/12 4:55 PM
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CJJScout
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We had a guy come in that was a brown belt in another grappling art. He wore his brown belt one class before the instructor told him to take it off and put on a white belt. He got promoted to blue pretty quick, and when he moved back to where he came from he was still blue.

Nice guy, but he certainly wasn't a BJJ brown belt.
11/1/12 6:33 PM
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Moke
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Edited: 11/01/12 6:37 PM
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I think if you competed at that belt should play a role, but in the end I think if you wish to train at a particular academy, you should be subject to their particular standards. If you walk in with a brown but are getting worked by purples and have a hard time with the blues, then a demotion is in order. I'm sure that school doesn't want people coming in and tooling that guy and then assuming he's an example of a brown at that school.
11/1/12 7:50 PM
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anonymousone
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If they clearly arent the belt level demote them. If they just arent that good for the belt but arent TERRIBLE, tell them they can either keep the belt on in class and not compete, but if they want to compete and represent the team they need to demote themselves
11/1/12 8:12 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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I think tbis is wby a school sbould have a reference or technical curriculum. if a guy can meet those requirements for the most part.....no problem. If he cant he should feel onclined to drop on his own when shortcomings are pointed out. If he wishes to compete under new school the instructor can insist on a reduction otherwise its no big deal if it was a ranking from a legit instructor/school.....he just wont see another promotjon from new instructor until he meets the satndards.

Notice i specified techinal skill.....if he has that but is getting steamrolled at new place with hardcore athletes that he cant keep up with for more than few rounds or something similar than thats a different issue and not one of bis particular rank.

one of the best points about jiujitsu is its open system where instructors can develop students in thier own system, or curriculum.....hopefully once a basic foundation is met. And if a person trained under a legit instructor, but doesnt meet a new instructors standards, they should have most of the fundamentals and still be functional......juzt not gonna see a promotion until he does and wbo is one instructor to judge another legit instructor's rank requirements?

it sort of like a technical rating in a particular carreer field in the military. Everyone in the carrer field should have certain fundamental skill and knowledge and advacment in rank required ad ancement in technical skills and knowledge. But upon reassigment/tra sfer that person may not be adept at other specific duty stations requirements thus requiring station training and certification.

fuk FRAT ON MY PHONE!
11/1/12 9:53 PM
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mrgoodarmbar
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I think a lot of the ideas here overlook that OP stated that the guy came from a "legit" school. I guess we'd need to open a discussion on what that means. Does it just mean that the instructor isn't a charleton with made up credentials? Or is it a school also a place where the guys are by and large appropriately ranked according to your expectations of calling another school "legit".

The previous instructor has been with him on his journey up to that point and evaluated him and most aware of both his strengths and weaknesses. If that was the rank given by the instructor of the "legit" school, then that's his rank. End of story.
11/1/12 9:56 PM
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mrgoodarmbar
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Sorry for posting again so quickly but some people take a year off or more for whatever reason injury, family, peronsal, etc.... Sometimes they're pretty bad when they come back. It takes them a while to get back into it..timing, etc. They don't get demoted... but they def can't hang with people at the same belt level.
11/1/12 9:59 PM
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Baroquen Record
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mrgoodarmbar - Sorry for posting again so quickly but some people take a year off or more for whatever reason injury, family, peronsal, etc.... Sometimes they're pretty bad when they come back. It takes them a while to get back into it..timing, etc. They don't get demoted... but they def can't hang with people at the same belt level.
This is where I'm gonna be once my schedule does down and I can train again. Phone Post
11/1/12 10:38 PM
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Sgt. Slaphead
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you are what you were ranked by a legit instructor. if you dont meet the standards of new instructor.....dont expect promotions until you meet standards and dont expect to represent in competition unless willing to do so at whatever rank new instructor rates you.


seems simple enough
11/2/12 1:59 AM
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checkuroil
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Remember we are taking blue belts demoted to white. Who cares about a crappy blue belt Phone Post
11/2/12 3:18 AM
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SpiderManBJJ
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I train with Cesar Gracie and saw and heard of him demoting a few guys.Personally,I thought he did them a favor because our school is pretty competitive for belts and all of the guys that think they should be his belt level would constantly be asking him to roll.And then roll with him like its the finals at Worlds.LOL. A while ago I took a break of a few years and briefly joined a different school.I knew I wasn't the level of the belt that I received from Cesar so I demoted myself before joining the other school.The odd thing was that weeks later I to well above the average level of that belt but the instructor had "Belt tests" that cost money. LOL
11/2/12 4:17 AM
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Mayweedz
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What if the guy is in their 40s or older. Should they be expected to be able to steam roll through 20 some y/o athletes whom are of a slightly lower rank even if they have good technique but decreased physical aptitude.
11/2/12 10:42 AM
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The Gimp
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Mayweedz - What if the guy is in their 40s or older. Should they be expected to be able to steam roll through 20 some y/o athletes whom are of a slightly lower rank even if they have good technique but decreased physical aptitude.

No.

If you have a 45-year-old, 160 pound blue belt, he should be able to dominate most 45-year-old, 160 pound white belts.

If you have a 45-year-old, 160 pound purple, he should be able to dominate most 45-year-old, 160 pound blue belts.

There is no guarantee that a 45-year-old 160 pound purple can dominate, say, a 20-year-old blue, or a white belt who wrestled in a good college program, or even a 200 pound 45 year old white belt.

Your belt level reflects a lot of different things: your technical knowledge, your ability to apply that knowledge while rolling, your physical attributes, your teaching ability, your time in.
11/2/12 12:00 PM
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Daniel/CGJJ
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We had a purple belt walk in one day. He was from an affiliated school, beit another country.

He was utter shit. Got clowned by the white belts and absolutely murdered by the blues.

He quit.

Then, about a year later I see him compete at the Amsterdam Open as a WHITE belt.

When I walked up to him he looked at the floor.

Very strange situation.



11/2/12 3:22 PM
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Team Python
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I have had people come from other schools that had rank that did not meet my standards however I did not demote them but they knew right away their rank did not fit in with the others. These guys had a lot of catching up and they knew it was going to take them longer to promote to the next belt.
11/2/12 8:05 PM
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TBoy2
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Edited: 11/02/12 8:08 PM
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<blockquote>Mayweedz - What if the guy is in their 40s or older. Should they be expected to be able to steam roll through 20 some y/o athletes whom are of a slightly lower rank even if they have good technique but decreased physical aptitude.</blockquote>

Ha, that is my question for myself. How good should I be? I am 45 and train twice a week. I am very close to my brown and do well at my school run by a brown. I do have problems with a couple young 20 something competition purples. Part of it is age and part of it is I am not in the same shape as them.

With a family and work I don't have time to train allot. I roll technical and easily handle whites and blues unless they have a strong wrestling background. I do ok with purples except for a couple really good competition ones. These 2 have given a few brown and blacks a hard time.

I definitely have the technical knowledge and mat time 16+ years. Plus I am a black belt in Judo and can easily toss most people outside of a few college level wrestlers. Oh, and I am constantly getting better and improving my game. I wish I knew what I do now ten years ago.

So to the black belts,

If I was a brown and training at another school how good should I be. What age/belt levels should I be able to dominate or well with?
11/3/12 3:45 AM
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Team Python
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TBoy2 - <blockquote>Mayweedz - What if the guy is in their 40s or older. Should they be expected to be able to steam roll through 20 some y/o athletes whom are of a slightly lower rank even if they have good technique but decreased physical aptitude.</blockquote>

Ha, that is my question for myself. How good should I be? I am 45 and train twice a week. I am very close to my brown and do well at my school run by a brown. I do have problems with a couple young 20 something competition purples. Part of it is age and part of it is I am not in the same shape as them.

With a family and work I don't have time to train allot. I roll technical and easily handle whites and blues unless they have a strong wrestling background. I do ok with purples except for a couple really good competition ones. These 2 have given a few brown and blacks a hard time.

I definitely have the technical knowledge and mat time 16+ years. Plus I am a black belt in Judo and can easily toss most people outside of a few college level wrestlers. Oh, and I am constantly getting better and improving my game. I wish I knew what I do now ten years ago.

So to the black belts,

If I was a brown and training at another school how good should I be. What age/belt levels should I be able to dominate or well with?

This would be hard to answer because every black belt has different standards. For instance at my school my students have to be profecient in three categories, self defense, vale-tudo and competition. So my requirements can be higher than a different school. I have come across purple belts that could not do a simple hip throw or blue belts that could not defend against punches so it was obvious they come from schools that have different standards. If they were to join my school it would be mandatory for them to be held back on rank until they caught up on the curriculum.
11/4/12 10:42 AM
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AFRock22
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I think it should be really rare and situational. What if you have just received your blue belt, and now still get beat by some white belts at a new school? Technically that doesn't mean you are a white belt, just a new blue. Also some people come back from taking time off for whatever reason, and are obviously not always going to be at the level they left at. But if an instructor thinks it is best to demote anyone, I'm sure its not a quick, impulsive decision. It should be done after spending a considerable amount of time with the individual, and checking his/her creds.
11/4/12 11:41 AM
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Jitz93
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zunk1 - 

thats pretty disrespectful. but here is a followup question. how long should you train somewhere before you compete under their name? lets say someone trained 5 years somewhere but changed gyms a month before a major comp. then you are sort of repping them when they haven't done much for your game?

 

 


Good question. I am also interested in everybody opinion on this topic since I may soon find my self in this position. Is there a proper etiquette when changing school?
11/4/12 1:33 PM
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torquemada
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Baroquen Record -
mrgoodarmbar - Sorry for posting again so quickly but some people take a year off or more for whatever reason injury, family, peronsal, etc.... Sometimes they're pretty bad when they come back. It takes them a while to get back into it..timing, etc. They don't get demoted... but they def can't hang with people at the same belt level.
This is where I'm gonna be once my schedule does down and I can train again. Phone Post
Same here. I've been off the mats for a year and will start eventually at a new school entirely.

It's going to be ugly, fren. Phone Post
11/4/12 7:46 PM
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SidRon
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onyx2002 - Had someone tell me that a three stripe white belt went to a place here and they took off a stripe!!!! Who cares about a stripe on a white belt. I could understand if they didn't use stripes at the new academy but to take one stripe is just a power trip imo.

LMAO at demoting a white belt by a stripe. Either that instructor has an amazingly nuanced sense of differentiation between various levels of white belts or they are a complete dick.
11/4/12 11:29 PM
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Akston
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Serves no real purpose.  Just let them grow into the rank.  Instructor ego does nothing more than impede the progression of students.  Rank "standards" are completely subjective and arbitrary anyway.  If you respect your instructor, wear the rank you are given, if someone seems "sub par" to your standards as an instructor it shouldn't even be an issue.  Teach them as you would anyone else and help them progress.  Then promote them when they reach whatever hash mark you have set.

11/5/12 12:09 AM
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OxymoronicalAmbiguity
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